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On December 04 2010 04:36 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:24 w_Ender_w wrote:On December 04 2010 03:59 Synystyr wrote:I love all these different options people are coming up with  this is very very good option with an easy abort over to MMM! I like it. I'll have to tally all these up at some point and add it on to the main post. Thank you very much!! Keep it up Glad you like it. I saved the replays from the games we played last night, if you're particularly interested. Its certainly a fun build, and a nice change of pace from the usual pure bio play you're often forced to rely on in the match up. On December 04 2010 03:54 MockHamill wrote:
I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers. Yeah, but these are things you need to take into account no matter what build you do. The nice thing about an FE build is that by the time you need to make a decision on what tech you go you should be able to scout these plays. Edit: Oh and Antisocialmunky, I love your TvZ Marine/Raven build. If people like this kind of build for some alternate playstyles, they ought to check his thread out as well. I support this bolded statement wholeheartedly and yeah, post the replays and I'll definetely take a look!
Lol, I was actually trying to test a Ghost/Banshee strategy for a while but it is way to hard to play. X_X.
I wonder if it would be worth popping a relatively fast BC on a close position map and sit on 3 ports instead of 2. My main objection to 4 port is it requires a ton of gas invested only in production structures off 2 base. Basically something like 3 port->Raven->Fusion Core->Continually BC + 2 Banshee.
That said you could also pop ravens out of a third port for some sort of mass PDD.
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Alrighty, here are a few replays. Some things to note: I believe the build was designed to defeat Colossus play, but in these replays my buddy was trying to see if he could 1 gate FE against it.
One thing I noticed when he was 1 gate FEing is that if I open 2 rax FE and get a Reaper first after tech lab, my bunker aggression is juuuuust too slow to be effective. When I skip Reaper and go straight into Marauder, the bunker aggression can be very potent against a 1 gate FE. So it's really up to you as to what you prefer.
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First game is a bit sloppy, reaper scout + some attempted bunker pushing into the Banshee play. Protoss tries to counter with Templar.
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The second game has me skipping the reaper and just being aggressive with concussive (lolterran). I actually really mishandled it and way overextended my early game aggression but some bunkers and very timely Banshee's saved me and let me roll over the Protoss shortly thereafter.
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This is a fun one. Banshee really lets you exploit terrain, and that's what happens in this Jungle Basin. He attempts to fight the Banshee with Phoenix play. It might be a viable counter, but on a 1 gate FE it seems to come way too late.
So there are a few. The build was still a little clunky for me (mostly because I was kind of winging it instead of following the OP) but it seems like it could actually be pretty strong. Certainly pretty unexpected.
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On December 04 2010 05:06 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Lol, I was actually trying to test a Ghost/Banshee strategy for a while but it is way to hard to play. X_X.
I wonder if it would be worth popping a relatively fast BC on a close position map and sit on 3 ports instead of 2. My main objection to 4 port is it requires a ton of gas invested only in production structures off 2 base. Basically something like 3 port->Raven->Fusion Core->Continually BC + 2 Banshee.
That said you could also pop ravens out of a third port for some sort of mass PDD.
I had one game that went pretty late where I went into BC production on all four ports, but that's not really too relevant to the build as a opener. It could work though, BCs are pretty underused. I'll have to play around with it.
As far as the gas costs on 2 base, when I was sitting on 2 rax/4 port from 2 base and started harassing early with the banshee I was able to spend money and gas pretty efficiently, and get a third up as I pushed once all 4 ports really kicked in. You don't spend much gas anywhere else if you stay MM to support the Banshee it seems.
Ravens are a great idea, just a few for PDD really punish any non-phoenix counter to the Banshee. Additionally, vikings are a great idea. They have no mobile detection beyond Observers, so scanning to snipe Obs out with Vikings or Marines can really help you out.
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Well the viking/cloaked banshee/raven thing was common back in Beta wasn't it?
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On December 04 2010 05:25 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well the viking/cloaked banshee/raven thing was common back in Beta wasn't it?
Yeah, I think so. It's definitely nothing earthshattering, just a little suggestion for people who haven't thought of it.
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On December 04 2010 05:17 w_Ender_w wrote:
Alrighty, here are a few replays. Some things to note: I believe the build was designed to defeat Colossus play, but in these replays my buddy was trying to see if he could 1 gate FE against it.
One thing I noticed when he was 1 gate FEing is that if I open 2 rax FE and get a Reaper first after tech lab, my bunker aggression is juuuuust too slow to be effective. When I skip Reaper and go straight into Marauder, the bunker aggression can be very potent against a 1 gate FE. So it's really up to you as to what you prefer.
[url blocked]
First game is a bit sloppy, reaper scout + some attempted bunker pushing into the Banshee play. Protoss tries to counter with Templar.
[url blocked]
The second game has me skipping the reaper and just being aggressive with concussive (lolterran). I actually really mishandled it and way overextended my early game aggression but some bunkers and very timely Banshee's saved me and let me roll over the Protoss shortly thereafter.
[url blocked]
This is a fun one. Banshee really lets you exploit terrain, and that's what happens in this Jungle Basin. He attempts to fight the Banshee with Phoenix play. It might be a viable counter, but on a 1 gate FE it seems to come way too late.
So there are a few. The build was still a little clunky for me (mostly because I was kind of winging it instead of following the OP) but it seems like it could actually be pretty strong. Certainly pretty unexpected.
Alriiiiiiiiight! I watched them all, and the first thing that popped in my head was: "We have completely different style of play xD". So good though What this tells me, is that this build has extreme FLEXIBILITY!. Early pressure options, multiple points of harassment, different expand styles...it all fits! I really liked it, and I can see you using this as a really powerful build once you clean it up and fit it to your liking
I really liked how you handled phoenix play, slowpushing up your opponents ramp and setting up a turret contain into vikings. This cleaned up the phoenix easily and paved the road for your MM+Banshee to win the game Awesome!
And just to sate my curiosity, what's your Diamond ranking, pointwise?
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I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
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On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again!
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On December 04 2010 06:13 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well. You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again!
Thanks! I admit, I haven't watched your replays yet, I just read through the thread and decided to try it out. That may be why our styles differ so much. Later today I'll watch yours and see if I can mix some stuff in to the way I've been doing it.
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On December 04 2010 06:16 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 06:13 Synystyr wrote:On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well. You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again! Thanks! I admit, I haven't watched your replays yet, I just read through the thread and decided to try it out. That may be why our styles differ so much. Later today I'll watch yours and see if I can mix some stuff in to the way I've been doing it.
Please do It's two different styles, but you'll probably be able to pick a few things out that you like and adjust.
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I think you should change the name of the post, otherwise good players will write it off immediately. I almost didn't open this because the title suggests you're preparing for something you cant predict. Call it a TvP 4 banshee FE or something, but most people are looking for a stable opener and a unit comp that will be favorable against collo, not a blind counter.
I always open gate/stargate/gate/robo now against terran so Im pretty safe against this build. I suppose if the toss insisted on going stalkers they will get rolled miserably. Someday tosses other than nony will understand the power of the phoenix opener vs terran!
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On December 04 2010 05:25 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well the viking/cloaked banshee/raven thing was common back in Beta wasn't it?
NTT used to use the build alot... then he retired... then he unretired and used it alot more... then he retired again.. then he re-unretired and got blasted at dreamhack as zerg
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On December 04 2010 07:36 Jayrod wrote:
I think you should change the name of the post, otherwise good players will write it off immediately. I almost didn't open this because the title suggests you're preparing for something you cant predict. Call it a TvP 4 banshee FE or something, but most people are looking for a stable opener and a unit comp that will be favorable against collo, not a blind counter.
I always open gate/stargate/gate/robo now against terran so Im pretty safe against this build. I suppose if the toss insisted on going stalkers they will get rolled miserably. Someday tosses other than nony will understand the power of the phoenix opener vs terran!
Funny story, that was the pretty much the exact title of this thread before. I changed it because actually, the previous title wasn't much of an eye catcher. This one is better. You're going to at least glance at this thread  Once you start reading, I've got you where I want you :D
Stargate play can be a little scary, but marines do great against phoenix and void rays. I can turret up, and contain you with my bio while getting vikings or MMM out. It's all about good scouting and good tech switches
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I tried it yesterday and was impressive. He reacted to the first starport with quite a lot of stalkers. I thought it was going to fail but wow, pdds are insane....
I dont know if this strategy will be that good, but man, i have learned quite few things about banshees. Thanks :D
Btw, i think banshees have 0 armor.
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On December 04 2010 19:20 maskseller wrote:
I tried it yesterday and was impressive. He reacted to the first starport with quite a lot of stalkers. I thought it was going to fail but wow, pdds are insane....
I dont know if this strategy will be that good, but man, i have learned quite few things about banshees. Thanks :D
Btw, i think banshees have 0 armor.
No problem!! I'm glad things worked out for you and that you were able to win Stalkers aren't much of a problem as long as you have PDD and enough banshees with cloak They're only decent at best vs banshees.
And you're right, banshees do have 0 armor. I don't know where I got the idea they had 1 >_> Thanks!
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I love this build, not only because I haven't lost with it yet despite some games where I lose a good chunk of my early worker count, but also because of the ability of this build to get an expansion and 3 bunkers up to defend vs almost any early non-super-all-in strategies.
If people get smart about banshees, this build can use the same 20 cc 26 3xbunker to get a crazy economy to pump out any other unit composition, whether it be Thor/Banshee, 5 Rax extremely early, MM+Tank, etc.
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I (2100 diamond) play a very similar build in TvP with good success except I don't do the FE and perhaps play more defensively.
I open marine/banshee/raven and play defensively with them (i.e. not going for a timing push). I harass with the banshees and expand as much as possible.
In the lategame, I transition to 4-5 starports building viking/banshee/BCs/marine/raven. Often, I'll move to a good defensive position and try and get them to engage me.
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Synystyr, I've been watching some of your replays. When you build the three extra starports, you have to wait for them to techlab up before you can start Banshee production. What are your thoughts on using the Factory to just keep spamming Techlabs and lifting so that you can hotswap all three Starports simultaneously?
(this seems like it might be particularly strong against heavy pressure because you shave some time off your Banshees.)
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On December 05 2010 03:56 Blyadischa wrote:
I love this build, not only because I haven't lost with it yet despite some games where I lose a good chunk of my early worker count, but also because of the ability of this build to get an expansion and 3 bunkers up to defend vs almost any early non-super-all-in strategies.
If people get smart about banshees, this build can use the same 20 cc 26 3xbunker to get a crazy economy to pump out any other unit composition, whether it be Thor/Banshee, 5 Rax extremely early, MM+Tank, etc.
Exactly, an early CC with bunker defence can give you so many different tech options, so long as you scout well! Nice nice nice
On December 05 2010 04:00 Azzur wrote:
I (2100 diamond) play a very similar build in TvP with good success except I don't do the FE and perhaps play more defensively.
I open marine/banshee/raven and play defensively with them (i.e. not going for a timing push). I harass with the banshees and expand as much as possible.
In the lategame, I transition to 4-5 starports building viking/banshee/BCs/marine/raven. Often, I'll move to a good defensive position and try and get them to engage me.
A different style, but the ideas are similar. I like to be aggressive with a large 2 base timing push personally, but if this works for you, then by all means keep it up!
On December 05 2010 11:01 audeamus wrote:
Synystyr, I've been watching some of your replays. When you build the three extra starports, you have to wait for them to techlab up before you can start Banshee production. What are your thoughts on using the Factory to just keep spamming Techlabs and lifting so that you can hotswap all three Starports simultaneously?
(this seems like it might be particularly strong against heavy pressure because you shave some time off your Banshees.)
You sir, deserve a cookie. This would speed the build up by 25ish seconds, and could be clutch in high pressure situations! Well done and thanks for that excellent input!
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I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station.
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EPT
