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On November 16 2010 21:27 Pitsot wrote:
I've tried this build and it works fine against T and P, not that good against Z, though it is possible to win sometimes. The main question for me is when should I send the scouting probe, haven't figure it out yet.
I scout after the 9/10 pylon and when i see the zerg going gas/pool i abandon the build.... I dont think it will work vs speedlings.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but if those 5 Stalkers are there before ling speed has finished I can't see how it'd be a bad strat vs Zerg. Pool + speed research takes 3 minutes all by itself (assuming you have 100 gas by the time the Pool is done, it'll be longer if not). If properly micro'd I have no idea how the Zerg would manage a surround unless you walked right into it. The only option for the Z would be to stall and minimise the damage you do until the upgrade is done, but you could do alot of damage in that time.
It just depends on how fast the Zerg gets gas but I'd say you'd be there before the vast majority of Z's have it done.
I know I usually don't start gas until fairly late compared to most Z, so your strat would most likely screw with me quite badly. 
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14 pool 16 hatch has speed finished at ~6:00.
Now that I think about it, that would probably also stop the stalker rush.
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Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
Looks very promising, will try it, thanks!
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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
This is now my cheese of choice.
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God dammit this is annoying. I didn't realize he was going 5stalker rather than regular korean 4wg because he killed my probe and I couldn't see whether he made 2 more gates or not. Then he walks up my ramp and in anticipation of korea 4wg I only had zealots and a stalker and no FF. Fml.
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I've been comparing two 9 Pylon/9 Gateway builds and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I bolded the Stalker timings.
20 Probes:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 54M 3G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 4M 3G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 117M 35G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:50.96: 199M 67G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:51.07: 150M 67G 70E 16/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:05.03: 111M 94G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 111M 94G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 86M 49G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 193M 82G 64E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:25.03: 193M 82G 39E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:31.34: 100M 94G 43E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:45.03: 127M 120G 50E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:56.34: 239M 141G 32E 17/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:57.49: 125M 94G 32E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:02.54: 50M 53G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 25M 58G 37E 22/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:12.64: 100M 72G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:19.54: 64M 85G 20E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 107M 103G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:36.54: 190M 118G 4E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:49.58: 160M 93G 12E 26/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:59.58: 148M 62G 17E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:04.58: 81M 21G 20E 30/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 20 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
21 Probes:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:16.96: 57M 0G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 133M 24G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.96: 150M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.96: 0M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:50.96: 64M 52G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:05.03: 133M 79G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 133M 79G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 108M 34G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:12.66: 100M 43G 57E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:24.96: 107M 67G 64E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 58M 67G 64E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.46: 150M 85G 45E 18/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:45.03: 99M 105G 50E 18/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:47.51: 125M 110G 27E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:59.35: 125M 82G 34E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:04.09: 50M 41G 36E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 10M 43G 37E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:21.09: 179M 73G 21E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:21.09: 129M 73G 21E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:28.67: 108M 88G 25E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:38.09: 212M 106G 5E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 179M 108G 6E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:41.35: 199M 112G 7E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:51.35: 190M 81G 13E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:01.43: 184M 50G 18E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:06.43: 119M 10G 21E 31/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 21 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
Which build do you think is better? I would lean towards the 21 Probe build. It has has a slightly better economy and gets the first Stalker out significantly faster (~ 3:48 vs. 3:57 in idealized wonderland) for harassing. The downside of the build that Stalker 2-5 would be delayed roughly 2 seconds compared to the 20 Probe build, but imho it's a decent trade for a faster Stalker and better eco.
A "normal" standard build with some chronoboosted probes would probably have around 24 probes at the 5:06 mark. I really don't get why people still think it's an All-in build.
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Dudemeister although your build looks interesting the replay you posted is terrible. The poor zerg missed click his probes and did not harvest for 1 minute. With proper stalker micro you could have ended his pain a lot sooner imo.
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After testing it a bit more, this is actually pretty good vs T, haven't tried much vs P.
A few games, I have been building my buildings near my expo kinda like walling off. Terrans see this as a FE and they literally have no defenses. Ez win.
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I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol
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On November 17 2010 13:51 Roblicious wrote:
I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol
What league/point range were your opponents?
On a different note: What do you think is a good transition when doing a eco 9/9 rush?
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12 win / 3 loss with 1600-1900 ^^
Good Work ;d
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Guys, i think there are a two questions that need to be answered!
On what map and against what race is it strongest?
Don´t do some random build against anything. That will always lose more than it should if used right.
Do you intend to make it an All-In build?
Yes? Don´t think about probecount specifically because you take those probes with the attack anyway. You have to win with that single push so there is NO Follow up and no need for Economy of any kind. You may want to leave some probes to get 1-2 reinforcements. The key to winning is the Timing so its our priority.
No?
Then you need to think about whats the latest timing you can afford to do that push against your preferred race. That timing differs each race. And build a followup around it. You have to aim for doing atleast so much dmg that your economy can keep up with his.
I´m not a Protoss-Player but i think thats raceindependent knowledge.
In this thread are some builds aiming for complete different things. Sort that out first.
mfg Tyrannon
Ignore my bad english please
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lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous
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Anyone have some replays vs Z of the 3/4 gate variants that were posted on this page and the previous one?
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Russian Federation20 Posts
On November 18 2010 01:53 Nihilnovi wrote:
lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous
How did you manage to lose having 5 stalkers vs 2 zeals + 1 stalker? Doesn't make any sense to me.
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On November 18 2010 02:36 Pitsot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 01:53 Nihilnovi wrote:
lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous How did you manage to lose having 5 stalkers vs 2 zeals + 1 stalker? Doesn't make any sense to me.
He probe-pulled and promptly stomped me with two warp cycles from 4 gates as opposed to my 2 shortly thereafter.
edit: a normal 4 gate is really not far away from this, just fyi afaik it hits at 6 min, so you have a really tiny window to actually do anything, and stalkers just take ages to kill zealots.
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Also tried the build and it really does make wonders for my playstyle. I like to be aggressive early game or atleast have some kind of control of whats happening, even if the rush does little to no damage I feel more safe to do what I want now. Cheers!
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EPT
