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On November 17 2010 00:31 shingbi wrote:
Interesting.
I've been trying out something somewhat similar recently, only with 4 gates.
10 Pylon
10 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Probe*
13 Assimilator > +3
15 Cybernetics Core > Warpgate***
17 Pylon
18 Stalker
20 Gateway [3]
20 Stalker*
22 Pylon
22 Transform to Warpgate [4]
22 Stalker [3]
28 Zealot
This gives you 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot at 5:11 with a second wave of 1 Stalker and 3 Zealots.
So this comes slightly later, but the second wave will hit a lot harder.
I got it from Socke who beat Naniwa (I think) with it twice in a row.
Pretty solid build. I was playing 3v3 with 2 of my protoss friends and randomed protoss myself. All 3 of us did this build for the lulz. I got speedling rushed just before my 3 stalkers popped, losing the majority of my probes, and we were still able to win the game (did really good damage on our counter attack).
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On November 17 2010 18:20 Barook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 13:51 Roblicious wrote:
I won 32 games today with this on the ladder 5 losses lol What league/point range were your opponents? On a different note: What do you think is a good transition when doing a eco 9/9 rush?
I did this on my buddies account actually, Went from 1700-2004 plat (yeah thats right 2k plat) and got promoted to 1640 diamond from 2004 plat rating
But I have been doing this on my own account as well, I went from 1575 to 1690 diamond with it as well
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Polished variation of this build to be viable for very strong early push with less economic damage.
I have to say it works pretty well PvP PvT. PvZ is a bit trickier and what's really key is actions after the initial push
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Russian Federation20 Posts
PvZ is tricky indeed. As far as I'm using this build it seems to me that it is good to expand after the first push in case if it's failed or didn't kill the Zerg right away. Then it becomes similar to 3 Gate FE. Also, zealot+sentry is better if there is no roaches. So, my first wave consists of stalkers as they are faster to move across the map and not that bad until serious number of speedlings come out, then I add zealots and sentries.
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Tried this out a bunch of times vs T.
Interesting things to note:
You can actually do significant damage vs 3rax openers; this tends to hit RIGHT before they get a critical mass of marauders, and 5 stalkers easily beats 2 marauders+ 1 marine, as long as you focus down the marauders first.
It will have a LOT of difficulty against a 2 rax opener that decides to go on the offensive, but you can usually pull back and pick off a few marines if they continue to engage.
Does NOT work against players that manage to get a bunker up before the 5 minute mark, and have enough forces behind the bunker to shoot as well (4 marines in 1 bunker won't be enough to hold back 5+ stalkers before the bunker falls and the marines die. A marauder and 2 marines, or 2 marauders in a bunker will hold this without an issue.
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On November 16 2010 02:37 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 02:15 Perscienter wrote:Cheese. Will fail against - speedlings
- marauders
- bunkers on a choke
- units and one spine crawler on a choke
- etc.
Speedlings come out way later. You'll have plenty of time to snipe of overlords, queens and force him to pump lings instead of drones. 2 fast stalkers are a great tactic against Zergs, 5 I'm not sure about, but you still have a timing window.
This doesn't make sense. If I'm going slings over roaches, I'll 13 pool, pool starts at 2:10 ish, finishes 3:10, and you should have the 100 gas to immediately research, putting sling upgrade at just over 5 minutes. If you include the base walk time, it's going to be unpleasant fighting anything more than
6-8 lings.
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Hey guys, 1900 diamond on EU server here,
I've been testing the builds presented in this thread and managed to draw some conclusions that I want to share with you.
1. The 4gw build presented by shingbi is in my opinion far more powerful than the 2gw build and I will explain why.
Although in theory the 4gw build is slower than the 2gw one, in practice things are different. Since this is an aggressive build and not a defensive one, in practice what is important is the time it takes you to assembly the majority of your army at the door of the opponent and not the time it takes you to produce your army. With the 2 gw build you have to wait for the 2 of the 5 stalkers army (40% of your army) that you built from your gateways (before you had the warp gates) to get to the other side of the map. In the 4 gw build case you only have to wait for 1 stalker out of the 5 stalkers and 1 zealot army (16% of your army) to get to the door of your opponent.
So, in reality, you will be able to commence fighting with a 5 units army at about the same time in both cases. On large 4 players maps it might be that the 4gw is even faster, especially if you are in cross position.
On top of that the 4gw build gets you 18 workers instead of 17 and a greater producing infrastructure. In reality, having a greater producing infrastructure is very helpful even if your economy cannot sustain it fully as it accounts for the human error of not making units at the very precise moment your gws colldowns are over. This is a build where you have to constantly micro your ass out against workers, zealots, speedlings and so on. It is only human that you miss the perfect moment of warping in more units. With the 4gw build this is not such a big deal but with the 2 gw build it is a very big deal as you can only produce 2 units at a time and once you stopped applying enough pressure with a rush build your may start looking for the "g" key on your keyboard and press it twice. Coming back in the game after failing one of these rushes is only possible if you managed to do significant economy/infrastructure damage to compensate for your low economy.
2. Both the 2gw and 4gw build work great vs Protoss. I've been trying it against coreean 4 gw, fast immortal, fast sentry and standard 4 gw. At my level the current PvP metagame involves a lot of Robo builds will fall prey to these rushes.
Against the coreen 4gw you must spot it coming. Use your first stalker to scout your base. If you don't manage to deny the proxy pylons then warp your stalkers in your base and defend while not losing too many probes. Once you cleared your base go immediately for the kill before they can forge up or anything like that. They will also have a low economy.
Against fast immortal focus down the immortal asap. Against sentry defence, if he splits you army on the ramp just keep your entire army near the ff so you can hit up with all your stalkers. Do not retreat the units in the back as you will lose your early fire power advantage.
Here are a couple of replays using the 2gw build vs toss:
1800 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106773-1v1-protoss-delta-quadrant
1200 Diamond opponent (he was proly on a long wining streak since he got to play with me)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106772-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war
3. The 4gw rush works great vs zerg but I cannot say the same about the 2gw with which I failed majority of the times. In the case of zerg, the hardest step for me is to secure the proxy pylon as it is easy for them to spot it with overlords.
Try to kill as many zerglings as possible before they get speed upgrade to prevent them from later surrounding you. If they keep their zerglings away then go for overlords and supply block them don't get greedy on their expo hatchery. Even if you manage to kill the expo if they accumulate enough speedlings you will lose anyway.
Here are a couple of replays using the 4 gw build:
1900 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106774-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
1500 Diamond opponent
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106776-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
I haven't encounter a 7roach all-in build yet to see how it works against that.
4. Against terran I gave up using these builds. It seems to fail against terrans who go concussive shells first. They will be able to bring some scvs to draw fire and snipe your stalkers one at a time.
5. How to defend against these stalker rushes?
As terran, abort any tech builds and get marauders with concussive. Try to setup a bunker in a position where toss can't easily go around.
As zerg, try to acumulate zerglings till speed upgrade is finished. Do not engage protoss without speed upgrade nor try to scare him away with your slowlings unless you caught the protoss in a corner or somewhere where he can't micro the stalkers.
As toss, besides mirror build try getting multiple forcefields while waiting for your bigger economy to kick in but that takes a lot of skill.
For all races, denying the proxy pylon on the 4gw build will have a very big impact especially on large maps which is why, when using these builds don't get greedy and setup the proxy pylon in his face. Better build it a little bit further from his base where he can't scout it, and avoid building it in the rage of xel'naga towers. You can later build a second pylon in the opponent's base while applying pressure.
6. How to spot these builds?
The best indicator I can think of is the continuous cronoboost animation on the core. Whenever you see a toss cronoboosting his core several times it means he is up for some early aggression otherwise there's no point in spending macro energy on the warp technology.
Also the early GW is a good indicator.
Feedback would be appreciated!
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So has anyone who did this won against a 2gate?
If you go with this build: + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
9 Gateway
10 Probe*
12 Assimilator > +3
13 Cybernetics Core
16 Gateway
16 WarpGate****
17 Pylon
17 Gateway
17 Stalker
19 Stalker
22 Pylon
24 Transform to Warpgate[2]
24 Stalker[3]
Then he will have a zealot in your base before your stalker completes, with more on the way.
He will ignore your stalker and start attacking your probes.
I've tried running away with probes whilst making more stalkers, but that didn't work, it takes too long for a stalker to kill a zealot and I lost too much mining time.
Perhaps blocking the ramp with an extra pylon helps? or simply switching the build when you scout 2gate and chrone a zealot and stalker out first?
The map we tried it on was Steppes of War btw.
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I would not go for a zealot as you suggested because that zealot will most certainly die without doing any actual damage to the opponent. Maybe you will manage to kill his first zealot if he is stupid enough not to wait for his second zealot. I would just try to speed up my first stalker by cronoboosting it.
If you are in close positions I would suggest walling in just as you do against a zerg and use a pylon to temporarily shut the door and buy some time for the stalker to get out. Normally it is not smart to wall against a toss but in this case you want to be the aggressor so the layout of your base is not that important as you want to take the fight to his base not yours.
I honestly believe that if he opens 2gw zealots and you manage to delay him without taking any damage (loosing a pylon isn't such a big drama, unless it is the only thing powering all your GWs in which case you don't deserve to win anyway) then, when your build kicks in, he will have no way of repelling your attack.
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I have just encountered a protoss player who defended very nicely against my 4gw stalker rush. We were both at around 2k in diamond league. Considering that I scouted, my timing was impeccable, I had a 5stalker+1zealot army at his door at 5:35. He went 3gw+robo and delayed me with forcefields until he gather a big enough army to confront me. At some point he intentionally let me get into his base and split my army with ff on ramp.
The only thing I can think of that could have helped me win with the rush is having built my second proxy pylon closer to his base so I can warp in units directly in his base as soon as I got up a bit. Also I am now considering not bringing the zealots first on ramp vs toss because if my army gets split my zealots die without doing any damage whereas stalkers I can keep on ramp while shooting his zealots. If he brings his zealots to attack my stalkers in front then at least my stalkers in the back will be able to do some damage.
Here you have the replay, I suggest only watching it till minute 9:00, the rest is not relevant:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107998-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
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I've tried this against my terran friend a couple of days ago.
Not as good as you think it is, especially if they go marauder heavy with conc shells. I wasn't able to kite, micro or anything, just continue pounding his marauders while they slowly whittled away at my stalkers.
I was thinking of sniping tech labs or scvs but he went barracks heavy so there were way too many marauders to keep up. I did scout, but by the time I saw the multiple barracks I was already committed to the rush.
Not to say the build is bad. 5 stalkers at 5 minutes is quite substantial, and I could see it doing a lot of damage to zergs go roaches and such. Just keep in mind there are builds that can counter this.
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On November 23 2010 05:36 OfficerTJHooker wrote:
I've tried this against my terran friend a couple of days ago.
Not as good as you think it is, especially if they go marauder heavy with conc shells. I wasn't able to kite, micro or anything, just continue pounding his marauders while they slowly whittled away at my stalkers.
I was thinking of sniping tech labs or scvs but he went barracks heavy so there were way too many marauders to keep up. I did scout, but by the time I saw the multiple barracks I was already committed to the rush.
Not to say the build is bad. 5 stalkers at 5 minutes is quite substantial, and I could see it doing a lot of damage to zergs go roaches and such. Just keep in mind there are builds that can counter this.
I had the same problem against Terran so I don't use any such builds in PvT anymore. It is way too risky.
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The 7 roach rush has been a key to my ascension from Bronze to Silver to Gold in only two days. The version of it in this video is about 15 seconds later than I can manage with my gold level skills. 15 seconds would have made all the difference as the pylon would have been taken out. This Zerg player missed the 10 extractor trick and a few other details in the optimal 7 RR build. It is still close though and shows that the 5 stalker rush will work well against many players. If I can get my 2v2 partner to learn it. We'd easily rise through the ladder.
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Wow thanks so much. I did a variation of this on 2v2 with stalkers + speedlings/ 7 roaches on 2v2. We went 23-7 with it. Good stuff.
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On November 23 2010 10:06 Lessdeth wrote:
The 7 roach rush has been a key to my ascension from Bronze to Silver to Gold in only two days. The version of it in this video is about 15 seconds later than I can manage with my gold level skills. 15 seconds would have made all the difference as the pylon would have been taken out. This Zerg player missed the 10 extractor trick and a few other details in the optimal 7 RR build. It is still close though and shows that the 5 stalker rush will work well against many players. If I can get my 2v2 partner to learn it. We'd easily rise through the ladder.
Do you mind posting a replay with your best 7rr timing? I am very curious to see it and compare it with my 4gw timings.
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I like this build, and often transition to DTs and either immortals or carriers, depending on how bad the initial stuff cripples my opponent. I find the terrans I play (I am the suck, in the suck league) usually don't go detection when faced with this opener, which makes DTs a good transition after my second base has some production going.
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On November 15 2010 10:14 McMonty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:04 creamwolf wrote:
I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-. I call BS. No way that one of your 1700-1900 level opponents opened 3 supply depots.
I open with 3 supply depots when I'm 3 rax proxying against Toss or against Terran, because TvT is god awful and its like playing chess in the dark. One WRONG MOVE, and bam your dead because viking/tanks out of position is so painful...
Oh and I'm a 1700-1900 terran :D
But on the other note, this stalker push is unbelievably effective, even with a bunker and units inside. they either pick off all my workers, or just kill me outright. But now that I know the exact build, it may be easier to counter it.
However, correct me if I'm wrong, but if i was a Toss/Zerg player, 2-3 well placed cannons/spine crawlers and some units could hold this off and allow you to push ahead economically and crush your opponent later?
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Russian Federation20 Posts
On November 24 2010 02:15 JasonX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 10:14 McMonty wrote:On November 15 2010 10:04 creamwolf wrote:
I tried this to some variation ( 1500 diamond, but i play vs 1700-1900 ), i lost too all but 1 really really really really nooby terran that built 3 supply depots at the beginning -_-. I call BS. No way that one of your 1700-1900 level opponents opened 3 supply depots. I open with 3 supply depots when I'm 3 rax proxying against Toss or against Terran, because TvT is god awful and its like playing chess in the dark. One WRONG MOVE, and bam your dead because viking/tanks out of position is so painful... Oh and I'm a 1700-1900 terran :D But on the other note, this stalker push is unbelievably effective, even with a bunker and units inside. they either pick off all my workers, or just kill me outright. But now that I know the exact build, it may be easier to counter it. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but 2-3 well placed cannons and some units could hold this off and allow you to push ahead economically and crush your opponent later?
3 cannons cost more than 1 nexus, so if I see it I just expand.
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I have just failed with the 4gw stalker rush vs a 2050 diamond zerg with a 14 drones economy.
I know I should have aborted my build when I saw no expansion but I am showing this replay to you to see how powerful a zerg can be nowadays while sitting on one base and only making speedlings and roaches.
My 18 probes/1 asimilator/4 gw were not enough against his 14 drones/1 extractor/1 hatch on a map such as blistering sands. You draw the conclusions.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108307-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
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EPT
