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On October 17 2010 22:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:20 Cloak wrote:On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out. Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech. No, then we will simply not see any terrans win TvP. Mech currently does not work. Its just not realistic to try to play a 30 minute game EVERY time, especially as its not even a guaranteed win (mech has some serious issues with mass speed void rays - at least pre-patch - as well as carriers). I used to always mech before going to Korea, but I just dont think it works anymore, tho Im gonna check out those Goody replays and see if hes doing anything different enough for me to change my mind.
You're right. Massive nerfs like that would only limit strategy diversity. Shutting down options is not the answer. I believe it's a combination of MMM being too flexible and Mech being too inflexible as for why there's only one choice right now for TvP.
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On October 17 2010 22:13 ChickenLips wrote:
Seeing threads like this makes me understand why
a) not a single pro regularly posts on this forum.
b) we can't have nice things (good players discussing interesting topics in an objective manner)
instead it's just this constant slew of balance bullshit. bah
Next thread: [Q] Will we see something other than Zealot Stalker Sentry?
I don't want to talk about balance but I really want to see Sentries nerfed so Protosses use more of their arsenal.
Jesus christ.
agreed, the main problem is most forum posters now simply have a surface level understanding of the game and they simply refer to damage tables and statistics when thinking about he game and strategy instead of really contemplating something. 15minutes before each post would do wonders for the community.
Back on topic: If you don't go MMM you should be happy that others do. Yes most T go MMM but since your playing at a lower level of competition where P blindly prep for MMM instead of scouting and reacting your strategy should be more effective. Ever consider that? See how something you didn't like actually benefits you?
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On October 17 2010 22:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:20 Cloak wrote:On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out. Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech. No, then we will simply not see any terrans win TvP. Mech currently does not work. Its just not realistic to try to play a 30 minute game EVERY time, especially as its not even a guaranteed win (mech has some serious issues with mass speed void rays - at least pre-patch - as well as carriers). I used to always mech before going to Korea, but I just dont think it works anymore, tho Im gonna check out those Goody replays and see if hes doing anything different enough for me to change my mind.
I was about to mention Goody. Im just blown away, how well he uses mech play vs. Protoss. Of course he faces a lot of weaker opponents. But there are several good replays when he mechs against very good Protoss players like Kiwikaki, etc.. The last patch made Void Ray a bit weaker and I can think of Thor as an option now. Does actually anyone know, how Thors stand against carriers with +1/+2 upgrades? I mean, surely you need Vikings..
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Mech in BW was kind of OP haha, you only ever went Bio against zerg, and recently terrans have been trying to open mech or switch to mech against zerg too as often as possible. Mech was always supposed to just offer you a few options for supporting your bio.
The roles of hellions and tanks seem clear but I'm not sure what role Thors are supposed to fill. Hellions take care of lings and zealots really well--basically they are firebats but slightly less useless against the things they don't hard counter and fast enough to be used as harass. Ok, good unit. Tanks are what they were always supposed to be--a really good defensive unit, and a unit that can safely apply pressure and gradually gain map control with its range and damage, but can be countered by air and some other specialist units, and need support against melee units.
What are thors supposed to be really good against? They can shoot air, but are not that good against air so they can't take the goliath's job of AA. The ground units they are strong against, tanks are strong against too, and the units they suck against, tanks suck against too. So what's the point of making thors? Seems like vikings and tanks fill their roles much better than they do, especially at that price point and supply cost.
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I think there's a lot of untapped potential in T tech, it's just been so easy to go MMM that none of that potential is rarely experimented with. Terran units are all ranged, by this very nature alone they synergise fantastically well with each other in any ball composition. I predict the future of TvX will involve transitioning to a split rax/starport play where terrans make a group of banshee for scouting/harassment/expansion denial and as a good reinforcement to their main army (banshees are remarkably good in a straight-up fight, think broodlords minus the broodlings) and some ravens which are a fantastic support unit. You might even eventually see mixing in some BC becoming standard. Yes, the core of a T army will probably always consist of MM but there is so much potential that is never tapped because often T players just stick with what CAN work, (MM), and when it doesn't work, they blame the weakness of late tech when the truth is they're not forced to experiment nearly as much as P or Z have due to the versatility of the T1 MM mix compared to ling/roach or zealot/stalker/sentry.
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sjow has some weird thor/tank mech tvp build (just saw him crushing one guy on stream but it was stepps of war and early stage of the cup- the toss was quiet good tho), he also won with pure mech build with dimaga in recent craft cup so maybe we will see something new.
On October 17 2010 22:40 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 18:14 ReachTheSky wrote:
I'm pretty sure its all that we see because its the ONLY VIABLE THING RIGHT NOW. banshee is not a viable unit?
phoenix shuts it down pretty hard
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On October 17 2010 18:14 ReachTheSky wrote:
I'm pretty sure its all that we see because its the ONLY VIABLE THING RIGHT NOW.
banshee is not a viable unit?
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I'll rephrase what I'm saying from another perspective: MM can be made to work, through superior micro and army positioning, against nearly every army composition you can imagine. Roach ling is horrible against many army compositions, and zealot/stalker/sentry sits somewhere in the middle in terms of versatility. This is why you see a lot of terrans still stuck in the MM mindset, while P and Z have moved on to bigger and better things.
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if u nerf marauders T will be the next zerg since mmm are the staple unit which would expect to be made everygame just like how u expect stalkers an roaches to be made almost everygame
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:35 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On October 17 2010 22:20 Cloak wrote:On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out. Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech. No, then we will simply not see any terrans win TvP. Mech currently does not work. Its just not realistic to try to play a 30 minute game EVERY time, especially as its not even a guaranteed win (mech has some serious issues with mass speed void rays - at least pre-patch - as well as carriers). I used to always mech before going to Korea, but I just dont think it works anymore, tho Im gonna check out those Goody replays and see if hes doing anything different enough for me to change my mind. I was about to mention Goody. Im just blown away, how well he uses mech play vs. Protoss. Of course he faces a lot of weaker opponents. But there are several good replays when he mechs against very good Protoss players like Kiwikaki, etc.. The last patch made Void Ray a bit weaker and I can think of Thor as an option now. Does actually anyone know, how Thors stand against carriers with +1/+2 upgrades? I mean, surely you need Vikings..
Thors are indescribably terrible vs carriers when the eco is kinda equal  At least now they cant be feedback raped I guess.
I watched most of the reps, and well, I think most of my points still stand... Hard to fight void rays, you cant end games in under 25 minutes (which is bad when you have to play qualifiers and such, you are gonna be exhausted - I know I always felt pretty tired after 5 rounds of meching compared to 5 rounds of much shorter M&M games).
I think the strat is gonna get weaker when Ps learn how to play vs it too --- but if the P just goes his regular anti-m/m, ie templars, hes gonna get rolled since templars are kinda terrible vs mech (until you have carriers).
I dunno, its not good to be forced into such insane passivity 
I did like that Goody incorporated marauder drops into it tho, its hard to kill expos otherwise.
On October 17 2010 22:36 Hautamaki wrote:
Mech in BW was kind of OP haha, you only ever went Bio against zerg, and recently terrans have been trying to open mech or switch to mech against zerg too as often as possible. Mech was always supposed to just offer you a few options for supporting your bio.
The roles of hellions and tanks seem clear but I'm not sure what role Thors are supposed to fill. Hellions take care of lings and zealots really well--basically they are firebats but slightly less useless against the things they don't hard counter and fast enough to be used as harass. Ok, good unit. Tanks are what they were always supposed to be--a really good defensive unit, and a unit that can safely apply pressure and gradually gain map control with its range and damage, but can be countered by air and some other specialist units, and need support against melee units.
What are thors supposed to be really good against? They can shoot air, but are not that good against air so they can't take the goliath's job of AA. The ground units they are strong against, tanks are strong against too, and the units they suck against, tanks suck against too. So what's the point of making thors? Seems like vikings and tanks fill their roles much better than they do, especially at that price point and supply cost.
Thors are the best choice vs ultras, and with 3-3 upgs, they will do fine vs broodlords as long as you have repairing scvs and hellions to kill the broodlings.
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does the viking out-kite a speed-upgraded VR after this patch?
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On October 17 2010 22:35 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:13 ChickenLips wrote:
Seeing threads like this makes me understand why
a) not a single pro regularly posts on this forum.
b) we can't have nice things (good players discussing interesting topics in an objective manner)
instead it's just this constant slew of balance bullshit. bah
Next thread: [Q] Will we see something other than Zealot Stalker Sentry?
I don't want to talk about balance but I really want to see Sentries nerfed so Protosses use more of their arsenal.
Jesus christ. agreed, the main problem is most forum posters now simply have a surface level understanding of the game and they simply refer to damage tables and statistics when thinking about he game and strategy instead of really contemplating something. 15minutes before each post would do wonders for the community. Back on topic: If you don't go MMM you should be happy that others do. Yes most T go MMM but since your playing at a lower level of competition where P blindly prep for MMM instead of scouting and reacting your strategy should be more effective. Ever consider that? See how something you didn't like actually benefits you?
Im sorry to make you feel like this post is "constant slew of balance bullshit. bah". I rarely post at tl.net. I can see that this isnt as interesting for you as some thread where proffesional players would shere their thoughts. But this isnt real. I try to manage this thread as well as I can not to become another "balance whine". So even if I manage to attract several good players (Jinro), Im not an admin that could manage this thread to your (and my) liking.
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On October 17 2010 22:39 Withdraw wrote:sjow has some weird thor/tank mech tvp build (just saw him crushing one guy on stream but it was stepps of war and early stage of the cup- the toss was quiet good tho), he also won with pure mech build with dimaga in recent craft cup so maybe we will see something new. Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:40 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 17 2010 18:14 ReachTheSky wrote:
I'm pretty sure its all that we see because its the ONLY VIABLE THING RIGHT NOW. banshee is not a viable unit? phoenix shuts it down pretty hard
Good to hear something useful from you.  I also saw that match where Sjow demolished pretty good Protoss with pure mech play. Anyone has replay?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:44 J-C-erloeser wrote:
does the viking out-kite a speed-upgraded VR after this patch?
I tested it and.... yes.
Wow o_o That DOES make mech a lot stronger now.
Im not sure mech is ever going to be good on metalopolis, but on steppes, it should be.
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There you go.. I didnt know that its possible to kite VRs (with speed) with Vikings post-patch. At least something useful accomplished.
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well, when playing MMM and getting medivac and raven u could just switch into air:
2:1:3 build-order
raven banchee viking (so if u dont have to get marines to defend VR)
what about the phoenix? can be killed by few marines in the mix, right?
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It's true that mech just doesn't work vs. protoss, so MM is the only viable way to go. But I feel it's a big problem in sc2. I personally hate PVT match up, because MM is so boring to play against. And more importantly, it's even more boring to watch.
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On October 17 2010 22:20 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out. Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech.
The Void Ray isn't a core unit.
7 range to 6 was not nerfed to oblivion.
Most recent patch changes the unit's role.
It was insane for Void Rays to outrange marines in bunkers.
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On October 17 2010 22:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 21:30 ichangedmyname wrote:I think most Terrans are just really lazy to be honest. If they can't cheese a win or timing push to a win in the first 8~ minutes then they just keep massing what they already have. I think the late game solution for Terran is primarily ghost/m&m ground armies backed by lots of Starport units (banshees RAPE ground units, vikings can protect them from phoenix, medivacs for stim spam, and ravens can protect everything from stalkers). + Show Spoiler +Making T1 units all game long as Protoss researches multiple techs off multiple tech buildings and diversifies their army will eventually result in a loss. If you let him get Twilight Council/Charge/Blink/Templar Archives/Psi Storm/and Amulet, as well as Robo/Robo Bay/Range, as well as holding off all early aggression. Yup, you might lose. Sounds good in theory, but storm rapes every single unit in this composition.
Isn't that what the Ghosts are for? I'm pretty sure that composition will roll anything if the Ghosts get their EMPs off.
At that point it becomes a thing of who has better micro. I also think that composition allows stealth to be abused, as ravens + vikings will insta sniper observers allowing banshees to go uncontested.
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MMM is stronger of an opening in TvP, especially if you want to be aggressive. But if you open with MMM it's hard to transition to full mech. A lot of people don't add tanks later because they feel the gas can be better used for other things like medivacs and ghosts.
Until people find a good way to transition or open mech in TvP, MMM will be the dominant strat.
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EPT
