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Realistically thinking about Terran, I think Stim will get nerfed in the future.
Bio is just too strong with stim. Look at Bio without stim to any army (that doesn't bring massive amounts of area damage) and they will barely lose most fights. Then slap stim down and they will completely obliterate the opposition. Zerg, Protoss, Terran doesn't matter. Stim is too much.
On the other side, Siege Tanks need to get +10 armor back on their siege mode and Terran players need to start using non-sieged Sieged Tanks, everybody treats them like BW, but they do 25dps vs armored and 15 vs non-armored. They're basically Immortals that have the option of sieging up.
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i usually go zealot templar which is kinda the same thing. the only race that doesnt have to do this is zerg since thier production facility makes all types of units. if i need to build a rax/gate to get tank/templar why wouldnt i use it. for example i get a mothership sometimes if i have the bases for it and i build outta the stargate just because i have it. i will agree that MMM is fucking old. every game. . . .which is why i quit laddering 1s around the first patch. MMM is not that micro intensive so people think is noobish, but thor rush mass repair is even more noobish with less micro and higher win % especially without mana.
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I think most Terrans are just really lazy to be honest. If they can't cheese a win or timing push to a win in the first 8~ minutes then they just keep massing what they already have.
I think the late game solution for Terran is primarily ghost/m&m ground armies backed by lots of Starport units (banshees RAPE ground units, vikings can protect them from phoenix, medivacs for stim spam, and ravens can protect everything from stalkers).
+ Show Spoiler +Making T1 units all game long as Protoss researches multiple techs off multiple tech buildings and diversifies their army will eventually result in a loss. If you let him get Twilight Council/Charge/Blink/Templar Archives/Psi Storm/and Amulet, as well as Robo/Robo Bay/Range, as well as holding off all early aggression. Yup, you might lose.
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Why don'¨t people go mass banshees with ravens? Point defense drone is good protection against stalkers and the DPS is just insane when you have massed up 5-10 banshees. In addition, the very first banshees may be used for the normal harass. Add a bunch of marines as support and micro well and the P has to really really play well to win.
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i see bunch of theorycrafting noobs in this topic
User was banned for this post.
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On October 17 2010 21:31 borny wrote:
Why don'¨t people go mass banshees with ravens?
Templar, Phoenix, 4 gate.
3/1/2 is unique in that it exploits a timing window, where Protoss is obligated to get Robo tech for detection, but can't yet afford a Stargate/Templar tech.
If the Protoss survives that build's first big push (Force the PDD), he's in great shape to take the game.
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On October 17 2010 21:41 Withdraw wrote:
i see bunch of theorycrafting noobs in this topic
Have you fulfilled yourself with such a comment? Please do me a favor, withdraw yourself from this thread. Thank you very much.
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On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build.
Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran.
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On October 17 2010 21:41 Withdraw wrote:
i see bunch of theorycrafting noobs in this topic
Since I dont think, that an accomplished, skilled player would waste his time posting such garbage, what can I say? Welcome to the club mr. flamer...
Edit: TL-Forums need an "report inappropriate post" button.
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On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran.
Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf.
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borny:
a basic problem i encounter with mass banchees is:
if u have a lot of banchees and raven (which come later compared to stalker) you can expect the toss to have even more stalker. and if he has blink - can blink under the point defence drone and the energy of it will be trained in no time.
or blink away if the battle is not forced to happen at this location.
if he sees it coming he can get some VR to kill 50 HP point defence drone.
maybe some vikings to kill his observer?
i tried to play mass banchees with tanks and missleturrets.
it will demolish any ground army but i am not really good at macroing enough rines to defend air outside my turrets...
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On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf.
Was a joke, chill d f out.
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Seeing threads like this makes me understand why
a) not a single pro regularly posts on this forum.
b) we can't have nice things (good players discussing interesting topics in an objective manner)
instead it's just this constant slew of balance bullshit. bah
Next thread: [Q] Will we see something other than Zealot Stalker Sentry?
I don't want to talk about balance but I really want to see Sentries Force Field nerfed so Protosses use more of their arsenal.
Jesus christ.
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wonder why Protoss mostly mostly go one tech??
Questions to a terran player:
How mush do you believe the robotic bay cost?
How mush do you believe the range upgrade for the colossus cost?
How mush do you believe the Templar archive cost?
How mush do you believe the storm upgrade cost?
How long time do you think it takes to tech to ht with storms after getting a robo facillity for observers(else you die from cloaked banshee)?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 17 2010 18:16 hot_waffles wrote:
Will we see something other than zealot sentry stalker? What about roach ling?
MMM are the core units just like how Toss and Zerg have those core units. Yes, it does seem like Terran only make MMM but did you watch any of the games at MLG, select opens with a reaper and uses it throughout the game as harass. But it was nerfed!! How can someone use a unit thats been nerfed!?!?!
That is why Starcraft and people who play Starcraft are amazing: They adapt to what is available to them. Even though terrans use MMM as their main army, it won't be long till it changes because Toss and Zerg figure out ways to stop it. In my opinion it has already happened. Toss can use key forcefields and zerg just got the roach buff.
It's still a young game, nothing is "standard"
Hes using 1 reaper to scout, the nerf did nothing to the reaper in that regard.
On October 17 2010 18:20 UisTehSux wrote:It's just a very common style and I'm sure will be the 'standard' for TvP. Just like in BW there were standard compositions to use in the different matchups. I've seen players use tanks and hellions with there marine and maruarders. I think it's just the fact that people have realized the MMM is good and are using it. And also, Show nested quote +
Im not complaining about balance. I would like to see marauder nerfed for example to force Terrans use more of their arsenal.
You contradicted yourself with just one sentence, lol.
No he didnt, hes making it clear that he doesnt think terran is too weak, hed just like their strengths to be spread out over more units.
Anyhow; you cant make anything else because everything else sucks vs P. Vs T and Z its obviously not a problem, lots of units that work there (basically every unit), but vs P... Tanks are so rarely worth it, they dont even do that well vs colossi, and they suddenly turn you from the mobile player to the immobile one - that is not good, you dont have warp-in to counter-act the lack of speed.
Thors suck terribly vs almost every protoss tech unit.
On October 17 2010 21:30 ichangedmyname wrote:I think most Terrans are just really lazy to be honest. If they can't cheese a win or timing push to a win in the first 8~ minutes then they just keep massing what they already have. I think the late game solution for Terran is primarily ghost/m&m ground armies backed by lots of Starport units (banshees RAPE ground units, vikings can protect them from phoenix, medivacs for stim spam, and ravens can protect everything from stalkers). + Show Spoiler +Making T1 units all game long as Protoss researches multiple techs off multiple tech buildings and diversifies their army will eventually result in a loss. If you let him get Twilight Council/Charge/Blink/Templar Archives/Psi Storm/and Amulet, as well as Robo/Robo Bay/Range, as well as holding off all early aggression. Yup, you might lose.
Sounds good in theory, but storm rapes every single unit in this composition.
On October 17 2010 21:49 Damaskinos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 21:41 Withdraw wrote:
i see bunch of theorycrafting noobs in this topic Since I dont think, that an accomplished, skilled player would waste his time posting such garbage, what can I say? Welcome to the club mr. flamer... Edit: TL-Forums need an "report inappropriate post" button.
There is one, but its not available until youve been a member for a certain period of time (unsure how long exactly).
On October 17 2010 21:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
Realistically thinking about Terran, I think Stim will get nerfed in the future.
Bio is just too strong with stim. Look at Bio without stim to any army (that doesn't bring massive amounts of area damage) and they will barely lose most fights. Then slap stim down and they will completely obliterate the opposition. Zerg, Protoss, Terran doesn't matter. Stim is too much.
On the other side, Siege Tanks need to get +10 armor back on their siege mode and Terran players need to start using non-sieged Sieged Tanks, everybody treats them like BW, but they do 25dps vs armored and 15 vs non-armored. They're basically Immortals that have the option of sieging up.
Stimmed bio vs any non-splash army in SC1 means the stimmed bio wins too.... Thats just how it is.
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To be honest, I think Terran Barracks units are just like Protoss gateway units, perhaps stronger than their alien counterparts but still, protoss can win games with gateway units only as Terran can win with barracks units only.
Perhaps Terran tends to make more barracks units than anything else, but I can't see anything else they can make.
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On October 17 2010 21:49 Damaskinos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 21:41 Withdraw wrote:
i see bunch of theorycrafting noobs in this topic Since I dont think, that an accomplished, skilled player would waste his time posting such garbage, what can I say? Welcome to the club mr. flamer... Edit: TL-Forums need an "report inappropriate post" button.
They do have a report button, but you have to be a member for a year. Reported him.
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On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out.
Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech.
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I go Hellion Tank. With Fast upgrades. Off of 2 bases you can produce out of 3 Tech Factories making Tanks and a Reactor Hellion Production.
Don't Worry so much about immortals just focus Them down first. Unless he's going VERY heavy on the Immortals just get 1/2 ghost Tops.
If you see collosi/Voids make a handful of vikings. Don't over do it.
Spread out your Tanks or you will die to Chargelots and Blink.
If you see HEAVY stargate mass Thor Viking Hellion. Hellion is so you don't die to mass zealots. Since Stargate is gas heavy he will have alot of minerals
Note:Thor with upgrades are pretty decent against Voids and Carrier. Remember to bring a few SCVs to repair. Air upgrades aren't That necessary, double mech upgrades are the focus. If you some how can afford it then go for it, but vikings are pretty damn good without upgrades so you decide.
For more info on pushes refer to this site. Even though its from BW. The ideas are the same when it comes to pushing and expanding during the mid game in comparison to the protoss.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Flash_Build
HOW TO OPEN:
14cc->Marines bunker and repair. Don't be afraid to lose some SCVs if his push fails your ahead with 2 expos and can rebuild very quickly
1 Rax FE->Same as above. Slower expo but safer
2 Factory timing push with Tank non reactor hellion and marines into expo. This MUST do DMG. Siege is very important here. This can be done off of one gas for a faster push. Or 2 gas for siege. I prefer 2 gas.
1/1/1-> Safest opener but also the slowest in grabbing an expo. MUST GET SIEGE. And have constant marine production to stop the push. Get a viking to scout. You can do a 1/1/1 timing push or just turtle to a second this varies. Harass is recommended, but don't over commit to things like cloak. Pre igniter is fine since you will need it later, but it takes gas which could be another Tank or factory. Reactor hellion drop is fine. Tank drops were appropriate.
Note 2: Only the 2 factory and 1/1/1 are safe on any map even open naturals. 2 factory is actually better on open naturals because you can easily contain Protoss to 1 base. The other openings are limited to maps like lost and Jungle Basin and Blistering Sands. Basically any map with a defendable choke at your natural
WHY MECH ISN"T SO POPULAR and other Notes: Its harder to do then MMM, but reaps in IMO better results especially in the L8 game. Also you have to be smart like getting Turret Range is oh so important and spamming turrets with your extra minerals, bunkers to block paths or to create obstacles, and offensive turrets. Mules aren't important after early game since this is a gas heavy build. Spend it on Scans since position and timing is very important
Here some replays They aren't mine but GoOdy is a good player and check out his opponents
http://www.mediafire.com/?bbc99oe6yaosbqf
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:20 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 22:12 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 21:59 ichangedmyname wrote:On October 17 2010 21:49 Cephei wrote:On October 17 2010 18:25 AngryPanda wrote:
I don't play Toss to much but all i can say is just build HT's and start lol at the mmm ball. just go HT's and stalkers. Feedback the medic's and storm there ball they will lose half there army to 3-4 good storms. I never lose to terran as toss anymore with any kind of HT build. Kinda sounds like toss needs a nerf if you never lose to terran. Yes. One kid beating up on terrible Terrans in some shit division means Toss needs a nerf. Was a joke, chill d f out. Shit like that got the Void Ray nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps MMM should get the Void Ray treatment and then we'll see more Mech.
No, then we will simply not see any terrans win TvP. Mech currently does not work. Its just not realistic to try to play a 30 minute game EVERY time, especially as its not even a guaranteed win (mech has some serious issues with mass speed void rays - at least pre-patch - as well as carriers).
I used to always mech before going to Korea, but I just dont think it works anymore, tho Im gonna check out those Goody replays and see if hes doing anything different enough for me to change my mind.
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EPT
