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On December 08 2010 09:18 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well I suppose that works quite well.
Man, I miss the days of 10 Rax Gas where I could rally a marauder to the zerg main and kill their first units and apply never ending pressure...
It does well for me, at least. But I always insist on pressure when I play, and vs toss i find stim pushes the most abusive vs anything but 3 gate robo or 4 gate. Coupled with bunkers, you can safely expand.
If you want something to try, try a nice stim push. 3/4 of my TvP are variations of a build I see demuslim do, as hes the only pro T i watch vs toss lol
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On December 08 2010 09:18 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well I suppose that works quite well.
Man, I miss the days of 10 Rax Gas where I could rally a marauder to the zerg main and kill their first units and apply never ending pressure...
Aye those were good days....I preferred proxy 9Rax reaper  or 5 Rax Reaper Expand. That was great. Nostalgia all over the place >_>
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I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
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Quick question. Have you encountered Feedback play with this? It seems to me as if with the recent shifts in meta-game and a lot of jinro-inspired Raven into Banshee TvP play, tosses have begun to incorporate feedback very early as a badass defense against harass. I've never really played your build here, but I wonder whether you have come across FB-Protoss counters to this, and can share you experience.
Cheers
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Feedback is dangerous but storm is worse, you need to either cloak and snipe every obs or you need to toggle cloak your banshees until they are low on energy (enough to keep them cloaked through a battle but not be heavily damaged by storm).
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On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote:
I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem.
Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent!
On December 08 2010 22:27 vanTuni wrote:
Quick question. Have you encountered Feedback play with this? It seems to me as if with the recent shifts in meta-game and a lot of jinro-inspired Raven into Banshee TvP play, tosses have begun to incorporate feedback very early as a badass defense against harass. I've never really played your build here, but I wonder whether you have come across FB-Protoss counters to this, and can share you experience.
Cheers
Yep. Feedback is actually not frightening at all. This is just because there are way too many banshees to feedback. Storm is much more devastating for the clumped up banshees. What is annoying however, is feedback on my raven  ugh. Otherwise, feedback is not intimidating. The best counter to that in a situation where you cannot deny detection is to cloak and uncloak to lower energy so that feedback doesn't do much damage, but you can still have enough energy to stay cloaked long enough.
Cheers!
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Banshees are too strong vs Toss we know. It combines the 2 main weak points for toss, anti-air and detection. Tester knows all about this. Incorporate banshees into you play at any point and you'll have success.
The hallucination change and cheaper observer are going to make banshees a little less effective this patch aka scouted earlier so more prep time but not hurt combat efficiency. I really think a stalker buff would fix a ton of Toss problems but I'd rather see a buff to underused units to make the game more diverse
Can feedback cloaked units would be awesome, like "energy sense" so only the templar can attack it. Or maybe make feedback a VERY small AoE for the point of feedbacking 1 cloaked unit.
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On December 09 2010 02:51 blitzkrieger wrote:
Banshees are too strong vs Toss we know. It combines the 2 main weak points for toss, anti-air and detection. Tester knows all about this. Incorporate banshees into you play at any point and you'll have success.
The hallucination change and cheaper observer are going to make banshees a little less effective this patch aka scouted earlier so more prep time but not hurt combat efficiency. I really think a stalker buff would fix a ton of Toss problems but I'd rather see a buff to underused units to make the game more diverse
Can feedback cloaked units would be awesome, like "energy sense" so only the templar can attack it. Or maybe make feedback a VERY small AoE for the point of feedbacking 1 cloaked unit.
You bring up some really great points! Those 3 Protoss buffs really do have a play against banshees....Hallucinate a phoenix for scouting in lieu of an observer for better scouting, get cheaper obs in case detection is needed, and faster phoenix in case you need to. You'll also have a little more gas to spare since obs are cheaper. Wow O.O. NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT PATCH QQ.
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On December 09 2010 02:27 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote:
I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy. DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem. Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent! Cheers!
The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40.
For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?).
The fastest DT's come out around 6:20. So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans.
It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
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On December 09 2010 02:27 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote:
I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy. DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem. Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent! Cheers!
The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40.
For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?).
The fastest DT's come out around 6:20 (no zealots). So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans.
It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
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eh saying that stalker is a counter to banshee is wrong. banshee can kill 2 stalkers by itself
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On December 09 2010 10:13 cskalias.pbe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 02:27 Synystyr wrote:On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote:
I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy. DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem. Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent! Cheers! The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40. For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?). The fastest DT's come out around 6:20 (no zealots). So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans. It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
Very useful to know. I actually did up running into a DT rush today. It was a little dicey, but once I got my raven out, I was in the clear. He was able to get away with a little harass but I had scans to clean up until the raven arrived. It's tough to know which early game pressure might hit you, so good scouting is key! I don't want to delay the factory too much since I do want to get that raven out ASAP. Turrets are unnecessary unless you spot stargate play or DTs you won't be able to hold off, otherwise just bunker down and tech. Thanks for the help and research! It's good stuff to know.
On December 09 2010 10:13 b_unnies wrote:
eh saying that stalker is a counter to banshee is wrong. banshee can kill 2 stalkers by itself
Half right. I'd consider the stalker a soft counter because it shoots air and has the same range as the banshee, but in a 1 on 1, the banshee wins with half health. However with 2 stalkers, the stalkers win with 1 standing. So with similar logic, you want to have at least half as many banshees as he has stalkers to take him head on, not counting the fact that banshees can stack and therefore have more DPS.
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On December 06 2010 14:55 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote:
The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D
Banshee's are really getting its fame now. With the perfect micro, the shoot and scoot on time. It definitely pays off for it, myself as a 1800 toss when I see a banshee I'm forced to through up a forge or robotics as the fear of the banshee devours you. Not just does the starport pay off, it could switch the whole toss's gameplay into a whole new tech switch, which is difficult off 1-2 base.
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On December 09 2010 11:28 SoftSoap wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 14:55 Synystyr wrote:On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote:
The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D Banshee's are really getting its fame now. With the perfect micro, the shoot and scoot on time. It definitely pays off for it, myself as a 1800 toss when I see a banshee I'm forced to through up a forge or robotics as the fear of the banshee devours you. Not just does the starport pay off, it could switch the whole toss's gameplay into a whole new tech switch, which is difficult off 1-2 base.
You'll need detection for sure, just make sure you don't overcommit to it. A mass tech switch would play into my hands. Say, if you went entirely phoenixs + gateway units, I could just MM+Thor my way to a win instead of getting banshees. I'm glad you understand how annoying the banshee is for Protoss and how awesome it is for Terrans though :D
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Honestly, I think the thread title should be change to TvP, how to kill P. yeah banshees are anticollosus, but they're antiground army in general. stalkers are decent against banshees (kinda?), but anything from a gateway (the core of a toss army) will be crushed by banshees.
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As a Protoss player, I can tell you that this is extremely obnoxious to deal with when done correctly (sniping obs+PDD). Infact, replays of me getting owned by this were posted earlier in this thread.
Thanks Ender, especially for not including the ones where I actually beat it  . <3
Anyway, I had been working with him on PvT alot, trying to find a late-game solution for Terran agasint Protoss. I had been suggesting Banshees for a while, and he wasn't down with the idea for a long time. I told him that out of all of Terran's T3 options, a mass of Banshees would be the most obnoxious to deal with by far, because of how miserable Stalkers are agasint air and that a commitment to Phoenix to deal with them leaves you vulnerable to lolstim on the ground.
As a Protoss player, I feel like you can only commit to one tech path (Collosus/Stargate/Templar) on 2 bases efficiently without sacrificing too much Gateway army, especially in this case when you need to spend a ton of on Obs. In the case of 4Port Banshee, I've found Templar to be the best choice. It definitely is an anti-Colossus build
Feedback can be good early agasint the Banshees, but once they get in larger numbers Storm is obviously the way to go. I also feel like Templar is the best choice because if they throw a Raven in, Feedback is there for the ever-obnoxious PDD (or Raven itself). The huge commitment to Banshees leaves their Bio without any Medivacs, so well placed storms are even more devastating.
The best way I've found to deal with this is to sit at home with Templar and fend off then Banshees and try and establish a 3rd. Once the third is up you can try to move out, add on the Stargates for a few Phoenix and eventually Carriers. The combination of Carrier/Templar is extremely tough for Terran to deal with.
Another way to break it would be a huge 6Gate timing push after a 1Gate FE before the Banshees are out. I've tried this before, and it seems like it would work, but I've miscontrolled my army horribly every time I've tried it and lost.
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How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
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On December 09 2010 03:27 Synystyr wrote:
You bring up some really great points! Those 3 Protoss buffs really do have a play against banshees....Hallucinate a phoenix for scouting in lieu of an observer for better scouting, get cheaper obs in case detection is needed, and faster phoenix in case you need to. You'll also have a little more gas to spare since obs are cheaper. Wow O.O. NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT PATCH QQ.
Cheer up we might get that mech buff we've all been wanting
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On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote:
How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead.
What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
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On December 10 2010 06:24 [MLG]GCA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote:
How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes. Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead. What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
Right on. Also, if I see phoenixs, I'll pull my army back and prep for a couple rounds of Vikings. They build rather quickly and are cheaper than banshees. This does two things:
1. Steals aggro away from the banshees and tank the phoenix damage, leaving my banshees unharmed.
2. Kills Phoenixs AND Colossi with ease. It's a matter of engaging smartly, I'll link a couple replays if you'd like to see that in action. Focus fire the phoenix with your marines also. The goal is to eliminate any threat to your banshees so that they can win the game for you.
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EPT
