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I'm most intrested in a discussion of the viability of this build. And what matchups it could be used in.
It was developed with CarbonTwelves protoss build order optimizer. So a lot of credit goes to him.
The goal is to have push similar to the 7rr but with protoss.
Witht his build you have 5 stalkers and a warp in pylon with warp tech next to their base in 5 minutes.
The build flows extremely well and is quite deadly, but just like the 7rr it sacrifices a lot of economy. It's close to an all in, you have to do a lot of damage or win directly.
Pros:
- Hits before a 4gate is finished, most toss players will only have1 stalker 1 zealot vs your 5 stalkers.
- Hits before banshees are out.
- Defends a 7rr quite well
- Second warp in pylon is placed in their base, reinforcing a lot faster than a 7rr.
- Because of the warp in pylon it works on larger maps
Cons:
- Sacrifices a lot of economy
- Easily scoutable
- ???
Build:
8 Pylon
8 Gateway
1 chrono on nexus for probes
10 Assimilator > +3
11 Cybernetics Core
12 Gateway
12 warp gate research - use 4 chronoboosts on the research
12 stalker
14 stalker
16 stalker
18 pylon
stalkers++
When your first stalker is finished, take the probe and the stalker and walk to you opponents base and place the pylon.
As the pylon is warping in your two next stalkers will arrive there and your warp gate research finished and the two warp gates ready to go. Warp in an additional 2 stalkers.
You will now have 5 stalkers outside of his base and be able to warp in more stalkers as you fight.
If you try this build order you will notice how smooth it is, everything is aligned perfectly resource wise. Executed perfectly it should be done by 4:47, my best one so far is 4:59.
Replays:
5 stalker rush vs 1700 zerg
Alternative version with more economy(Thanks to Hurkyl):
9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
11 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
19 Stalker[2]
24 Pylon
26 Transform to Warpgate[2]
26 Stalker[2]
This version is about 8 seconds slower but has 5 more probes, more in line with the 7rr.
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Usually by the 5 min mark i have a sentry zealot and stalker out, depends on which build i go of course. I think its doable on certain maps and depends on the users micro skills. I agree with your con on it being easily scoutable, if i see a 10gateway or earlier i always expect a quick rush and do what i can to counter it.
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I'm wondering what level you are playing at so I can not get roflstomped by people when i try this. Although i'll try it in customs before I really tell you anything I find wrong with it. I think it would even put good pressure on a Terran who is going for a 1-1-1 build as he probably wont have many units at his front but if there is a bunker I wont be too happy that I sacrificed all the economy using this build.
You cant even tell me to scout if he's turtling in or what not because If i were to go 8pylon 8gate then it would be way too early to even know what he's going for and I will already have been committed to such a build where if I dont do damage, I may as well gg and leave. I'm at 1800 diamond.
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I think that the problem will be that it's easily scoutable. Depending on the possible "counters".
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Definitely going to try this in PvP, loving some new Cheesy play.
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Have you tried this build with the 10/10 opener? So it doesn't sacrifice economy as much.
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an 8 gate? if other player doesn't adjust their build order when seeing that, then shit, they deserve to lose.
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On November 15 2010 09:33 Fruscainte wrote:
Definitely going to try this in PvP, loving some new Cheesy play.
yeah even some diamonds only react to 2 gate, cannon rush, and void rays. this may actually work since im in 1400s
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replay please if you have a decent one
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On November 15 2010 09:28 DawgEm wrote:
I'm wondering what level you are playing at so I can not get roflstomped by people when i try this. Although i'll try it in customs before I really tell you anything I find wrong with it. I think it would even put good pressure on a Terran who is going for a 1-1-1 build as he probably wont have many units at his front but if there is a bunker I wont be too happy that I sacrificed all the economy using this build.
You cant even tell me to scout if he's turtling in or what not because If i were to go 8pylon 8gate then it would be way too early to even know what he's going for and I will already have been committed to such a build where if I dont do damage, I may as well gg and leave. I'm at 1800 diamond.
I'm 1400 diamond with 300 bonus pool, playing all races. The thing about scouting is that they will spot gateway, cyber and gas before the scout is killed, and atleast as long is this isn't popular, it's kind of hard to know what you're up too. I guess you could fake a double gas just to confuse him even more?
So lets say its a close distance map PvP, they send their scout out after the 9 pylon, arrive at your base when at what? 11-12 food? Is that early enough to stop it? Zealots cant touch stalkers if you micro correctly. Cannons would kill it though.
And if you're trying it out. practice a few times on Yabot, it's actually not that easy to pull off, and it requires some good micro and multitasking to warp in, attack move attack move, warp in, build additional pylon etc. A lot more fun than 7rr 
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I think even if the guy only had like 2-3 zealots + a sentry he could defend with probes
would love to see replays tho
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I can see this working on larger maps where they are unable to spot the 8 gate timing, or on other maps if you fake a proxy (Which you lot call "Maka Rax", screw maka, I been doing it since beta and even got meme'd for it).
Along time ago on steeps I used to do this with 1 gate zealot sending all probes with him once I had 200 minerals spare, and just went after pylons, letting probes die to free the supply to get the 3rd zealot out. Timing for this is also an 8 gate, tried sooner gates but all gates prior to an 8 gate have the first zealot come out the same time as an 8 gate due to lack of minerals.
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Well I took this build into customs, and the only person it worked on was a bronze terran. Vs. the protoss, he managed to get an immortal out, which i killed, but he took out too many of the initial stalkers. Vs. zerg they just made zerglings off a FE. Theres no way to micro against them without losing the proxy pylon from what I can tell. The terran rallied rines at me which was no problem. Then i got to his ramp and he had 2 rauders which 5 stalkers clean up easliy.
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This sounds like an extreme version of the dual stalker opening, must give it a try. Anything to avoid colossi gheyness.
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Have you considered 10 Pylon/Gateway/Gas? I use that opening whenever I need to get a super early Stalker. I'm not sure how this would throw off your timing though. But, it would give you a boost in economy. Maybe enough to eke out a third Gateway?
I kind of imagine this being a super aggressive version of Nazgul's Blink Stalkers play.
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any sort of scouting would shut this down.... thats why every cheese needs to have a layer or two of deception, something that this lacks.
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Uploaded a replay vs a Zerg I just played, please excuse my poor play I'm a bit rusty with Toss, played zerg the last weeks.
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I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-.
EDIT : doesn't work vs zerg, they always get speedlings in time.
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On November 15 2010 09:57 DragonDefonce wrote:
any sort of scouting would shut this down.... thats why every cheese needs to have a layer or two of deception, something that this lacks.
I totally agree, thats why I need your help to refine this
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On November 15 2010 10:04 creamwolf wrote:
I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-.
I call BS. No way that one of your 1700-1900 level opponents opened 3 supply depots.
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so are you supposed to cut probe production at 12?
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Done by nony?
Or a similar build was done by nony (liquid tyler).
Basically 10 gate, 13 gas, 15 cyber, 20 gate, 28 gas, and poke with 2-4-6 stalkers.
Gives 4 gate a hard time because it isnt done in time and usually has less unit count.
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On November 15 2010 09:53 KaoReal wrote:
Well I took this build into customs, and the only person it worked on was a bronze terran. Vs. the protoss, he managed to get an immortal out, which i killed, but he took out too many of the initial stalkers. Vs. zerg they just made zerglings off a FE. Theres no way to micro against them without losing the proxy pylon from what I can tell. The terran rallied rines at me which was no problem. Then i got to his ramp and he had 2 rauders which 5 stalkers clean up easliy.
an immortal.. really?
I love this build cuz its just liek the 3rr <3 Love that cheese
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On November 15 2010 09:53 KaoReal wrote:
Well I took this build into customs, and the only person it worked on was a bronze terran. Vs. the protoss, he managed to get an immortal out, which i killed, but he took out too many of the initial stalkers. Vs. zerg they just made zerglings off a FE. Theres no way to micro against them without losing the proxy pylon from what I can tell. The terran rallied rines at me which was no problem. Then i got to his ramp and he had 2 rauders which 5 stalkers clean up easliy.
How could he have an immortal out? Even if he rushed it with 10gate he should not get it until 5:30-6:00.
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On November 15 2010 10:19 Odyssey.561 wrote:
so are you supposed to cut probe production at 12?
Yes, 12 probes is enough to support constant stalkers and pylons.
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Would def catch zergs with pants down.
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Interesting build that looks pretty aggressive to me.
of course if its well scouted it can be shut down but then everything thats well scouted gets shut down to a certain degree. but not all players scout perfectly. in that respect it has potential to cause trouble.
not sure it fairs well against a 3 rax (2x tech 1x reactor) build though.
by the time the toss makes it to the top of the ramp there's a terran welcoming party already in place.
...recovery thereafter looks mighty grim.
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1. The build fits together, so good job. ~5:00 is the best possible time though. You are not going to get 4:47.
2. Comparable to 8p, 10gate, 12gas, 13core+gate in BW. There is a thread on the topic pvt long time ago, but I cant find it easily. Can catch a lot of people with pants down, but I suspect as long as opponent scouts it fast enough, cuts workers right away and masses unit+uses worker to hold off they should be able to hold and end up with slightly better economy...which is exactly the way the game should be.
But starting with 6workers+warpin probably makes this stronger than comparable bw play, so interesting to see how races will respond to this.
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just thought i'd chime in, so after seeing this, being a super non cheesy player i figured i give it a shot, see how it feels.
it feels awsome and awards great micro especially vs zergs, tested vs 2 2200+ zergs, one being 2400 and vs anything other than 12 pool or earlier, u have a strong chance of winning the game out right, or at the very least sniping queens and overall controlling the game.
no replays, they asked me not to, and since i dont cheese in ladder its gonna hafta wait till i play with different friends who dont mind uploads xD
gl everyone, not sure why so many negatives, works great vs zerg, and hits before tech lab is up vs terrans. alot of terrans past 2200 dont wall off, and just rax close to CC in which case its almost GG if not scouted in time and even if it is, bunkers are the only response and stalker work well vs 1 bunker with just marines. vs toss its iffy, i havnt tested it yet but if it hits before a 2nd sentry, u should almost win every time, as they'd prob go 2 gate before cyber if they scout ur super fast gate way with a 9 scout.
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On November 15 2010 10:26 Dudemeister wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:19 Odyssey.561 wrote:
so are you supposed to cut probe production at 12? Yes, 12 probes is enough to support constant stalkers and pylons.
Just because you could doesn't mean you should.
+ Show Spoiler +0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 54M 3G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 4M 3G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 117M 35G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:50.96: 199M 67G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:51.07: 150M 67G 70E 16/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:05.03: 111M 94G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 111M 94G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warpgate
3:07.96: 86M 49G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:14.98: 100M 63G 59E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:25.03: 86M 82G 64E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:31.58: 150M 94G 43E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:45.03: 127M 120G 50E 17/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:45.03: 127M 120G 25E 17/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:57.49: 125M 94G 32E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:02.54: 50M 53G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 25M 58G 37E 22/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:12.64: 100M 72G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:19.54: 64M 85G 20E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 107M 103G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:36.54: 190M 118G 4E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:49.58: 160M 93G 12E 26/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:59.58: 148M 62G 17E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:04.58: 81M 21G 20E 30/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 Warpgate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 20 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warpgate
The build order optimizer isn't optimized for workers yet. You can easily get away with an almost normal worker count while still executing the strategy. In theorie, you can get 5 Stalkers and 3 Warpgates at the 5 minute mark with ca. 20 workers. Sounds alot healthier than going complete all-in with 12 workers.
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I dont see this working, sorry.
My problem is this, sentries are sooo easy to get that I can FF the ramp, I would know that you are building a proxy if you bring a probe into my base with your build. So I think it would play out as you sending 5 stalkers up my ramp. I ff it to keep some in and some out. pull the in stalkers further in my base as to no be shot by low ground stalkers. continue warping in, and eventually swing the lead in my favor, maybe I have to pull some probes... maybe I dont.
TL said that I should be constructive with my posts so Ill add this. Sacing eco Is never a good Idea, SC2 is an economy game. More units are always the thing to have, yes, but I feel its not a viable thing to do because there is little fallback plan.
I play protoss and have lost to 7rr, I know how that one feels. I however have crushed a 7rr with getting 1 gate then 1cyber then 1 stargate then my second gateway, making the units I had money for. I spent no cronoboost on warpgate, instead spent it all on probes. (gassed at 14 and at 3/4ths cyber core completion.)
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I tried this and won a game with it. However, I was not able to keep constant stalker production after the first 7 or so because of gas shortage, so I had to mix in zealots. Is this expected with this build?
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This works really well in PvP and PvT but in PvZ its not that good. If they scout it (and they will) then all they have todo is mass speedlings to defend it, or run lings into your base unless you wall yourself in using the pylon + 2gate + cyber. If you can catch the zerg as hes droning though just run in snipe the overlords and its pretty effective.
Even met some guy twice in a row so he was expecting me todo it, and went defensive 2gate mass zealots. Won as I was able to kite the zealots to keep in his base, cut stalkers and get DT's. It works like Gnails old 2 stalker rushing, killing units for the snowball effect but stronger.
With good micro because of the constant production you do not even notice the econ sacrifice. Better than using zealots by a long stretch.
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People are forgetting that in PvZ you will always have at least a little while to harass with stalkers before speedling research finishes. I'd rather go for 2gate chrono stalkers though, so you can abuse that window to the maximum.
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i think this could work in pvz actually wouldn't it be just as effective to get out 2 zealots for a quick 3 stalker 2 zealot push at the 5 minute mark
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This will be hilarious in 2 vs 2 must try now.
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On November 15 2010 12:07 Antisocialmunky wrote:
This will be hilarious in 2 vs 2 must try now.
in a 4 v 4 you can like 20 stalker Rush
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actually after 1 BILLION and a half games i found out a better BO
9 pylon 9 gate ...
LESS THAN 5 MINUTES =D
Edit2: I actually forgot the app turned on while playing, noticed some gpu lags but never imagined it was it =X
Edit3: And 13 probes instead of 12 ...
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:35.96: 107M 0G 53E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:38.69: 75M 0G 54E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:52.96: 98M 0G 62E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:08.69: 170M 0G 71E 12/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:08.69: 170M 0G 71E 12/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:08.69: 170M 0G 71E 12/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:15.03: 208M 12G 75E 12/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:30.68: 150M 42G 84E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:05.03: 211M 107G 100E 12/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 211M 107G 75E 12/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:05.03: 86M 57G 75E 14/ 18S - Research Warpgate
3:25.03: 163M 45G 86E 14/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:35.68: 230M 65G 67E 14/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:45.03: 165M 33G 73E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:53.95: 221M 50G 53E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:54.54: 100M 1G 53E 18/ 18S - Build Pylon
4:05.03: 59M 21G 59E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:20.26: 156M 50G 42E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:23.28: 50M 6G 44E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
4:25.03: 11M 9G 45E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:33.92: 68M 26G 25E 21/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:38.36: 96M 34G 3E 21/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
4:48.36: 164M 53G 8E 21/ 26S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
4:53.36: 74M 13G 11E 23/ 26S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 2 Pylon 1 Gateway 1 Warpgate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 13 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warpgate
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You'll be amazed how effective this is by skipping 1 single stalker, getting 4 instead of 5. You can warp in stalkers to contain while getting out a void ray or DT within the next 2 minutes, or expand at the same time.
So yeah upon further inspection, 4 stalkers is better than 5.
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against zerg, why not warp in two zealot instead of two stalker? this will help deal with ling/drone surround - you can pull probes off gas if you feel stalkers would be too much of a liability which will allow your econ to at least be decent if you are able to pick off drones and the zealots could clean up.. 3 stalker 2 zealot vs zerg seems better than 5 stalker..
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Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg?
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On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg?
Because then its a Korean 4 gate.
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On November 15 2010 14:40 Chronicle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg? Because then its a Korean 4 gate.
Then...wouldn't this be a Korean 4 gate...but with stalkers instead of zealots?
Edit: Also as others have said I believe vs Zerg it might be a problem because lings really kill stalkers once they get a surround on you, and against Terran they can just put up a bunker once they scout your early aggression build. In my honest opinion it might be mainly viable vs Protoss simply because I don't think they'd have a way to defend this unless if they just plain out micro you. I'll test it when I get a chance tomorrow morning and give a more detailed report.
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No because it uses 2 gates not 4 with less units overall. Costwise Stalkers are twice as expensive as zealots which is why you have less gateways. A Korean 4 gate done correctly can have 7 zealots out with 4 gates with a better econ around the same time this comes out, with the ability to continually warp in 4 zealots each cycle.
The main strength of this build is in pvp as you can kite zealots easily vs a standard 4 warpgate get to his base with 5 stalkers before he begins warping in. Its also pretty strong at breaking down the walls of Terran since you can snipe units over the wall and 5 stalkers can focus down a depos in a wall while 7 zealots could not.
In PvZ it has its uses if you can supply block the zerg, but I still think 3 or 4 gate builds are better for this. Some lings + spinecrawler shuts this down hard and even though this hurts zergs econ alot, it'll still be much better than yours.
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On November 15 2010 10:24 Warp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 09:53 KaoReal wrote:
Well I took this build into customs, and the only person it worked on was a bronze terran. Vs. the protoss, he managed to get an immortal out, which i killed, but he took out too many of the initial stalkers. Vs. zerg they just made zerglings off a FE. Theres no way to micro against them without losing the proxy pylon from what I can tell. The terran rallied rines at me which was no problem. Then i got to his ramp and he had 2 rauders which 5 stalkers clean up easliy. an immortal.. really? I love this build cuz its just liek the 3rr <3 Love that cheese
yeah i took a look at the replay and i botched the chronoboost a bit. late by about 30 secs, which apparently is a big deal with this cheese.
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On November 15 2010 10:24 Warp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 09:53 KaoReal wrote:
Well I took this build into customs, and the only person it worked on was a bronze terran. Vs. the protoss, he managed to get an immortal out, which i killed, but he took out too many of the initial stalkers. Vs. zerg they just made zerglings off a FE. Theres no way to micro against them without losing the proxy pylon from what I can tell. The terran rallied rines at me which was no problem. Then i got to his ramp and he had 2 rauders which 5 stalkers clean up easliy. an immortal.. really? I love this build cuz its just liek the 3rr <3 Love that cheese
LAWLZZ THE IMMORTAL PART MADE ME LAUGH SO HARD
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On November 15 2010 14:40 Chronicle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg? Because then its a Korean 4 gate.
False. He clearly stated that you only make 2 gates, not 4.
Korean 2 gate perhap? x.x
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At some point, optimization becomes much easier by just picking a target point and working backwards, rather than doing a gigantic randomized search!
The critical path is:
25 seconds for Pylon
65 seconds for Gateway
50 seconds for Cybernetics Core
93 seconds for Chrono Boosted Warp Gate research
10 seconds for Warp Gate
For a total duration of 4:03 (and a third). If you pick a starting point, such as 9 Pylon at 0:44, then the best possible is to have the conversion finish 4:47. Then you just work backwards when things must happen.
In 93 + 10 seconds, we don't have time for one gateway to build three Stalkers, unless we use two Chrono Boosts. I'll assume we don't have that many to spare. (But this should be checked!)
So, we need to build 2 Stalkers from Gateway #1, and 1 Stalker from Gateway #2. Assuming we don't use Chrono Boost, Gateway #1 has to start making Stalkers at 3:13, and Gateway #2 has to start at 3:55. This means Gateway #2 has to be started at 2:50.
We need 100 gas by 3:13 (for Warp Gate and for Stalker), which takes 50 seconds to harvest. Also, we need 200 gas by 3:55 and 300 by 4:47. The Assimilator must finish by 2:15, and so must be started at 1:45. (EDIT -- something's wrong with my calculation. Assimilator needs to start at 1:35)
I wasn't able to get the Gateway started until 1:12, so add three seconds to all the timings. A bit of fast forward shows we have 175 minerals to spare when we need to build the Cybernetics Core at 2:17. So let's try making 4 more probes. Let's also try a Chrono Boost, since much energy would go to waste otherwise.
Continuing along the same idea, I come to:
9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Use 1 Chrono Boost on Nexus
11 Assimilator
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Gateway
16 Warp Gate research
16 Start chain Chrono Boosting the Cybernetics Core
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
19 Stalker Stalker
24 Forward Pylon
26 Warp in Stalker Stalker
I sent the forward probe out the same time my first Stalker finished, and I got to start warping two Stalkers into the middle of Steppes of War at 4:53, with my force of 5 Stalkers assembled there at 4:58.
I ran this build on slowest speed, so I imagine in a real game, one might have to cut a probe or two to get this timing off of the 9 pylon opening.
Why can I get so many more probes than the version produced by the optimizer? It's probably some combination of:
- It's a randomized search for a good result, rather than a systematic search for the best result.
- Some of the real mineral patches are closer than the simulated mineral patches.
- It's very expensive to speed up the build by a couple more seconds
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only reason you won in this replay is because he didnt put his guys back on mining... Having said that I will try it against my friend for fun
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Here is a clip from that fancy new build order optimizer that some dude posted earlier. It comes out faster without the warp gate tech. Note only putting 2 on gas, then adding a 3rd later. Be a good test for the BO optimizer
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:46.44: 113M 0G 25E 9/ 10S - Chrono Nexus
0:50.81: 138M 0G 2E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
0:53.00: 100M 0G 4E 10/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:05.80: 75M 0G 11E 10/ 10S - Build Assimilator
1:27.35: 150M 0G 23E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:35.22: 50M 0G 27E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:35.80: 4M 0G 28E 11/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
1:35.80: 4M 0G 28E 11/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
1:52.22: 95M 23G 37E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:09.05: 150M 47G 46E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:32.35: 156M 79G 60E 12/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:39.23: 50M 89G 63E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:56.23: 118M 113G 73E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
3:22.35: 277M 149G 88E 14/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:22.35: 152M 99G 88E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:22.35: 52M 99G 88E 16/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
3:31.62: 125M 112G 68E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:31.62: 0M 62G 68E 18/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
3:54.35: 178M 105G 81E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:54.35: 53M 55G 81E 20/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:13.62: 204M 92G 67E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:13.62: 79M 42G 67E 22/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:14.35: 85M 43G 42E 22/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:22.35: 148M 59G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:25.83: 50M 15G 23E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:33.62: 61M 30G 28E 25/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
4:50.35: 197M 62G 12E 25/ 26S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 2 Pylon 2 Gateway 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 15 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades:
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On November 15 2010 16:44 Jayrod wrote:Here is a clip from that fancy new build order optimizer that some dude posted earlier. It comes out faster without the warp gate tech. Note only putting 2 on gas, then adding a 3rd later. Be a good test for the BO optimizer + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:46.44: 113M 0G 25E 9/ 10S - Chrono Nexus
0:50.81: 138M 0G 2E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
0:53.00: 100M 0G 4E 10/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:05.80: 75M 0G 11E 10/ 10S - Build Assimilator
1:27.35: 150M 0G 23E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:35.22: 50M 0G 27E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:35.80: 4M 0G 28E 11/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
1:35.80: 4M 0G 28E 11/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
1:52.22: 95M 23G 37E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:09.05: 150M 47G 46E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:32.35: 156M 79G 60E 12/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:39.23: 50M 89G 63E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:56.23: 118M 113G 73E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
3:22.35: 277M 149G 88E 14/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:22.35: 152M 99G 88E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:22.35: 52M 99G 88E 16/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
3:31.62: 125M 112G 68E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:31.62: 0M 62G 68E 18/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
3:54.35: 178M 105G 81E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:54.35: 53M 55G 81E 20/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:13.62: 204M 92G 67E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:13.62: 79M 42G 67E 22/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:14.35: 85M 43G 42E 22/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:22.35: 148M 59G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:25.83: 50M 15G 23E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:33.62: 61M 30G 28E 25/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
4:50.35: 197M 62G 12E 25/ 26S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 2 Pylon 2 Gateway 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 15 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades:
problem being that those stalkers that walk out of a gateway have to run alllll the way to opponent base. Warp-in allows for instantaneous action
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Looks interesting, and thanks for the people who have actually tried this build before testing as opposed to just theorycrafting.
Will give this a shot.
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On November 15 2010 15:55 Sawyer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:40 Chronicle wrote:On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg? Because then its a Korean 4 gate. False. He clearly stated that you only make 2 gates, not 4. Korean 2 gate perhap? x.x
Your not not the sharpest tool in the box. Learn 2 Read posts before you make stupid comments.
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On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg?
Because then roaches rape your face. This is the same reason that it is impossible to 2/3gate a FE zerg anymore.
I can see this working very well vs zerg. Even if they go fast speedlings with 13 gas 13 pool or something like that you have a few minutes before the upgrade is in effect, and you can kite slowlings pretty effectively with stalkers, and stalkers do decently vs spinecrawlers and roaches.
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On November 15 2010 16:00 Hurkyl wrote:Why can I get so many more probes than the version produced by the optimizer? It's probably some combination of: - It's a randomized search for a good result, rather than a systematic search for the best result.
- Some of the real mineral patches are closer than the simulated mineral patches.
- It's very expensive to speed up the build by a couple more seconds
The optimizer will tank your economy even if only to make that 5th stalker 2seconds sooner. That's why.
Dudemeister's BO:
8 Pylon
8 Gateway
8 Probe*
10 Assimilator > +3
11 Cybernetics Core
12 Gateway
12 Warpgate****
12 Stalker
14 Stalker
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
18 Transform to Warpgate[2]
18 Stalker[2]
5 Stalkers at the 4:49 mark
# of probes: 12
Your BO:
9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
11 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
19 Stalker[2]
24 Pylon
26 Transform to Warpgate[2]
26 Stalker[2]
5 Stalkers at the 4:57 mark
# of probes: 17
I think 5 probes > 8 seconds in this case. Also more inline with the 7RR Dudemeister refers to since it has 18 workers + 7 roaches.
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Cheese.
Will fail against
- speedlings
- marauders
- bunkers on a choke
- units and one spine crawler on a choke
- etc.
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I think this would work a lot better than 7RR, just because stalkers are a lot easier to micro with (are the fastest unit at this point of the game, with the exception of slings and lings or creep) and have an impressive 6 range.
However, I am interested in knowing the timing of when speedlings pop. If a zerg went for mutaling and he has a couple of spine crawlers and a dozen lings with speed research almost completed, I'm assuming this build would get stomped.
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the zerg dude from the replay he provided almost held it off with pure zerglings, he only lost because he forgot to put his workers back at mining and gave up some pretty good surround opportunities. pretty nice build, but with good micro, speedlings will overwhelm you.
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On November 16 2010 02:15 Perscienter wrote:Cheese. Will fail against - speedlings
- marauders
- bunkers on a choke
- units and one spine crawler on a choke
- etc.
Speedlings come out way later. You'll have plenty of time to snipe of overlords, queens and force him to pump lings instead of drones. 2 fast stalkers are a great tactic against Zergs, 5 I'm not sure about, but you still have a timing window.
Maruders, snipe of every marine you can and go fast voids. Quite good tactic against T who's going to many maruders.
Bunker, well, he's contained, go exp or something.
Units and spine crawler, 99% of Zergs go for FE. There are plenty of maps were spine crawlers won't cover the expansion. Snipe drones, overlords and lings.
If you go for the slightly delayed 5 stalker push, you won't be behind very much econ-wise and you can still do some damage.
This tactic won't give you the win, but if you go for the slightly more economic one, you'll be rather well set-up for midgame.
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There is a slightly different version of this that originated on korean servers, its 3 warpgates quick 5 stalkers, then you put down a pylon that would have range behind the terrans wall where you warp in two zealots and a stalker.
Its good if you know he is going some sort of fast tech. I beat fenix with it in the last TLopen because he was going fast tech.
But its very situational and very hard to execute, if you screw up the build and are late you will just get stomped by stim. Wouldnt really reccomend learning the build in the long run.
Edit: With regards to the OP build, how does this utilise our macro mechanics? The reason the roach rushes are any good is because its when the first extra larvae hits that give you an edge. Our edge in macroing is the warpgate cooldown, this build sacrifices so much econ and shows tiny benefit from it. Stop thinking in the super short term.
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Yeah, 5 stalkers seems like it would be great against a FE build, however, no zerg will go FE when they see the 9 gate, so i don't see this build working at the higher level of play (Gold-Diamond) unless your opponent really fails at scouting
HOWEVER there might be a way to make it work
If you put that gate somewhere that wouldnt be scouted (like proxy) along with the core and then built an extra pylon in the main with that gate on 12, it would LOOK like a 14 gate (usually indictive of a econ build), however, the moment that first stalker pops the opponent knows there would be a hidden cyber core so he would immediately suspect something. I will have to test out the timings and the build to see how much of a delay this would cause. This could really punish a FE build.
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Right when that build order optimizer came out I tried this build as well at the 1700 diamond level and it was easily crushed by a decent scouting terran. It did work a bit better vs protoss and zerg but vs Terran it isn't too good. I'm sure it will win you some games but I have the feeling it won't work vs decent scouting people
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This is my new favourite build.
I only tried it once in 1v1. I absolutely raped my z practice partner with this build. I was able to kill about 30 lings and 2 queens without losing a single stalker. My friend was left really confused.
After that I decided to bring this build to some team games. I played a lot of 4v4 and a few 3v3 and this build is fantastic. Having 2-3 players do this build at the same time is just ridiculous. We raped so many noobs on the ladder. Most of my team plays random so we just had it set up so any toss players did this build, zergs would do the 7rr, and terran would do various different builds such as proxy rax or even fast expand. You just have so many units so fast there is nothing they can do about it.
I won a few games that were literally 2v4. Our allies never even got a chance to help out because 10 stalkers at 5 minutes rapes hard.
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Ok, i came up with a build order that i think can really punish a FE build based on this build on a 4 player map
[ using http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/ ]
9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
11 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Pylon
15 Gateway
16 Warpgate****
16 Stalker
19 Stalker [2]
23 Transform to Warpgate [2]
24 Pylon
26 Stalker [2]
First make the 9 pylon a proxy somewhere that can't be scouted. If it is scouted, you will lose. Proceed to build the gateway and core at the proxy locations. Then build the 15 pylon at your choke along with your gateway. You opponent hopefully will not scout until the gateway is done. This will look like a FE build or a high tech build or even a normal build. To really confuse them throw down a forge or a stargate and then cancel it once you kill the worker. To throw em off even more, make a stargate around 20 and then cancel it right in front of them. That will throw them for a huge loop. Continue the build as normal and show up with 5 stalkers around the 5:30 mark. You will have about 350 minerals and can choose to either build another gate and apply more pressure, or expand yourself as you already have 17 drones.
This is theoretical, but i'm going to try it tonight when i get home.
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ive got an extremely similar build to this.
its 10gate early core, how ever this build as ill admit to mine being, if your first push fails, it leaves you in such an aweful macro position its so easy to fall behind that its almost pointless you applied early pressure anyway.
This is designed to work against eco builds early game, not 4 gate or banshee's its designed to end the game in 7 minutes or less, its such an all in/failable push that if you lose the push you lose the game
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Russian Federation20 Posts
Sounds interesting. I'm looking for early pressure Protoss builds recently and this looks promising.
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On November 16 2010 02:05 Phrencys wrote:Your BO: 9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
11 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
19 Stalker[2]
24 Pylon
26 Transform to Warpgate[2]
26 Stalker[2] 5 Stalkers at the 4:57 mark # of probes: 17
Switch that to 5 Chrono Boosts on WarpGate, and the 5 Stalkers are completed at 4:51, according to the simulator.
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On November 16 2010 04:38 Hurkyl wrote:
Switch that to 5 Chrono Boosts on WarpGate, and the 5 Stalkers are completed at 4:51, according to the simulator.
Yeah, but you can do the same with the OP's BO.
5th chrono on warpgate research is always a waste IMO. More importantly, you'll want energy to CB your warp gates to speed-up reinforcements.
But yeah, it's possible.
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Tried it; it's pretty solid. Beats Any FE strat pretty badly (as does any early rush type play), and beats slowlings and slowlots pretty well. Also not bad against T especially if you catch them with your 5 stalkers since in small numbers, stalkers>bio (less than 7-8 total units for bio.)
Tip: If you're going to try this against a terran player and they've got marauders, Focus fire those bastards and get them out of the way. Tossing in a zealot to help soak up some marine fire helps when your 2nd round of warp is ready.
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What would you say if I said I could get 6 zealots and 3 stalkers in 6 minutes? Haven't tried it in a real game so I'm not sure how it works out, but here is the build if anyone wants to test it.
9 pylon
14 gateway
14 gas
16 gateway
- 16 zealot
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 pylon (yes 2 pylons)
18 cybernetics core
- 18 zealot
- 22 zealot
- 24 stalker
- 26 zealot
- 28 stalker
- 30 stalker
- 32 zealot
Edit: (By checking it I mean try it in a real game to see if it works vs timings etc. Even though this is an obviously risky build as the gateways come late and units come really late so you are vulnerable to any early pressure. Probably best used vs. a scouted fast expanding zerg.)
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On November 16 2010 06:55 ApBuLLet wrote:
What would you say if I said I could get 5 zealots and 3 stalkers in 6 minutes? Haven't tried it in a real game so I'm not sure how it works out, but here is the build if anyone wants to test it.
9 pylon
14 gateway
14 gas
16 gateway
- 16 zealot
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 pylon (yes 2 pylons)
18 cybernetics core
- 18 zealot
- 22 zealot
- 24 stalker
- 26 zealot
- 28 stalker
- 30 stalker
- 32 zealot
Edit: (By checking it I mean try it in a real game to see if it works vs timings etc. Even though this is an obviously risky build as the gateways come late and units come really late so you are vulnerable to any early pressure. Probably best used vs. a scouted fast expanding zerg.)
Personally would take 5 stalkers at 5 minutes over 5 Zealots+3 stalkers at 6; the earlier you hit your opponent, the less cycles of units they can get in. I see this working vs a FE zerg as you've mentioned, and as any rush type build punishes a fast expand, period.
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On November 16 2010 07:00 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:55 ApBuLLet wrote:
What would you say if I said I could get 5 zealots and 3 stalkers in 6 minutes? Haven't tried it in a real game so I'm not sure how it works out, but here is the build if anyone wants to test it.
9 pylon
14 gateway
14 gas
16 gateway
- 16 zealot
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 pylon (yes 2 pylons)
18 cybernetics core
- 18 zealot
- 22 zealot
- 24 stalker
- 26 zealot
- 28 stalker
- 30 stalker
- 32 zealot
Edit: (By checking it I mean try it in a real game to see if it works vs timings etc. Even though this is an obviously risky build as the gateways come late and units come really late so you are vulnerable to any early pressure. Probably best used vs. a scouted fast expanding zerg.) Personally would take 5 stalkers at 5 minutes over 5 Zealots+3 stalkers at 6; the earlier you hit your opponent, the less cycles of units they can get in. I see this working vs a FE zerg as you've mentioned, and as any rush type build punishes a fast expand, period.
Yeah that is true, and I actually mistyped it, it is 6 zealots not 5, but in either case your point still stands. The extra zealots may make this rush more viable vs terran because it somewhat negates the marauders (without concussive), but still a decent scouting player should be able to adapt well enough to crush the push when it comes.
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i got this after running the program for 20 minutes with the condition of 5 stalkers and 25 probes and no warpgate technology
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:46.79: 75M 0G 34E 13/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:54.80: 66M 0G 38E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:11.80: 172M 0G 48E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.79: 170M 0G 51E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.79: 170M 0G 51E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:28.80: 273M 17G 58E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:35.83: 287M 27G 62E 16/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:37.35: 150M 29G 62E 16/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:37.35: 0M 29G 62E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:45.80: 60M 45G 67E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:55.80: 100M 64G 73E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:02.80: 60M 77G 77E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:20.80: 185M 111G 87E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 188M 121G 90E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:37.80: 189M 94G 96E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:37.80: 139M 94G 96E 22/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
3:37.80: 139M 94G 71E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:46.09: 125M 109G 76E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:50.65: 50M 68G 79E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:04.08: 156M 94G 86E 25/ 34S - Build Probe
4:07.83: 150M 101G 88E 26/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:07.83: 25M 51G 88E 28/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:21.08: 184M 76G 71E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:28.09: 220M 89G 75E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:28.50: 100M 40G 75E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:39.83: 136M 61G 81E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.83: 11M 11G 81E 33/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:42.84: 50M 17G 58E 33/ 34S - Build Probe
4:42.84: 0M 17G 58E 34/ 34S - Chrono Nexus
4:54.18: 145M 39G 39E 34/ 42S - Build Probe
4:54.18: 95M 39G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:07.83: 272M 65G 22E 35/ 42S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 2 Gateway 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 25 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades:
It comes slightly later but its less all in
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On November 16 2010 06:49 tetramaster wrote:
Tried it; it's pretty solid. Beats Any FE strat pretty badly (as does any early rush type play), and beats slowlings and slowlots pretty well. Also not bad against T especially if you catch them with your 5 stalkers since in small numbers, stalkers>bio (less than 7-8 total units for bio.)
Tip: If you're going to try this against a terran player and they've got marauders, Focus fire those bastards and get them out of the way. Tossing in a zealot to help soak up some marine fire helps when your 2nd round of warp is ready.
You cant really play this vs good terrans... they just get 1-2 bunkers when they scout your base.
No chance to win in your first push and you are behind in eco.
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On November 16 2010 07:25 Gecko wrote:i got this after running the program for 20 minutes with the condition of 5 stalkers and 25 probes and no warpgate technology + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:46.79: 75M 0G 34E 13/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:54.80: 66M 0G 38E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:11.80: 172M 0G 48E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.79: 170M 0G 51E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.79: 170M 0G 51E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:28.80: 273M 17G 58E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:35.83: 287M 27G 62E 16/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:37.35: 150M 29G 62E 16/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:37.35: 0M 29G 62E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:45.80: 60M 45G 67E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:55.80: 100M 64G 73E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:02.80: 60M 77G 77E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:20.80: 185M 111G 87E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 188M 121G 90E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:37.80: 189M 94G 96E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:37.80: 139M 94G 96E 22/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
3:37.80: 139M 94G 71E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:46.09: 125M 109G 76E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:50.65: 50M 68G 79E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:04.08: 156M 94G 86E 25/ 34S - Build Probe
4:07.83: 150M 101G 88E 26/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:07.83: 25M 51G 88E 28/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:21.08: 184M 76G 71E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:28.09: 220M 89G 75E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:28.50: 100M 40G 75E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:39.83: 136M 61G 81E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.83: 11M 11G 81E 33/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:42.84: 50M 17G 58E 33/ 34S - Build Probe
4:42.84: 0M 17G 58E 34/ 34S - Chrono Nexus
4:54.18: 145M 39G 39E 34/ 42S - Build Probe
4:54.18: 95M 39G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:07.83: 272M 65G 22E 35/ 42S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 2 Gateway 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 25 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: It comes slightly later but its less all in
you really are gonna want warpgate tech in there to reinforce.
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after running through it on yabot once or twice last night and viewing some of my other replays. The difference between the push being at their door at 5 minutes and being there at 5:30 is night and day. If you arent there at 5 minutes ready to go, dont bother. If you are, then it might be along the same lines as a 7RR in effectiveness, maybe slightly more effective.
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I was watching some high level euro games today (tarson vs white-ra) and noticed, that like many players, tarson opted not to scout at all. That might be an artifact of playing against white-ra a lot, and knowing his play style, but I have seen other terrans opt out of SCV scouting.
Tarson was going a banshee/tank build, that at 5 minutes had him with about 5 marines and a bunch of tech buildings just starting to kick into production.
I think at high levels, this 5stalker rush could hurt greedy terrans who don't scout, although low-mid diamond, most terran players are probably SCV scouting.
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On November 16 2010 07:52 AWESOME1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:49 tetramaster wrote:
Tried it; it's pretty solid. Beats Any FE strat pretty badly (as does any early rush type play), and beats slowlings and slowlots pretty well. Also not bad against T especially if you catch them with your 5 stalkers since in small numbers, stalkers>bio (less than 7-8 total units for bio.)
Tip: If you're going to try this against a terran player and they've got marauders, Focus fire those bastards and get them out of the way. Tossing in a zealot to help soak up some marine fire helps when your 2nd round of warp is ready. You cant really play this vs good terrans... they just get 1-2 bunkers when they scout your base. No chance to win in your first push and you are behind in eco.
I caught the T player in the middle of dropping bunkers; killed the building SCV and dropped the first wave of opponent units (granted, VERY risky against a T player that isn't going FE, near suicide unless they're doing 1/1/1.
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At 6 minutes you can have 2 stalkers 2 Zealots and 2 DT's with saturation (22 probes) on 3gate if done correctly. Why would you waste your time with 5 zealots and 3 stalkers in the same timeframe or 5 stalkers in 5 minutes with a crap eco?
+ Show Spoiler +Waypoint 3 satisfied:
6:13.31: 79M 27G 34E 34/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Twilight Council 1 Dark Shrine
Units: 22 Probe 2 Zealot 2 Stalker 2 Dark Templar
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
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The replay vs the zerg was pretty bad. He forgot to make drones and went for an FE in steppes of war?
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On November 16 2010 04:38 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 02:05 Phrencys wrote:Your BO: 9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
11 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
15 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
16 Stalker
18 Pylon
19 Stalker[2]
24 Pylon
26 Transform to Warpgate[2]
26 Stalker[2] 5 Stalkers at the 4:57 mark # of probes: 17 Switch that to 5 Chrono Boosts on WarpGate, and the 5 Stalkers are completed at 4:51, according to the simulator.
I either did 4 or 5 CBs dont remember but heres a replay of me doing it to a Terran that was doin 2 rax expo
PvT 5 stalker 5 mins
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On November 15 2010 18:45 Chronicle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:55 Sawyer wrote:On November 15 2010 14:40 Chronicle wrote:On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg? Because then its a Korean 4 gate. False. He clearly stated that you only make 2 gates, not 4. Korean 2 gate perhap? x.x Your not not the sharpest tool in the box. Learn 2 Read posts before you make stupid comments.
its "you're" not "your"
and he's right, its not a korean 4 gate, because there's only 2 gates
l2read yourself
kthxbai
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 16 2010 09:07 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 18:45 Chronicle wrote:On November 15 2010 15:55 Sawyer wrote:On November 15 2010 14:40 Chronicle wrote:On November 15 2010 14:22 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not just make only zealots vs Zerg? Because then its a Korean 4 gate. False. He clearly stated that you only make 2 gates, not 4. Korean 2 gate perhap? x.x Your not not the sharpest tool in the box. Learn 2 Read posts before you make stupid comments. its "you're" not "your" and he's right, its not a korean 4 gate, because there's only 2 gates l2read yourself kthxbai
You are either blind or very stupid. L2Read, more specifically the below quote. I'll even highlight the important parts so it is easier for your feeble mind to take in.
On November 15 2010 14:59 Chronicle wrote:
No because it uses 2 gates not 4 with less units overall. Costwise Stalkers are twice as expensive as zealots which is why you have less gateways. A Korean 4 gate done correctly can have 7 zealots out with 4 gates with a better econ around the same time this comes out, with the ability to continually warp in 4 zealots each cycle.
User was banned for this post.
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On November 16 2010 08:04 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I was watching some high level euro games today (tarson vs white-ra) and noticed, that like many players, tarson opted not to scout at all. That might be an artifact of playing against white-ra a lot, and knowing his play style, but I have seen other terrans opt out of SCV scouting.
Tarson was going a banshee/tank build, that at 5 minutes had him with about 5 marines and a bunch of tech buildings just starting to kick into production.
I think at high levels, this 5stalker rush could hurt greedy terrans who don't scout, although low-mid diamond, most terran players are probably SCV scouting.
Tarson is a player known for not scouting or scouting late. As he says: "If I know my build is safe fom early agression, and that my BO doesnt really depend on their build(cloak banshee is one such build, if you deny scouting), why should I sacrifice that economy for unneeded information".
With banshees vs P, all you need to know is whether its a 4gate or not. If its not a 4 gate, and there is no robo, you already ahead due to lack of detection, so if the Terran knows its not a 4gate, which can be accomplished with a later SCV scout(when each SCV matter less), he only has to account for Robo, as in other cases he has already achieved a BO win.
If that late SCV scout does see a 4 warpgate, 1-2 bunkers and some extra marines with repair will hold untill you get banshees out, then the protoss is in trouble.
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I thought this sounded amazing until I read the 8pylon 8gate.
The only viability I think this has is in team games or 4-player maps.
Steppes vs. Zerg is the only other time I can see this build working, as a lot of zerg players tend to do blind openers (which is this case here).
Still, I plan to share this with my 2's toss partner, as this + 7RR seems like it might win outright.
edit: i watched this replay, and the zerg clearly beat you. The only reason he lost is because he stopped mining. Through everything he was economically ahead of you up until he quit mining and afk'd 13 drones in his base for about a minute. You also micro'd them poorly and I think you could have done better, so maybe it cancels out.
Very interesting though... I need to find this BOoptimizer.
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On November 16 2010 09:33 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 08:04 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I was watching some high level euro games today (tarson vs white-ra) and noticed, that like many players, tarson opted not to scout at all. That might be an artifact of playing against white-ra a lot, and knowing his play style, but I have seen other terrans opt out of SCV scouting.
Tarson was going a banshee/tank build, that at 5 minutes had him with about 5 marines and a bunch of tech buildings just starting to kick into production.
I think at high levels, this 5stalker rush could hurt greedy terrans who don't scout, although low-mid diamond, most terran players are probably SCV scouting. Tarson is a player known for not scouting or scouting late. As he says: "If I know my build is safe fom early agression, and that my BO doesnt really depend on their build(cloak banshee is one such build, if you deny scouting), why should I sacrifice that economy for unneeded information". With banshees vs P, all you need to know is whether its a 4gate or not. If its not a 4 gate, and there is no robo, you already ahead due to lack of detection, so if the Terran knows its not a 4gate, which can be accomplished with a later SCV scout(when each SCV matter less), he only has to account for Robo, as in other cases he has already achieved a BO win. If that late SCV scout does see a 4 warpgate, 1-2 bunkers and some extra marines with repair will hold untill you get banshees out, then the protoss is in trouble.
The point is that some cheeses can take advantage of terrans who don't scout. Even if the fast banshee is safe vs standard play, something like 5stalkers hitting just before the banshee comes out can do a ton of damage.
This build order is obviously cheesey, but it could do a lot of damage vs someone who isn't ready for it
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Interesting, it's nice to see people come up with such interesting builds with these programs. Perhaps I should finally try them out xD
yeah against PvZ it would be risky, but in PvP it would seem relatively safe, not standard and not economical but "safe", reason being protoss usually 4gate or 3gate robo or other things that won't prepare them for 5 stalkers
problem is i'm not sure if you will be able to suceed well if he scouts you
we need to find if for example a standard protoss who scouts such an early gate will be able to put a forge up in time with enough canons while not having a worse economy than Protoss (doesn't matter how bad the econ is, as anything less than equal will give the 5 Stalker rush player an advatage, especially since he has 5 mobile stalkers vs static defense) or is able to get some stalkers going himself, and able to reinforce slowly with a better economy than the rusher since the rusher will only have about 12 probes and therefore may not be able to maintain the 5 stalker advantage
perhaps since you know how to use the build order tester you could do this? (probably under the conditions that the probe scouts after a 12 gate, or to be safe and even more sure about this build may be after their 9 pylon, etc.)
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this is nothing like the 7rr, this is completely all in . the 7rr maintains atleast 17 drones..
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A couple of variations have already been posted, that have a lot more probes.
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On November 16 2010 13:05 Hurkyl wrote:
A couple of variations have already been posted, that have a lot more probes.
link?
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Here is my version. Phrencys fed it into the build calculator in this post. (Note the simulated time goes down to 4:51 with 5 Chrono Boosts on the Warp Gate research)
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I watched your replay and was amazed at the speed of the 5 stalkers. I wonder if you could possibly transition by dropping a 3rd gateway when you start microing your 5 stalkers, and pulling probes off gas, so you can reinforce with 3 Zealots at a time if your opponent responds again with mass lings.
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On November 16 2010 12:40 mikell wrote:
this is nothing like the 7rr, this is completely all in . the 7rr maintains atleast 17 drones..
The "correct" version has 3 Warpgates, 5 Stalkers at 5 minutes and still 20 Probes (normal production with Chronoboost support would most likely be around 23-24 at that point).
I don't see why people would disregard the build just because the one of the OP is based on a program flaw.
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okay i finally got to try this build against my zerg friend and i can say that beyond the shadow of a doubt this build sucks.
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holy shit, 9pylon 9gate variation of this is pretty goddamn sick. 5 Stalkers and spare minerals to build more gates and reinforce, or just expo.
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On November 16 2010 14:32 Jayrod wrote:
okay i finally got to try this build against my zerg friend and i can say that beyond the shadow of a doubt this build sucks.
like most all in/cheese builds if they are scouted they are easily defended
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Russian Federation20 Posts
I've tried this build and it works fine against T and P, not that good against Z, though it is possible to win sometimes. The main question for me is when should I send the scouting probe, haven't figure it out yet.
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On November 16 2010 21:27 Pitsot wrote:
I've tried this build and it works fine against T and P, not that good against Z, though it is possible to win sometimes. The main question for me is when should I send the scouting probe, haven't figure it out yet.
I scout after the 9/10 pylon and when i see the zerg going gas/pool i abandon the build.... I dont think it will work vs speedlings.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but if those 5 Stalkers are there before ling speed has finished I can't see how it'd be a bad strat vs Zerg. Pool + speed research takes 3 minutes all by itself (assuming you have 100 gas by the time the Pool is done, it'll be longer if not). If properly micro'd I have no idea how the Zerg would manage a surround unless you walked right into it. The only option for the Z would be to stall and minimise the damage you do until the upgrade is done, but you could do alot of damage in that time.
It just depends on how fast the Zerg gets gas but I'd say you'd be there before the vast majority of Z's have it done.
I know I usually don't start gas until fairly late compared to most Z, so your strat would most likely screw with me quite badly. 
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14 pool 16 hatch has speed finished at ~6:00.
Now that I think about it, that would probably also stop the stalker rush.
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Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
Looks very promising, will try it, thanks!
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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
This is now my cheese of choice.
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God dammit this is annoying. I didn't realize he was going 5stalker rather than regular korean 4wg because he killed my probe and I couldn't see whether he made 2 more gates or not. Then he walks up my ramp and in anticipation of korea 4wg I only had zealots and a stalker and no FF. Fml.
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I've been comparing two 9 Pylon/9 Gateway builds and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I bolded the Stalker timings.
20 Probes:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:15.11: 42M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 54M 3G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 4M 3G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 117M 35G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:50.96: 199M 67G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:51.07: 150M 67G 70E 16/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:05.03: 111M 94G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 111M 94G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 86M 49G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 193M 82G 64E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:25.03: 193M 82G 39E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:31.34: 100M 94G 43E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:45.03: 127M 120G 50E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:56.34: 239M 141G 32E 17/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:57.49: 125M 94G 32E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:02.54: 50M 53G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 25M 58G 37E 22/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:12.64: 100M 72G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:19.54: 64M 85G 20E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 107M 103G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:36.54: 190M 118G 4E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:39.58: 173M 124G 6E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:49.58: 285M 143G 12E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:49.58: 160M 93G 12E 26/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:59.58: 148M 62G 17E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:04.58: 81M 21G 20E 30/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 20 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
21 Probes:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:16.96: 57M 0G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 133M 24G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.96: 150M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.96: 0M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:50.96: 64M 52G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:05.03: 133M 79G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 133M 79G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 108M 34G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:12.66: 100M 43G 57E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:24.96: 107M 67G 64E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 58M 67G 64E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.46: 150M 85G 45E 18/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:45.03: 99M 105G 50E 18/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:47.51: 125M 110G 27E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:59.35: 125M 82G 34E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:04.09: 50M 41G 36E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 10M 43G 37E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:21.09: 179M 73G 21E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:21.09: 129M 73G 21E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:28.67: 108M 88G 25E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:38.09: 212M 106G 5E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 179M 108G 6E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:41.35: 199M 112G 7E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:51.35: 190M 81G 13E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:01.43: 184M 50G 18E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:06.43: 119M 10G 21E 31/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 21 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
Which build do you think is better? I would lean towards the 21 Probe build. It has has a slightly better economy and gets the first Stalker out significantly faster (~ 3:48 vs. 3:57 in idealized wonderland) for harassing. The downside of the build that Stalker 2-5 would be delayed roughly 2 seconds compared to the 20 Probe build, but imho it's a decent trade for a faster Stalker and better eco.
A "normal" standard build with some chronoboosted probes would probably have around 24 probes at the 5:06 mark. I really don't get why people still think it's an All-in build.
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Dudemeister although your build looks interesting the replay you posted is terrible. The poor zerg missed click his probes and did not harvest for 1 minute. With proper stalker micro you could have ended his pain a lot sooner imo.
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After testing it a bit more, this is actually pretty good vs T, haven't tried much vs P.
A few games, I have been building my buildings near my expo kinda like walling off. Terrans see this as a FE and they literally have no defenses. Ez win.
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I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol
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On November 17 2010 13:51 Roblicious wrote:
I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol
What league/point range were your opponents?
On a different note: What do you think is a good transition when doing a eco 9/9 rush?
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12 win / 3 loss with 1600-1900 ^^
Good Work ;d
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Guys, i think there are a two questions that need to be answered!
On what map and against what race is it strongest?
Don´t do some random build against anything. That will always lose more than it should if used right.
Do you intend to make it an All-In build?
Yes? Don´t think about probecount specifically because you take those probes with the attack anyway. You have to win with that single push so there is NO Follow up and no need for Economy of any kind. You may want to leave some probes to get 1-2 reinforcements. The key to winning is the Timing so its our priority.
No?
Then you need to think about whats the latest timing you can afford to do that push against your preferred race. That timing differs each race. And build a followup around it. You have to aim for doing atleast so much dmg that your economy can keep up with his.
I´m not a Protoss-Player but i think thats raceindependent knowledge.
In this thread are some builds aiming for complete different things. Sort that out first.
mfg Tyrannon
Ignore my bad english please
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lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous
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Anyone have some replays vs Z of the 3/4 gate variants that were posted on this page and the previous one?
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Russian Federation20 Posts
On November 18 2010 01:53 Nihilnovi wrote:
lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous
How did you manage to lose having 5 stalkers vs 2 zeals + 1 stalker? Doesn't make any sense to me.
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On November 18 2010 02:36 Pitsot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 01:53 Nihilnovi wrote:
lost about 10-15 games in a row doign this, 5 stalkers hit at 5 min precisely with proxy pylon, what has happend thus far:
v P: held off with 2 zeals + 1 stalker and probe pull or standard 4 gate
v T: held off by any build with bunker at ramp(read: 10/10 T at 2k diamond), havent even been close to doing any damage whatsoever
v Z: held off by speedlings, even if it does some damage ur sitting on two gates and what happens next is that a non-idiot zerg spends a round of larvae only on drones and ur 10 workers behind
i really dont think this is viable anywhere near a higher level, stalkers are just such bad units cost for cost, especially early game, it's ridiculous How did you manage to lose having 5 stalkers vs 2 zeals + 1 stalker? Doesn't make any sense to me.
He probe-pulled and promptly stomped me with two warp cycles from 4 gates as opposed to my 2 shortly thereafter.
edit: a normal 4 gate is really not far away from this, just fyi afaik it hits at 6 min, so you have a really tiny window to actually do anything, and stalkers just take ages to kill zealots.
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Also tried the build and it really does make wonders for my playstyle. I like to be aggressive early game or atleast have some kind of control of whats happening, even if the rush does little to no damage I feel more safe to do what I want now. Cheers!
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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
Pretty solid build. I was playing 3v3 with 2 of my protoss friends and randomed protoss myself. All 3 of us did this build for the lulz. I got speedling rushed just before my 3 stalkers popped, losing the majority of my probes, and we were still able to win the game (did really good damage on our counter attack).
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On November 17 2010 18:20 Barook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 13:51 Roblicious wrote:
I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol What league/point range were your opponents? On a different note: What do you think is a good transition when doing a eco 9/9 rush?
I did this on my buddies account actually, Went from 1700-2004 plat (yeah thats right 2k plat) and got promoted to 1640 diamond from 2004 plat rating
But I have been doing this on my own account as well, I went from 1575 to 1690 diamond with it as well
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Polished variation of this build to be viable for very strong early push with less economic damage.
I have to say it works pretty well PvP PvT. PvZ is a bit trickier and what's really key is actions after the initial push
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Russian Federation20 Posts
PvZ is tricky indeed. As far as I'm using this build it seems to me that it is good to expand after the first push in case if it's failed or didn't kill the Zerg right away. Then it becomes similar to 3 Gate FE. Also, zealot+sentry is better if there is no roaches. So, my first wave consists of stalkers as they are faster to move across the map and not that bad until serious number of speedlings come out, then I add zealots and sentries.
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Tried this out a bunch of times vs T.
Interesting things to note:
You can actually do significant damage vs 3rax openers; this tends to hit RIGHT before they get a critical mass of marauders, and 5 stalkers easily beats 2 marauders+ 1 marine, as long as you focus down the marauders first.
It will have a LOT of difficulty against a 2 rax opener that decides to go on the offensive, but you can usually pull back and pick off a few marines if they continue to engage.
Does NOT work against players that manage to get a bunker up before the 5 minute mark, and have enough forces behind the bunker to shoot as well (4 marines in 1 bunker won't be enough to hold back 5+ stalkers before the bunker falls and the marines die. A marauder and 2 marines, or 2 marauders in a bunker will hold this without an issue.
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On November 16 2010 02:37 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 02:15 Perscienter wrote:Cheese. Will fail against - speedlings
- marauders
- bunkers on a choke
- units and one spine crawler on a choke
- etc.
Speedlings come out way later. You'll have plenty of time to snipe of overlords, queens and force him to pump lings instead of drones. 2 fast stalkers are a great tactic against Zergs, 5 I'm not sure about, but you still have a timing window.
This doesn't make sense. If I'm going slings over roaches, I'll 13 pool, pool starts at 2:10 ish, finishes 3:10, and you should have the 100 gas to immediately research, putting sling upgrade at just over 5 minutes. If you include the base walk time, it's going to be unpleasant fighting anything more than
6-8 lings.
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Hey guys, 1900 diamond on EU server here,
I've been testing the builds presented in this thread and managed to draw some conclusions that I want to share with you.
1. The 4gw build presented by shingbi is in my opinion far more powerful than the 2gw build and I will explain why.
Although in theory the 4gw build is slower than the 2gw one, in practice things are different. Since this is an aggressive build and not a defensive one, in practice what is important is the time it takes you to assembly the majority of your army at the door of the opponent and not the time it takes you to produce your army. With the 2 gw build you have to wait for the 2 of the 5 stalkers army (40% of your army) that you built from your gateways (before you had the warp gates) to get to the other side of the map. In the 4 gw build case you only have to wait for 1 stalker out of the 5 stalkers and 1 zealot army (16% of your army) to get to the door of your opponent.
So, in reality, you will be able to commence fighting with a 5 units army at about the same time in both cases. On large 4 players maps it might be that the 4gw is even faster, especially if you are in cross position.
On top of that the 4gw build gets you 18 workers instead of 17 and a greater producing infrastructure. In reality, having a greater producing infrastructure is very helpful even if your economy cannot sustain it fully as it accounts for the human error of not making units at the very precise moment your gws colldowns are over. This is a build where you have to constantly micro your ass out against workers, zealots, speedlings and so on. It is only human that you miss the perfect moment of warping in more units. With the 4gw build this is not such a big deal but with the 2 gw build it is a very big deal as you can only produce 2 units at a time and once you stopped applying enough pressure with a rush build your may start looking for the "g" key on your keyboard and press it twice. Coming back in the game after failing one of these rushes is only possible if you managed to do significant economy/infrastructure damage to compensate for your low economy.
2. Both the 2gw and 4gw build work great vs Protoss. I've been trying it against coreean 4 gw, fast immortal, fast sentry and standard 4 gw. At my level the current PvP metagame involves a lot of Robo builds will fall prey to these rushes.
Against the coreen 4gw you must spot it coming. Use your first stalker to scout your base. If you don't manage to deny the proxy pylons then warp your stalkers in your base and defend while not losing too many probes. Once you cleared your base go immediately for the kill before they can forge up or anything like that. They will also have a low economy.
Against fast immortal focus down the immortal asap. Against sentry defence, if he splits you army on the ramp just keep your entire army near the ff so you can hit up with all your stalkers. Do not retreat the units in the back as you will lose your early fire power advantage.
Here are a couple of replays using the 2gw build vs toss:
1800 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106773-1v1-protoss-delta-quadrant
1200 Diamond opponent (he was proly on a long wining streak since he got to play with me)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106772-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war
3. The 4gw rush works great vs zerg but I cannot say the same about the 2gw with which I failed majority of the times. In the case of zerg, the hardest step for me is to secure the proxy pylon as it is easy for them to spot it with overlords.
Try to kill as many zerglings as possible before they get speed upgrade to prevent them from later surrounding you. If they keep their zerglings away then go for overlords and supply block them don't get greedy on their expo hatchery. Even if you manage to kill the expo if they accumulate enough speedlings you will lose anyway.
Here are a couple of replays using the 4 gw build:
1900 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106774-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
1500 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106776-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
I haven't encounter a 7roach all-in build yet to see how it works against that.
4. Against terran I gave up using these builds. It seems to fail against terrans who go concussive shells first. They will be able to bring some scvs to draw fire and snipe your stalkers one at a time.
5. How to defend against these stalker rushes?
As terran, abort any tech builds and get marauders with concussive. Try to setup a bunker in a position where toss can't easily go around.
As zerg, try to acumulate zerglings till speed upgrade is finished. Do not engage protoss without speed upgrade nor try to scare him away with your slowlings unless you caught the protoss in a corner or somewhere where he can't micro the stalkers.
As toss, besides mirror build try getting multiple forcefields while waiting for your bigger economy to kick in but that takes a lot of skill.
For all races, denying the proxy pylon on the 4gw build will have a very big impact especially on large maps which is why, when using these builds don't get greedy and setup the proxy pylon in his face. Better build it a little bit further from his base where he can't scout it, and avoid building it in the rage of xel'naga towers. You can later build a second pylon in the opponent's base while applying pressure.
6. How to spot these builds?
The best indicator I can think of is the continuous cronoboost animation on the core. Whenever you see a toss cronoboosting his core several times it means he is up for some early aggression otherwise there's no point in spending macro energy on the warp technology.
Also the early GW is a good indicator.
Feedback would be appreciated!
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So has anyone who did this won against a 2gate?
If you go with this build: + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
16 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
17 Pylon
17 Gateway
17 Stalker
19 Stalker
22 Pylon
24 Transform to Warpgate[2]
24 Stalker[3]
Then he will have a zealot in your base before your stalker completes, with more on the way.
He will ignore your stalker and start attacking your probes.
I've tried running away with probes whilst making more stalkers, but that didn't work, it takes too long for a stalker to kill a zealot and I lost too much mining time.
Perhaps blocking the ramp with an extra pylon helps? or simply switching the build when you scout 2gate and chrone a zealot and stalker out first?
The map we tried it on was Steppes of War btw.
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I would not go for a zealot as you suggested because that zealot will most certainly die without doing any actual damage to the opponent. Maybe you will manage to kill his first zealot if he is stupid enough not to wait for his second zealot. I would just try to speed up my first stalker by cronoboosting it.
If you are in close positions I would suggest walling in just as you do against a zerg and use a pylon to temporarily shut the door and buy some time for the stalker to get out. Normally it is not smart to wall against a toss but in this case you want to be the aggressor so the layout of your base is not that important as you want to take the fight to his base not yours.
I honestly believe that if he opens 2gw zealots and you manage to delay him without taking any damage (loosing a pylon isn't such a big drama, unless it is the only thing powering all your GWs in which case you don't deserve to win anyway) then, when your build kicks in, he will have no way of repelling your attack.
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I have just encountered a protoss player who defended very nicely against my 4gw stalker rush. We were both at around 2k in diamond league. Considering that I scouted, my timing was impeccable, I had a 5stalker+1zealot army at his door at 5:35. He went 3gw+robo and delayed me with forcefields until he gather a big enough army to confront me. At some point he intentionally let me get into his base and split my army with ff on ramp.
The only thing I can think of that could have helped me win with the rush is having built my second proxy pylon closer to his base so I can warp in units directly in his base as soon as I got up a bit. Also I am now considering not bringing the zealots first on ramp vs toss because if my army gets split my zealots die without doing any damage whereas stalkers I can keep on ramp while shooting his zealots. If he brings his zealots to attack my stalkers in front then at least my stalkers in the back will be able to do some damage.
Here you have the replay, I suggest only watching it till minute 9:00, the rest is not relevant:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107998-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
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I've tried this against my terran friend a couple of days ago.
Not as good as you think it is, especially if they go marauder heavy with conc shells. I wasn't able to kite, micro or anything, just continue pounding his marauders while they slowly whittled away at my stalkers.
I was thinking of sniping tech labs or scvs but he went barracks heavy so there were way too many marauders to keep up. I did scout, but by the time I saw the multiple barracks I was already committed to the rush.
Not to say the build is bad. 5 stalkers at 5 minutes is quite substantial, and I could see it doing a lot of damage to zergs go roaches and such. Just keep in mind there are builds that can counter this.
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On November 23 2010 05:36 OfficerTJHooker wrote:
I've tried this against my terran friend a couple of days ago.
Not as good as you think it is, especially if they go marauder heavy with conc shells. I wasn't able to kite, micro or anything, just continue pounding his marauders while they slowly whittled away at my stalkers.
I was thinking of sniping tech labs or scvs but he went barracks heavy so there were way too many marauders to keep up. I did scout, but by the time I saw the multiple barracks I was already committed to the rush.
Not to say the build is bad. 5 stalkers at 5 minutes is quite substantial, and I could see it doing a lot of damage to zergs go roaches and such. Just keep in mind there are builds that can counter this.
I had the same problem against Terran so I don't use any such builds in PvT anymore. It is way too risky.
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The 7 roach rush has been a key to my ascension from Bronze to Silver to Gold in only two days. The version of it in this video is about 15 seconds later than I can manage with my gold level skills. 15 seconds would have made all the difference as the pylon would have been taken out. This Zerg player missed the 10 extractor trick and a few other details in the optimal 7 RR build. It is still close though and shows that the 5 stalker rush will work well against many players. If I can get my 2v2 partner to learn it. We'd easily rise through the ladder.
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Wow thanks so much. I did a variation of this on 2v2 with stalkers + speedlings/ 7 roaches on 2v2. We went 23-7 with it. Good stuff.
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On November 23 2010 10:06 Lessdeth wrote:
The 7 roach rush has been a key to my ascension from Bronze to Silver to Gold in only two days. The version of it in this video is about 15 seconds later than I can manage with my gold level skills. 15 seconds would have made all the difference as the pylon would have been taken out. This Zerg player missed the 10 extractor trick and a few other details in the optimal 7 RR build. It is still close though and shows that the 5 stalker rush will work well against many players. If I can get my 2v2 partner to learn it. We'd easily rise through the ladder.
Do you mind posting a replay with your best 7rr timing? I am very curious to see it and compare it with my 4gw timings.
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I like this build, and often transition to DTs and either immortals or carriers, depending on how bad the initial stuff cripples my opponent. I find the terrans I play (I am the suck, in the suck league) usually don't go detection when faced with this opener, which makes DTs a good transition after my second base has some production going.
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On November 15 2010 10:14 McMonty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:04 creamwolf wrote:
I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-. I call BS. No way that one of your 1700-1900 level opponents opened 3 supply depots.
I open with 3 supply depots when I'm 3 rax proxying against Toss or against Terran, because TvT is god awful and its like playing chess in the dark. One WRONG MOVE, and bam your dead because viking/tanks out of position is so painful...
Oh and I'm a 1700-1900 terran :D
But on the other note, this stalker push is unbelievably effective, even with a bunker and units inside. they either pick off all my workers, or just kill me outright. But now that I know the exact build, it may be easier to counter it.
However, correct me if I'm wrong, but if i was a Toss/Zerg player, 2-3 well placed cannons/spine crawlers and some units could hold this off and allow you to push ahead economically and crush your opponent later?
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Russian Federation20 Posts
On November 24 2010 02:15 JasonX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:14 McMonty wrote:On November 15 2010 10:04 creamwolf wrote:
I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-. I call BS. No way that one of your 1700-1900 level opponents opened 3 supply depots. I open with 3 supply depots when I'm 3 rax proxying against Toss or against Terran, because TvT is god awful and its like playing chess in the dark. One WRONG MOVE, and bam your dead because viking/tanks out of position is so painful... Oh and I'm a 1700-1900 terran :D But on the other note, this stalker push is unbelievably effective, even with a bunker and units inside. they either pick off all my workers, or just kill me outright. But now that I know the exact build, it may be easier to counter it. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but 2-3 well placed cannons and some units could hold this off and allow you to push ahead economically and crush your opponent later?
3 cannons cost more than 1 nexus, so if I see it I just expand.
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I have just failed with the 4gw stalker rush vs a 2050 diamond zerg with a 14 drones economy.
I know I should have aborted my build when I saw no expansion but I am showing this replay to you to see how powerful a zerg can be nowadays while sitting on one base and only making speedlings and roaches.
My 18 probes/1 asimilator/4 gw were not enough against his 14 drones/1 extractor/1 hatch on a map such as blistering sands. You draw the conclusions.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108307-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
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On November 22 2010 21:41 Roban wrote:So has anyone who did this won against a 2gate? If you go with this build: + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
16 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
17 Pylon
17 Gateway
17 Stalker
19 Stalker
22 Pylon
24 Transform to Warpgate[2]
24 Stalker[3] Then he will have a zealot in your base before your stalker completes, with more on the way. He will ignore your stalker and start attacking your probes. I've tried running away with probes whilst making more stalkers, but that didn't work, it takes too long for a stalker to kill a zealot and I lost too much mining time. Perhaps blocking the ramp with an extra pylon helps? or simply switching the build when you scout 2gate and chrone a zealot and stalker out first? The map we tried it on was Steppes of War btw.
Blocking ramp with buildings till your stalkers get out works well vs 2 gw zealot rush on a map such as steppes of war. I am now considering walling of vs toss whenever I do the stalker 4gw rush opening (placing buildings at ramp just as you do against zerg and using a pylon to block the small gap that I will later destroy to get out).
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I decided to give it another try with the 4gw stalker rush vs a terran. I happened to came across a 3rax opening on steppes of war (1700 terran).
The keys to success are:
1. Applying early pressure with your first stalker and snipe a marine.
2. Placing your second proxy pylon so you can warp units up his base (or into his backside as some might say . This pylon will become a magnet for the terran as he doesn't want you warping in units in his base. Take advantage out of this by advancing your troops on ramp few seconds after placing this pylon and you have a good chance of catching him out of position while he is focus firing the pylon. It is a win-win situation for you, you either establish the pylon or you kill several of his units.
Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108322-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war
The very interesting part is that terran's economy didn't get the chance to get past 19 scvs which means that if you don't manage to win with this but have an equitable fight you will still be in a good position to continue the macro game from this point.
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On November 24 2010 04:38 painprophet wrote:I decided to give it another try with the 4gw stalker rush vs a terran. I happened to came across a 3rax opening on steppes of war (1700 terran). The keys to success are: 1. Applying early pressure with your first stalker and snipe a marine. 2. Placing your second proxy pylon so you can warp units up his base (or into his backside as some might say . This pylon will become a magnet for the terran as he doesn't want you warping in units in his base. Take advantage out of this by advancing your troops on ramp few seconds after placing this pylon and you have a good chance of catching him out of position while he is focus firing the pylon. It is a win-win situation for you, you either establish the pylon or you kill several of his units.Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108322-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-warThe very interesting part is that terran's economy didn't get the chance to get past 19 scvs which means that if you don't manage to win with this but have an equitable fight you will still be in a good position to continue the macro game from this point.
He had 21 at one point. Only 16 of them were needed to pump units from the 3 barracks with 2 tech labs., ignoring both mules and supply depots. He also had 400 minerals banked up around the time you broke through.
You had effectively won before the second proxy pylon finished.
(his lack of focus fire and concussive shells also helped you)
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On November 24 2010 05:06 Hurkyl wrote:
You had effectively won before the second proxy pylon finished.
You are right but seeing how he reacted to my second proxy pylon gave me the idea of doing this on purpose and earlier next time.
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Against t you would be better off trying the 5 zealots 8 stalkers at 6:10 build.
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On November 24 2010 06:32 bobcat wrote:
Against t you would be better off trying the 5 zealots 8 stalkers at 6:10 build.
Can you please post that build?
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This is how you punish a 2k diamond zerg for going hatch first on a long map such as jungle basin where they think its safe to do so.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108371-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin
The way I see part of the PvZ matchup after practicing these rushes for so many times is as following:
If you open with a 10gw you force the zerg to delay his expansion as he needs to get his lings speed upgrade asap in order to resist an early stalker push otherwise he is dead meat as you could see in my replay, or go lings/roach and cut drones. If you see that he reacts to your opening by delaying his expo then I guess you already won something. The 10gw affects your economy a little bit but not as much as it affect the zerg's by forcing him to delay his expo. You then abort the rush build and adjust to a more standard build such as 3gw expo (I still have to see what is the best folow up).
I think you end up a lot better than if you were going straight for the 3gw into expo build which gives zergs enough time to early expand and prepare for your push, especially on large maps.
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thx for the tip I will most definitely try this against T
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and after running '2 warpgates, zealots &4 stalkers in 300 seconds (5min)' for 175 million games:
mainly for PvZ FE
I think this one is safer b/c you'll have a zealot out to defend against early rushes. But only 12 probes. I'll post a 2warpgates, 16 probe, 2 zealot 4 stalker in 5 min results below.
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 1
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 2
0:34.80: 100M 0G 18E 8/ 10S - Build Pylon 1
1:03.12: 150M 0G 34E 8/ 18S - Build Gateway 1
1:13.21: 50M 0G 40E 8/ 18S - Build Probe 3
1:30.21: 95M 0G 50E 9/ 18S - Build Probe 4
1:47.21: 152M 0G 59E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 5
1:47.21: 102M 0G 59E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilato 1r
2:08.12: 172M 0G 71E 11/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:12.05: 50M 0G 73E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 6
2:17.21: 37M 0G 76E 12/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -1
2:17.21: 37M 0G 76E 12/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -2
2:27.30: 100M 14G 82E 12/ 18S - Build Zealot 1
2:58.12: 216M 57G 99E 14/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
2:58.12: 216M 57G 74E 14/ 18S - Build Gateway 2
2:58.12: 66M 57G 74E 14/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:11.01: 100M 25G 81E 14/ 18S - Build Zealot 2
3:18.12: 50M 35G 85E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:25.09: 100M 45G 64E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon 2
3:25.09: 0M 45G 64E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -3
3:38.12: 75M 70G 72E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:49.01: 144M 90G 53E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker 1
3:58.12: 77M 58G 58E 18/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:05.64: 125M 72G 37E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker 2
4:18.12: 79M 46G 44E 20/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:28.67: 146M 66G 25E 20/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:31.45: 164M 71G 2E 20/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:41.45: 227M 90G 7E 20/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:41.45: 227M 90G 7E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker 3
4:48.12: 145M 53G 11E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker 4
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
4:53.12: 51M 12G 14E 24/ 26S
Income: 381M 114G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 2 Pylon 2 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 12 Probe 2 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
with 16 probes:
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 1
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 2
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 3
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 1 ---> by ramp to wall
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway 1 ---> by ramp to wall --> should send scout on 4p map
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe 4
1:35.96: 107M 0G 53E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 5
1:38.69: 75M 0G 54E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator 1
1:52.96: 98M 0G 62E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 6
2:15.03: 222M 0G 75E 12/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:15.03: 72M 0G 75E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 7
2:15.03: 22M 0G 75E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -1
2:15.03: 22M 0G 75E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -2
2:34.06: 150M 27G 86E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway 2
2:47.75: 100M 46G 93E 13/ 18S - Build Zealot 1 ---> safer!
2:54.12: 50M 55G 97E 15/ 18S - Build Probe 8
2:54.12: 0M 55G 97E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas -3
3:05.03: 77M 75G 100E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 77M 75G 75E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:25.03: 178M 63G 86E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:25.75: 184M 65G 62E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker 1 ---> move out w/ zealot
3:30.97: 100M 25G 65E 18/ 18S - Build Pylon 2 ---> proxy it
3:45.03: 103M 51G 73E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:55.97: 189M 72G 54E 18/ 26S - Build Probe 9
3:55.97: 139M 72G 54E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker 2 --> rally to front
4:05.03: 85M 39G 59E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:10.58: 128M 50G 37E 21/ 26S - Build Stalker 3 --> rally to front
4:22.19: 100M 22G 43E 23/ 26S - Build Pylon 3
4:25.03: 22M 27G 45E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:28.56: 50M 34G 22E 23/ 26S - Build Probe 10
4:38.36: 82M 53G 27E 24/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:38.36: 82M 53G 27E 24/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
4:48.36: 168M 72G 8E 24/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:48.36: 168M 72G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker 4 --> warp in @ proxy
4:55.03: 105M 34G 12E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot 2 ---> warp in @ proxy
from here on, constantly produce zealots&stalkers&pylon, and fit in additional gates&probes as much as possible.
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:00.03: 51M 44G 15E 28/ 34S
Income: 555M 114G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 2 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 16 Probe 2 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
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I'm looking for more agressive build for protoss and this "cheese" is very interesting. So i'd tried to improve to make this more economically safe. After a long time run, the SCbuilder give me that :
Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:01.01: 194M 11G 11E 30/ 34S
Income: 672M 114G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 1 Gateway 1 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 20 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
With 20 probes, this build is not an all-in, i think. Note that if you want to pop the 5 stalkers at the 5min mark exactly, you can with 19 probes instead of 20.
Here is the BO :
+ Show Spoiler +0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:17.41: 150M 0G 42E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:25.28: 50M 0G 47E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:36.07: 75M 0G 53E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:43.53: 50M 0G 57E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:00.53: 133M 0G 67E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:17.53: 210M 16G 76E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:17.53: 160M 16G 76E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Minerals
2:22.41: 201M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:22.41: 51M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:34.53: 138M 36G 86E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.86: 150M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.86: 0M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:51.53: 69M 65G 95E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:01.19: 100M 83G 100E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:12.41: 90M 105G 100E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:12.41: 90M 105G 75E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:21.57: 125M 72G 80E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:26.98: 50M 32G 83E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.41: 50M 43G 86E 19/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:46.86: 184M 70G 69E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:52.41: 114M 31G 72E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:03.57: 225M 52G 54E 21/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:03.58: 100M 2G 54E 23/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:08.98: 50M 12G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:12.41: 32M 19G 59E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:25.98: 165M 45G 41E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.86: 144M 50G 43E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:32.41: 57M 7G 45E 27/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:41.30: 151M 24G 25E 27/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:42.98: 168M 27G 1E 27/ 34S - Build Probe
4:45.74: 148M 32G 2E 28/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:55.74: 260M 51G 8E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker
I find it more balanced
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On November 24 2010 22:16 Parian wrote:I'm looking for more agressive build for protoss and this "cheese" is very interesting. So i'd tried to improve to make this more economically safe. After a long time run, the SCbuilder give me that : Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:01.01: 194M 11G 11E 30/ 34S Income: 672M 114G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 1 Gateway 1 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 20 Probe 5 StalkerUpgrades: Warp Gate Transformation With 20 probes, this build is not an all-in, i think. Note that if you want to pop the 5 stalkers at the 5min mark exactly, you can with 19 probes instead of 20. Here is the BO : + Show Spoiler +0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:17.41: 150M 0G 42E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:25.28: 50M 0G 47E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:36.07: 75M 0G 53E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:43.53: 50M 0G 57E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:00.53: 133M 0G 67E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:17.53: 210M 16G 76E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:17.53: 160M 16G 76E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Minerals
2:22.41: 201M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:22.41: 51M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:34.53: 138M 36G 86E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.86: 150M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.86: 0M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:51.53: 69M 65G 95E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:01.19: 100M 83G 100E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:12.41: 90M 105G 100E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:12.41: 90M 105G 75E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:21.57: 125M 72G 80E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:26.98: 50M 32G 83E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.41: 50M 43G 86E 19/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:46.86: 184M 70G 69E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:52.41: 114M 31G 72E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:03.57: 225M 52G 54E 21/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:03.58: 100M 2G 54E 23/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:08.98: 50M 12G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:12.41: 32M 19G 59E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:25.98: 165M 45G 41E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.86: 144M 50G 43E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:32.41: 57M 7G 45E 27/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:41.30: 151M 24G 25E 27/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:42.98: 168M 27G 1E 27/ 34S - Build Probe
4:45.74: 148M 32G 2E 28/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:55.74: 260M 51G 8E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker I find it more balanced
For a few extra seconds, you could easily squeeze in another Warpgate and another probe which helps to keep up pressure.
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:16.96: 57M 0G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 133M 24G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.96: 150M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.96: 0M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:50.96: 64M 52G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:05.03: 133M 79G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 133M 79G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 108M 34G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:12.66: 100M 43G 57E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:24.96: 107M 67G 64E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 58M 67G 64E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.46: 150M 85G 45E 18/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:45.03: 99M 105G 50E 18/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:47.51: 125M 110G 27E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:59.35: 125M 82G 34E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:04.09: 50M 41G 36E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 10M 43G 37E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:21.09: 179M 73G 21E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:21.09: 129M 73G 21E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:28.67: 108M 88G 25E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:38.09: 212M 106G 5E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 179M 108G 6E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:41.35: 199M 112G 7E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:51.35: 190M 81G 13E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:01.43: 184M 50G 18E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
5:06.43: 119M 10G 21E 31/ 34S
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 21 Probe 5 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
That early Stalker of yours which is started at 3:21 is very interesting, though.
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On November 24 2010 11:11 burninglegionx wrote:how about mixing a few zealots vs Z FE? vs 2.1k Z. (i'm 1680~ with 300 bonus pool) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=168308well this was my first attempt at mixing zealots vs FE (hatch before pool) Zerg. But stalkers alone will not do vs mass (speed) lings. And you can't really get sentries off one gas so stalker&sentries isn't an option.
I don't think it is a good idea to focus on zealots vs Zerg FE when we are talking about a 5-6min timing attack. As a matter of fact I think is a very bad idea and I have plenty of reasons for this:
- if the zerg goes for zerglings with no roaches, stalkers allow you to do damage without taking as much damage in return until the speed upgrade is up. as I showed you in the above replay when the zerg went hatch first, by the time the speed upgrade is done, the damage received by the zerg is too big to be able to recover from it. there's no way you can do as much dmg with more zealots and less stalkers. here is the replay again in case you missed it: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108371-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin
- some zergs go zergling/roach in which case zealots become even less effective. a stalker intensive army can deal with both lings and roach.
- one very nice trick to seal the deal early against a zerg is to supply block him by sniping overlords. so suppose the zerg avoids engaging with his lowlings and wait for the speed upgrade you then go for his overlords which means he will not be able to produce enough units to deny your push. you can only achieve this with stalkers.
- stalkers allow you to hit zerg's critical spots from safe positions and avoid being surrounded. if you go zealots heavy you will sometimes have to go into positions that do not favor you (such as his mineral line).
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On November 24 2010 23:26 Barook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:16 Parian wrote:I'm looking for more agressive build for protoss and this "cheese" is very interesting. So i'd tried to improve to make this more economically safe. After a long time run, the SCbuilder give me that : Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:01.01: 194M 11G 11E 30/ 34S Income: 672M 114G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 1 Gateway 1 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 20 Probe 5 StalkerUpgrades: Warp Gate Transformation With 20 probes, this build is not an all-in, i think. Note that if you want to pop the 5 stalkers at the 5min mark exactly, you can with 19 probes instead of 20. Here is the BO : + Show Spoiler +0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:17.41: 150M 0G 42E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:25.28: 50M 0G 47E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:36.07: 75M 0G 53E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:43.53: 50M 0G 57E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
2:00.53: 133M 0G 67E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:06.07: 129M 0G 70E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:17.53: 210M 16G 76E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:17.53: 160M 16G 76E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Minerals
2:22.41: 201M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:22.41: 51M 19G 79E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:34.53: 138M 36G 86E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.86: 150M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.86: 0M 47G 90E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:51.53: 69M 65G 95E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:01.19: 100M 83G 100E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:12.41: 90M 105G 100E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:12.41: 90M 105G 75E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:21.57: 125M 72G 80E 16/ 18S - Build Stalker
3:26.98: 50M 32G 83E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.41: 50M 43G 86E 19/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:46.86: 184M 70G 69E 19/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:52.41: 114M 31G 72E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:03.57: 225M 52G 54E 21/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:03.58: 100M 2G 54E 23/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:08.98: 50M 12G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:12.41: 32M 19G 59E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:25.98: 165M 45G 41E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.86: 144M 50G 43E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:32.41: 57M 7G 45E 27/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:41.30: 151M 24G 25E 27/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
4:42.98: 168M 27G 1E 27/ 34S - Build Probe
4:45.74: 148M 32G 2E 28/ 34S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
4:55.74: 260M 51G 8E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker I find it more balanced For a few extra seconds, you could easily squeeze in another Warpgate and another probe which helps to keep up pressure. + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
1:10.03: 150M 0G 38E 9/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:18.96: 50M 0G 43E 9/ 18S - Build Probe
1:18.96: 0M 0G 43E 10/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:30.29: 71M 0G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:42.96: 110M 0G 32E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.11: 75M 0G 33E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.96: 114M 0G 41E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
2:15.03: 192M 0G 50E 13/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:16.96: 57M 0G 51E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:16.96: 7M 0G 51E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:33.96: 133M 24G 60E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:41.96: 150M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Build Gateway
2:41.96: 0M 35G 65E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:50.96: 64M 52G 70E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
3:05.03: 133M 79G 78E 16/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05.03: 133M 79G 53E 16/ 18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:07.96: 108M 34G 55E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
3:12.66: 100M 43G 57E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
3:24.96: 107M 67G 64E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
3:25.03: 58M 67G 64E 18/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.46: 150M 85G 45E 18/ 18S - Build Gateway
3:45.03: 99M 105G 50E 18/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:47.51: 125M 110G 27E 18/ 26S - Build Stalker
3:59.35: 125M 82G 34E 20/ 26S - Build Stalker
4:04.09: 50M 41G 36E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:05.03: 10M 43G 37E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:21.09: 179M 73G 21E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
4:21.09: 129M 73G 21E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:28.67: 108M 88G 25E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:38.09: 212M 106G 5E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
4:39.58: 179M 108G 6E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:41.35: 199M 112G 7E 25/ 26S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Convert Gateway To WarpGate
4:51.35: 315M 131G 13E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:51.35: 190M 81G 13E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:01.43: 184M 50G 18E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:06.43: 119M 10G 21E 31/ 34S Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 3 Pylon 3 WarpGate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 21 Probe 5 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation That early Stalker of yours which is started at 3:21 is very interesting, though.
Sure you can
But this BO is 5 stalkers in 5min in order to have the right timing push.
In the build that i suggested, the immediatly next step is to build another gateway to reach more four stalker in 50s, but no probe because you don't need it to keep the pressure.
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i just tried it against terran, I guess i got lucky because he opened up with 1rax into cc
Edit: Jk, tried this 3 more times and it failed everytime,
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I got a nice blink rush build. About 18-20 stalkers a zealot and blink in 9mins, with a bunch of probes.
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Just faced this on ladder. 2k point Protoss.
I was in the worst possible scenario. I 14 gated with a 9 scout on Metalopis. I scouted him last because he was close air positions.
When I scouted him my gateway was almost finished. He had one finished gateway, another gateway going up, and his core almost finished.
I responded by making gateway > core > gateway, and making units. I cut probes as much as I needed to in order to make units fluidly.
He attacked when I had 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 sentry against 5 stalkers. This was at the 5:24 mark(the time that his units walked up my ramp) I had 1 stalker and 1 zealot 75% complete from gateway, and warpgate research about 60%. I had 21 harvesters to 12 of him, so I could afford to pull probes, but didn't have to.
My first FF was slightly misplaced and I let 3 stalkers get on top of ramp(I tried to let like 1-2 get up, probably should've just completely blocked though). Was able to trap the stalkers in against the FF and my wall in though. I killed 2 stalkers, only lost 1 zealot. From here on it was pretty easy to just micro and hold my ramp until warp gate tech got up, which then I of course, warpped in a sentry or two and shut down his rush entirely by FFing half his untis up my ramp.
He transitioned into DTs, then left the game.
Overall, I'd say it has about the same potency as most other fast all in rushes. It would probably work best on a map with a wider ramp, like scrap station.
The biggest thread with this build is getting a pylon snipe on your early gateways, in my opinion. If they manage to do that while executing this build, you're in trouble. But if you keep units producing and replace any pylons, you should be able to hold it off by pulling your probe line to get surrounds on stalkers without losing too much.
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Just thought id mention the only reason you won that game is because the zerg had terrible micro and the zerg forgot to put his drones back on minerals when he killed your stalkers, realized he had no money, and left. Only a viable strat if they go 14/15 hatch.
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Here :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168721.jpg)
pvp at about 2000 points diam.
close but worked well...
the key is to not lose more than a few stalker why making damage.
and i have to agree with Mysterymeat, its even hard to make it if the zerg does 15 hatch, when the zerg has wicked micro skills => its simply gg for the protoss
terra can only be beaten if he hasn't got any wallin... or even no bunker.
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I really feel like against any decent player, this is 100% cheese - would never work if properly scouted.
It MIGHT be viable against Protoss, but both T and Z have very hard counters to an army w/o Zealots/Sentries.
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On November 25 2010 16:29 Mysterymeat wrote:
Just thought id mention the only reason you won that game is because the zerg had terrible micro and the zerg forgot to put his drones back on minerals when he killed your stalkers, realized he had no money, and left. Only a viable strat if they go 14/15 hatch.
In my opinion it is a guarantied win if zerg goes 14/15 hatch and you opened with any build that allows you to get 5 stalker at his door steppes at around 5:30. I honestly don't see what zerg can do to defend, the speed upgrade will be finished way too late.
I am surprised to see so many zergs going 14 hatch at GSL without being punished by protosses.
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On November 25 2010 23:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I really feel like against any decent player, this is 100% cheese - would never work if properly scouted.
It MIGHT be viable against Protoss, but both T and Z have very hard counters to an army w/o Zealots/Sentries.
The timing works out such that the following is true when you hit at 5:10-5:25
vs TERRAN
-If going for banshee or thors, will likely have started/have a bunker. In this case, back off and get a stargate/robo depending on how you want to proceed. If no bunker is present and marine count is less than 2x your stalker count, push the attack and add a zealot+stalker or 2 stalkers on next warp in. Minimize your stalker losses and micro the hurt ones back and force the marines that target fire to come closer to the rest of your stalkers.
-If bioball is present, marauder count is LESS than 3 (2 marauder, 2-3 marines)
Push. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, that marauders "destroy" stalkers, but by god, if you're hitting at this point, you won't have to contend with Stim. FOCUS DOWN MARAUDERS, MARINES, TECH LABS , SUPPLY DEPOTS, REACTORS. In that order. Once the enemy forces are either in rout or destroyed, kill off the tech labs to prevent any more marauders from being produced and kill off what you can (if they've bunkered close to their min line to prevent you from pushing further.
-If bioball + bunker is present
Back off. Proceed to expand, add sentries and zealots when possible and treat as a 2 gateway expand.
vs ZERG
Dependent on what you scouted at the start. Early gas+pool indicates speedlings or roaches.
-For 1 basing Zerg (har har)
-If speedlings (pool is in action, if you can spot it, that's good)
You have a VERY narrow timing, where you want to attempt to force as many zerglings out on the field as possible. If you must, sacrifice one stalker at the front to watch when speed kicks in. When it does, fall back and warp in zealots for the next few rounds. Proceed to expand if viable on map, and if not, go for sentry/zealot heavy mix to complement your living stalkers.
-If roaches
5 stalkers vs 6-7 roaches is a no contest of the stalkers as long as you don't just A-move into the roaches. Stop and shoot, micro the hurt ones away from the front, and you'll win as long as you aren't forced into a corner.
-For 2 basing, roughly the same, although they may be caught off-guard and over-drone if you hide your stalkers until you push.
Do NOT attempt this build on maps with narrow chokes though, as 2-3 spines will easily defuse the push on maps like Lost Temple. On a map like Metal or Xel-naga, with the wide open natural, you can dance around the spines and go for drone/queen kills if possible.
Responses vary, though the key thing for defending this is
-SCOUT
if your scout finds this build in action, throw down a bunker/2-3 spines and proceed to beat them in the macro game.
If you're a protoss player, if you scout it, send 2-3 zealots early to delay the push (stalkers in base will need to micro to stay alive and kill zealots), or cause econ damage (no mining time or destroyed probes).
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yea, it's a great build won some games.
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Been doing this in a lot of PvP's, loving it hard.
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Tried one of the variation build with p practice partner~2300 diamond. Very powerful in tvp I think, and like tetramaster says, the p can simply back off if bunker/wall is present, and proceed to macro/expo/void/dt, since I am stuck in my base, and the p is sitting at my ramp with pylon. Nothing for me to punish if p doesn't push in. And if I don't wall, well....... It is very ugly.
This is one of the reasons why I have started to wall again. I can deal with voids usually.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Hey.
I only wached the first reply, but thats quite a standard 4 gate. The idea behind the build in this thread is that your 5 stalkers are supposed to be out allmost a full minute faster, sacrificing economy and production capability.
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On November 15 2010 10:05 Dudemeister wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 09:57 DragonDefonce wrote:
any sort of scouting would shut this down.... thats why every cheese needs to have a layer or two of deception, something that this lacks. I totally agree, thats why I need your help to refine this
no amount of refinement is going to make this work if it gets scouted. if it gets scouted theyll cut workers, etc, kill it with their economy and the games over.
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I have been playing around with a version that hits around 5:15 - 5:25, with 3 Gateways and a bit more eco. Works like this.
9 Chrono
10 Pylon
10 Gateway -> scout -> 1 chrono on nexus
13 gas
15 core
16 pylon
stalker + wg when core finishes, continuously chronoboost wg research
stop probe production at 20 (18 probes)
2 Gateways
stalker
proxy pylon, resume probe production
I know the chrono on 9 looks awkward, but from my tests it has worked out better than chronoing later. Mainly a pvp build, hits before conventional 4gates with same economy but 1 gate less. So even if you don't kill him on the spot, you will be ahead if you cause damage while still building probes.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
ForTheDr3am,
I'm quite sure that as long as you skip the second stalker for another warpgate you get 5 stalkers at the same time with an extra gateway =)
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Roach rush happens around the same time (might be a bit slow because they have to walk to your base), but seems easily scoutable
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Just to re-emphasize from those who've stated before, I don't think this build is really viable vs Terran. A 1Rax FE can hold this (at 5:12 the T can have 3 marines, 2 marauders, and 1-2 bunkers up or halfway done).
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On January 06 2011 07:06 Tsabo wrote:
ForTheDr3am,
I'm quite sure that as long as you skip the second stalker for another warpgate you get 5 stalkers at the same time with an extra gateway =)
Not really, as the second Stalker comes substantially after the 2 gateways. I'd have to cut 2 or 3 more probes to get the 4th gate done in time for warpgate at 5:10, which is a lot more allin and has less reinforcement potential. If you macro perfectly out of three gates it swallows all your ressources anyways.
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Couldn't you beat a wall in with this build by putting a proxy pylon closer to the ramp? Just close enough to warp in on the nearby ledge when your push up the ramp reveals the top?
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On January 06 2011 03:51 ForTheDr3am wrote:
I have been playing around with a version that hits around 5:15 - 5:25, with 3 Gateways and a bit more eco. Works like this.
9 Chrono
10 Pylon
10 Gateway -> scout -> 1 chrono on nexus
13 gas
15 core
16 pylon
stalker + wg when core finishes, continuously chronoboost wg research
stop probe production at 20 (18 probes)
2 Gateways
stalker
proxy pylon, resume probe production
I know the chrono on 9 looks awkward, but from my tests it has worked out better than chronoing later. Mainly a pvp build, hits before conventional 4gates with same economy but 1 gate less. So even if you don't kill him on the spot, you will be ahead if you cause damage while still building probes.
I have a slight variation with your build, as yours seems to emphasize a later rush with more gates.
9 Chrono
10 Pylon
10 Gate > Scout > Chrono
12 Gas
14 Core (immediately once Gateway is done) > Chrono non-stop Warp Gate
14 Gate (cut probes temporarily)
14 Stalker
Proxy pylon near opponent's base (If probe dies, Pylon at base and send out another probe)
Second stalker once second Gate is done
Third stalker once first stalker is out (Chrono this stalker once)
Pylon at base
Gateway
2nd Assimilator?
This build ensures the timing is very close to the original timing. So you still get 5 stalkers to pressure the opponent, and also ensures that you're on 3 gates by the time you warp in your second/third wave of stalkers. Personally I feel that this rush should strike as soon as possible while your opponent has a low amount of units to contend with you.
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speaking for high level play, this build is only viable in PvP, and even then it can be easily defended if your opponent knows what is going on. I beat Mankeyz with this build when he was #9 in USA, PM for replay
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EPT
