Banshees are great units and somewhat durable. They are your "mutalisks"; make sure that you don't lose them in stupid fights and learn when to retreat with them.
Ravens are so good. I always bring 2 or 3. PDD is most probably the best spell in the entire game. There is no spell that NULLIFIES damage completely. Stalkers do 0 damage and so do Phoenixes.
Also, Vikings do really well against Phoenixes. I keep reactors/tech labs on my barracks and swap the reactor barrack with a starport to make Vikings to fight pheonixes.
On May 04 2011 00:06 Velladin wrote: I'd like to add something to this build.
Banshees are great units and somewhat durable. They are your "mutalisks"; make sure that you don't lose them in stupid fights and learn when to retreat with them.
Ravens are so good. I always bring 2 or 3. PDD is most probably the best spell in the entire game. There is no spell that NULLIFIES damage completely. Stalkers do 0 damage and so do Phoenixes.
Also, Vikings do really well against Phoenixes. I keep reactors/tech labs on my barracks and swap the reactor barrack with a starport to make Vikings to fight pheonixes.
While it is a good idea in theory to reactor Vikings out when up against Phoenix, I've found that 4 Starports with Tech Labs will get your a lot of Vikings out quickly. Also, you simply can't afford to produce 4 reactors solely for the purpose of hotswapping and then afford 5+ vikings in production at the same time. You just don't have the funds off 2 bases.
Extra Ravens however never hurt since PDD really is such a powerful spell. You just need to find the right balance between Ravens and Banshees because too many Ravens weakens your army incredibly. I'd say 3 at the most when pushing out.
Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
I actually find that this transition is even better then BC. The two counters to banshees are typically phenoixes which become wasted money and stalkers which marauders do even better against than BCs. If they go HT tech you definintiely need to go into BCs though ;p. It works best if you are doing a heavy banshee harass style rather then a marine/banshee push style because you have so many minerals available.
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
I actually find that this transition is even better then BC. The two counters to banshees are typically phenoixes which become wasted money and stalkers which marauders do even better against than BCs. If they go HT tech you definintiely need to go into BCs though ;p. It works best if you are doing a heavy banshee harass style rather then a marine/banshee push style because you have so many minerals available.
Yeah it is pretty solid. Phoenix can till be annoying against Marauders if there are enough of them out and can pick up the majority of my army. I think a transition into MMMVG could would so long as there are no Colossi or HTs out. Phoenix+Colossi would die to the Viking count and allow me to get Medivacs for my Bio easily. The only problem I have with this transition is that I might be behind on upgrades and if the Protoss has enough Gateways, a quick mass Chargelot warpin could still hurt me a lot. I'll have to watch more TLO games and see how those go =]
Synystyr question for you, why don't you use Thors in this build anymore? I've been doing the original build with the thors since you posted it, the only thing that has beat me is 4 gates I didn’t see early enough to defend against, and mass Stalker/VR, which again was a scouting issue on my part, other than that this has been working for me with great success and I don’t have the timings even close to perfect for it at all.
On May 06 2011 23:13 BONE wrote: Synystyr question for you, why don't you use Thors in this build anymore? I've been doing the original build with the thors since you posted it, the only thing that has beat me is 4 gates I didn’t see early enough to defend against, and mass Stalker/VR, which again was a scouting issue on my part, other than that this has been working for me with great success and I don’t have the timings even close to perfect for it at all.
O_o
I haven't taken out the Thors in the build. There are simply just two different openers that I use because of map dependency. You might be thinking of the second build order I use for maps with open naturals such as Metal or XNC. You can't safely expand with only marines and bunkers on a map like this so I opt for a Stim expand with only 1-2 bunkers instead so I have a stronger, mobile standing army to defend instead. It's not as strong in the midgame push as the 2 Rax 3 Bunker expand build but it gets the job done
Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
Yes I watched this game last night! Thanks again for posting another awesome TLO VOD I appreciate it! Carriers + Motherships are something I have not played against before with this build because usually the game ends before that stage. I believe just massing Vikings to take out the air fleet and then a transition to BC/Banshee would handle it well, but TLO shows us Nukes do the job just as well!! Ghosts have great synergy with this build so I need to learn how to use them properly and implement them in here Thanks again!
I think a great way to integrate ghosts into this build is to build the ghost academy at the same time you take a third. If your initial push fails, try to do some harassment with your ghosts while you're massing a BC army. If you can land a nuke on their pylon field you'll be able to supply-block them for a long time, allowing you to mass your army quicker. APM-wise, ghosts obviously take a lot of APM to harass with effectively, but once you have your third up, you don't really need to devote a lot of attention to macroing your BC army. Remember, it only takes 2 shots from a ghost to take down an observer.
I haven't actually tried this transition yet, just a thought
On May 08 2011 03:59 atirtanadi wrote: I think a great way to integrate ghosts into this build is to build the ghost academy at the same time you take a third. If your initial push fails, try to do some harassment with your ghosts while you're massing a BC army. If you can land a nuke on their pylon field you'll be able to supply-block them for a long time, allowing you to mass your army quicker. APM-wise, ghosts obviously take a lot of APM to harass with effectively, but once you have your third up, you don't really need to devote a lot of attention to macroing your BC army. Remember, it only takes 2 shots from a ghost to take down an observer.
I haven't actually tried this transition yet, just a thought
That's what I was thinking too. Take your third and pick a tech path depending on what Protoss chose to mass in order to deal with your mass Air army. Ghosts for HTs and BCs for Stargate/Stalkers. Eventually you want to have access to everything though. All you really need to do is land 2-3 solid EMPs on the clumped up deathball and that should be more than enough to easily turn the game in your favor.
I'm a gold (on the verge of plat) T and I've been trying this build against my a friend who is a plat toss who loves to go 3 gate robo.
He has been pushing me at the 8:30-8:45 mark with 4 zealots, 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 1 immortal. He has a proxy pylon close by for reinforcements. His push has been crushing me before I can get the Raven out of the first starport.
I've tried both variations of the build against his push: 3 Bunker Marine -- I can hold his inital push but first reinforcing warp in kills me. 2 Bunker MM Stim -- Can't seem to survive even the first push.
Do you have any replays you could post against a push like this for me to study? His force fields combined with the immortal really take down my bunkers fast!
I really love the idea of this build but don't want to try it on ladder till I have all the kinks worked out. I can try to find a replay to post if needed.
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
I use this build all the time, thanks very much for putting it together, Synystyr!
I really like the clever aspects of it, like denying your opponent scouting information. I usually place my marines and Thors where observers can easily see them, baiting them into making Immortals, Colossi, and Zealots.
I saw a discussion earlier about whether a gold level player like myself could use this build effectively. I regularly beat Platinum players with it, so I thought I would post a ladder replay of myself doing just that. Rednox (me, Gold) vs klipz (Platinum).
I'm a gold (on the verge of plat) T and I've been trying this build against my a friend who is a plat toss who loves to go 3 gate robo.
He has been pushing me at the 8:30-8:45 mark with 4 zealots, 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 1 immortal. He has a proxy pylon close by for reinforcements. His push has been crushing me before I can get the Raven out of the first starport.
I've tried both variations of the build against his push: 3 Bunker Marine -- I can hold his inital push but first reinforcing warp in kills me. 2 Bunker MM Stim -- Can't seem to survive even the first push.
Do you have any replays you could post against a push like this for me to study? His force fields combined with the immortal really take down my bunkers fast!
I really love the idea of this build but don't want to try it on ladder till I have all the kinks worked out. I can try to find a replay to post if needed.
-roberT
I think the best way to help you out with this push is if I could see a replay and analyze it instead. I don't have any replays of that specific situation unfortunately I'd love to take a look and help you out if possible though!
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
Is there an actual replay of this so I can watch without having to endure Husky?
Not that I have access to but I'll search around and try to ask Husky or TLO.
On May 09 2011 10:18 Codepoet wrote: I use this build all the time, thanks very much for putting it together, Synystyr!
I really like the clever aspects of it, like denying your opponent scouting information. I usually place my marines and Thors where observers can easily see them, baiting them into making Immortals, Colossi, and Zealots.
I saw a discussion earlier about whether a gold level player like myself could use this build effectively. I regularly beat Platinum players with it, so I thought I would post a ladder replay of myself doing just that. Rednox (me, Gold) vs klipz (Platinum).
Cool cool! I really love that you picked up on the subtleties It's nice to see people understand the little things about this build that makes it so damn strong Will definitely take a look at your replay when I get out of work :D
what do you do against phoenix openings? i just had a game with the protoss going for 4 early pheonixes for harass. problems are they did harass my workerline quite a bit theres no way you can hide your tech from phoenix scouts they might even pick up popping raven or banshees
ive tried going for BC's asap but ended up with not enough banshees to get rid of his stalkers and got overrun
so what do you do when getting your whole biuld scouted early in generall? maybe deviate into some kind of thor raven 2base allin?
On May 16 2011 00:51 Jacen88 wrote: what do you do against phoenix openings? i just had a game with the protoss going for 4 early pheonixes for harass. problems are they did harass my workerline quite a bit theres no way you can hide your tech from phoenix scouts they might even pick up popping raven or banshees
ive tried going for BC's asap but ended up with not enough banshees to get rid of his stalkers and got overrun
so what do you do when getting your whole biuld scouted early in generall? maybe deviate into some kind of thor raven 2base allin?
Continue constant marine production and place them in areas that would intercept the Phoenix at your mineral lines. If you are getting Thors, place one in each mineral line and that should cover you from harass.
In terms of scouting, it may very well be impossible to deny it. However, with 4 starports, you can quickly match the number of Phoenix on the field with Vikings as Protoss will only have one Stargate. Most Protoss discontinue Phoenix production after harass is denied and transition out of it. You should get just enough Vikings so that your Thor/Marine/Viking combo can quickly deal with the phoenix and then transition back into Banshees.
If Phoenix production is continued, skip Banshees and go into BC tech while making only marines and saving your income for 4 BCs when your Fusion Core finishes. Here are a couple replays for examples....
Synystyr, in that video you just posted, were you able to hear the commentator? I didn't see any headphones on your ears, and he was saying things like "There's a protoss scout at the watchtower" seconds before you sent units to kill it Just wondering how tournaments like that worked with commentating
On May 16 2011 10:58 RukKus wrote: Synystyr, in that video you just posted, were you able to hear the commentator? I didn't see any headphones on your ears, and he was saying things like "There's a protoss scout at the watchtower" seconds before you sent units to kill it Just wondering how tournaments like that worked with commentating
It was a live showmatch at PAX East being cast by djWheat. No, we weren't given earphones so I was able to hear everything unfortunately xD. It wasn't ideal, but I still had no idea about the Phoenix opening and most of the details of the game. I knew I was ahead after the banshee harass however because there was zero detection because of no robo and lots of free probe kills. A very easy win from that point on ^^
I did win the Giantbomb Community Tournament without hearing commentators cast the game however VOD is in the Replays tab ^^
EPT
I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207849.jpg)
I'd love to take a look and help you out if possible though!
Just wondering how tournaments like that worked with commentating
VOD is in the Replays tab ^^
