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On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote:
I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station.
It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees.
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On December 05 2010 14:50 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote:
I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station. It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees.
What units do you use to pressure the toss the scv and marines?
I dont know how id be able to pressure with a gas less 1 rax expand.
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On December 05 2010 14:59 heyyouyesyou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 14:50 Synystyr wrote:On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote:
I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station. It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees. What units do you use to pressure the toss the scv and marines? I dont know how id be able to pressure with a gas less 1 rax expand.
Check out the "Applying Early Pressure" tab on the opening post. Those are a couple good options for you. Gas would be added at the normal time of the build, and still be viable for early pressure.
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I don't want to shit all over your build, as I actually like it quite a bit, but here are a couple things that can really mess a Terran FE up.
1) Not including steps of war - fast blink stalkers - I almost never see this, but it has happened to me before, I go for a FE, they super tech to blink stalkers and get an obs and they blink straight into your main ignoring your bunkered up front, most likley gg.
2) 3gate robo warp prism play - they warp in some zealots into your mains minerals and if you weaken your bunkers to go fight them, they roll your front with an immortal/gateway army. Really hard to stop if your doing a FE and depending on those bunkers.
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Been playing with it more. I like it a lot, even if it may not be the most stable in the world the way I've been doing it, its just so damn fun to play. Mixing in a Raven or two and some Vikings to snipe Obs is huge.
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On December 05 2010 15:07 statikg wrote:
I don't want to shit all over your build, as I actually like it quite a bit, but here are a couple things that can really mess a Terran FE up.
1) Not including steps of war - fast blink stalkers - I almost never see this, but it has happened to me before, I go for a FE, they super tech to blink stalkers and get an obs and they blink straight into your main ignoring your bunkered up front, most likley gg.
2) 3gate robo warp prism play - they warp in some zealots into your mains minerals and if you weaken your bunkers to go fight them, they roll your front with an immortal/gateway army. Really hard to stop if your doing a FE and depending on those bunkers.
I've definitely played against this before, and I know to expect it. You can't really go fast blink stalkers and get an obs out before I have at least a banshee with cloak out and marines with Combat shields. Straight up blink stalkers can be a pain. You need to pull workers off and surround while keeping your marines back and killing as many stalkers as you can. The trick here is to delay the stalkers as long as possible to get a couple banshees out. Your starport will be up when they push, so get a banshee out and you'll be okay. It's all about delaying.
Warp Prism play is all about scouting. A good barracks float into their base will tell you all you need. If you see 3 gate robo, you'll want to have marines patrolling the edges of your base to catch that. The push comes with 1 immortal if its fast, and that can be countered with good focus firing and SCVs repairing the bunkers. 2 immortals is too slow, I'll have a banshee out.
Either way, each push is stopped as soon as you get a banshee out and clean up. You'll lose a few workers and might be behind a little, but a quick counter attack with a round of banshees can turn that into your favor.
On December 05 2010 15:28 w_Ender_w wrote:
Been playing with it more. I like it a lot, even if it may not be the most stable in the world the way I've been doing it, its just so damn fun to play. Mixing in a Raven or two and some Vikings to snipe Obs is huge.
Agreed :D Nothing is more fun than watching a helpless Toss deal with 10 cloaked banshees right after their obs gets sniped  So good.
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Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
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On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote:
Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
Very insightful looks into how to play against this build  Hopefully some Protosses will give these ideas a shot and we'll see this build evolve further against different game play! I do have a little bit of trouble with templars but I never really considered ghosts because of the high gas cost...late game though it's a little more affordable. Thanks for the feedback!
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On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote:
Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
We need more posts like this for this forum. I thank your Viking lineage.
Also, Chargelot/Phoenix is one of the major things I struggle against with banshee openings in general. And with the impending patch, I'm thinking this build will catch on even more in general vs Terran (phoenix harass -> shutdown Terran cuteness -> chargelots murdering everything -> stormlot/phoenix if toss didn't somehow win).
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On December 06 2010 02:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote:
Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server. We need more posts like this for this forum. I thank your Viking lineage. Also, Chargelot/Phoenix is one of the major things I struggle against with banshee openings in general. And with the impending patch, I'm thinking this build will catch on even more in general vs Terran (phoenix harass -> shutdown Terran cuteness -> chargelots murdering everything -> stormlot/phoenix if toss didn't somehow win).
Agreed, such an excellent post :D yeah chargelot/phoenix/HT sucks to deal with. With the new patch changes....>_> Phoenix spam is gonna be a pain in the ass xD
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<3 this build.
But i execute it a little differently. Since i like early pressure i do a 2 rax opener and push with about 6-7 rines and 4 scvs. the push hits around 4:30 and i also have an expo built around the time i push.
Then i transition into your build composition.
Playing this build i say is only weak to HT. But you usually kill them before that point. Unless they blind tech. In which case they lose to Cloak.
+ Show Spoiler +Whats nice is when you temp stop banshees for 2 Ravens and PDD during the battle. OMG RAGEQUIT!!! lol
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On December 06 2010 07:06 GinDo wrote:<3 this build. But i execute it a little differently. Since i like early pressure i do a 2 rax opener and push with about 6-7 rines and 4 scvs. the push hits around 4:30 and i also have an expo built around the time i push. Then i transition into your build composition. Playing this build i say is only weak to HT. But you usually kill them before that point. Unless they blind tech. In which case they lose to Cloak. + Show Spoiler +Whats nice is when you temp stop banshees for 2 Ravens and PDD during the battle. OMG RAGEQUIT!!! lol
I'm glad you like it! :D And yeah, a quick early 2 Rax push is very easy to expand behind. It's just a tad risky to me incase you lose your marines and have nothing to defend a counter attack with. HTs with good storms can be a total pain in the ass, but you can just spread your banshees in 5 different directions and kill him that way Fun fun!
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The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy
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On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote:
The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy
Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D
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Remember this: So technically, it's a build that yes, can snipe collosus very well. However, be very very aware that at any point you get 3 or 5 banshees, I would respond with a stargate and pump out phoenixes. In fact, I think that any smart protoss would just throw down a Stargate, because after all you spent resources on an air building. Technically, the protoss player won't be behind if he throws down an air building too.
I think Tester did this too where he went Collosus and Phoenixes. The phoenixes help draw fire from other stuff and vikings. And of course, they do kill banshees ...
While I think it's good in all, I *REALLY* think a better option is to make a LOT of Marauders. Collosus does a lot of splash, but it is SO good because collosus in few members CANNOT own maurauders fast enough before they can take out the collosus. That's usually why I choose to go storm tech. It's the same thing against roaches. It can't deal enough fast damage before that ball owns my gateway throwaways...
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That's the only unit you hate? hell im spamming more high temps on terrans as i play from now on, youll hate 2 at that rate lmao.
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now this build may or may not work, but i just want to throw out there that most protoss players know that banshees (esp with ravens) rock stalkers, and will get phoenixes. I know I do.
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I actually encounter this build while going collosus and FE when i spotted terran doing it. i stop all collosus production and when for high templar, i just wan my high templar out asap to feedback. i stop the first push. atk with 5-6 templar with storm. feedback all banshee b4 they cloak and storm one time. no terran unit survive at all. i apologise to the terran cause i lost around 20 supplies while he lost everything.
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One of the pro-tips against fighting templar with feedback (this will prolly be your final push because you WILL lose the next one if he has templar) is toggle cloak until all your energy is gone.
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I have trouble believing that early CC can work vs aggressive players. 4gates, 3gate robo, 3 gate startgate are all dificult to defend on even one base with bunkers. Otherwise, its a strategy I basically have been doing.
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EPT
