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On October 18 2010 06:06 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 06:02 Snowfield wrote:
Like what lol, it's always stalker sentry zealot + X unit, Colossi, HT, DT, phoenix etc
terran have alot more varied strats then protoss does Oh really? How many games from Terran perspective did you see in MGL other than MMM? And how many games from Protoss perspective did you see in MGF that included Collosi, HT, DT, Void Rays, Phoenixes, Immortals, even mother fucking mothership. So if Terran have a lot more varied strats then protoss does, why arent they used?
Because the Terrans in GSL favored MMM over the other strats
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TvP? No, probably not. Mech builds are just not as viable as is BW because of immortals, blink, charge, and the lack of spider-mines. That said, I think there's interesting transitions late game to raven and/or maybe tank support.
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I don't see why people are hating thors so much.
With the recent patch, they're actually viable in TvP now. I'm not saying mass thors will be as good as in TvZ, but honestly the 250mm cannon will demolishs immorts and they're no longer susceptible to HT's.
I don't have a problem with MMM, because its interesting to see what a terran uses to support the bioball (medivac vikings, ghosts, or mech)
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On October 18 2010 06:10 Lobotomist wrote:
TvP? No, probably not. Mech builds are just not as viable as is BW because of immortals, blink, charge, and the lack of spider-mines. That said, I think there's interesting transitions late game to raven and/or maybe tank support.
Immortals arent an issue when you have enough STUFF. They have a range of 5. Any early mech push of coarse has marines. And if they spam them stop a cycle of tanks in favor for 2 ghosts.
Blink and Charge are only and issue if you ball up you mech. But if you spread them out and micro you hellions this negates the effectiveness of Blink and Chargelots. Spread them out Like Checkers set up.
Spider-mines were only needed because the vulture couldn't kill multiple zealots at the same time like the hellion can. And Stalkers are weaker then dragoons with their shorter range.
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On October 17 2010 18:14 Nightfall.589 wrote:
You're going to stop seeing MMM in TvP when Immortals stop raping mech as hard as they do now.
EMP hurts severely every single protoss unit. Try that.
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On October 18 2010 06:14 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 06:10 Lobotomist wrote:
TvP? No, probably not. Mech builds are just not as viable as is BW because of immortals, blink, charge, and the lack of spider-mines. That said, I think there's interesting transitions late game to raven and/or maybe tank support. Immortals arent an issue when you have enough STUFF. They have a range of 5. Any early mech push of coarse has marines. And if they spam them stop a cycle of tanks in favor for 2 ghosts. Blink and Charge are only and issue if you ball up you mech. But if you spread them out and micro you hellions this negates the effectiveness of Blink and Chargelots. Spread them out Like Checkers set up. Spider-mines were only needed because the vulture couldn't kill multiple zealots at the same time like the hellion can. And Stalkers are weaker then dragoons with their shorter range.
If you're going for an early Mech push I don't see how you would have a tech labbed Rax and Ghost Academy up? Also having more stuff is a response to an opponent doing cutesy stuff and not having a normal amount of units. When you're going Mech though you'll be the one with less units.
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On October 18 2010 06:08 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 06:06 Everlong wrote:On October 18 2010 06:02 Snowfield wrote:
Like what lol, it's always stalker sentry zealot + X unit, Colossi, HT, DT, phoenix etc
terran have alot more varied strats then protoss does Oh really? How many games from Terran perspective did you see in MGL other than MMM? And how many games from Protoss perspective did you see in MGF that included Collosi, HT, DT, Void Rays, Phoenixes, Immortals, even mother fucking mothership. So if Terran have a lot more varied strats then protoss does, why arent they used? Because the Terrans in GSL favored MMM over the other strats
Ok, so the best terrans that made it to GSL are playing MMM and the rest of the world plays those "other varied strats", is that, what you are saying?
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Different players play different things, just because the two terrans that made it any far did MMM doesn't mean the game hasnt evolved, there are plenty of other strategies that work, MMM is just the simplest imo
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On October 18 2010 06:29 Snowfield wrote:
Different players play different things, just because the two terrans that made it any far did MMM doesn't mean the game hasnt evolved, there are plenty of other strategies that work, MMM is just the simplest imo
You are talking about TWO terrans at MGL? Are you serious? Go, download all replays TvP from MGL and tell me, how many were different from MMM..
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for the last few weeks i've been toying around with mech build against protoss, because i got fed up by bio builds. i've had fairly good succes with mainly tanks, hellions, thors (not so much tho, they take up a lot of supply) and viking support, obv good upgrades and a ghost or two. problem is i haven't found a good midgame push, that means my gameplan is basically a lot of suicide hellions harasses (even with medivacs) and turtling up to 200/200 on 3 base
i usually go rector rax and techlab factory into expand, which i feel is not too safe, as i think it might be too weak against 3gate immortal push, but i feel like when going 1/1/1 with a raven my expo is a bit late and im behind when P actually goes fast exp as well (which they do quite often now)
then i go 4factories total (2tech lab 2reactor) and reactor starport and get 3rd base up while upgrading.
as i said, im not sure what opening is the best yet but what you need is a lot of OC for scans, because you absolutely need to scan air transition from protoss otherwise you're dead, if P goes carriers you should go a lot of vikings, but i've been also thinking going marines for supper to kill the incerteptors, because the vikings are not that good vs carriers. once you hit 200/200 and have usuallu 3/1 upgrades you have to attack obviously, a take a whole map if possible.
also i haven't really had a chance to try that vs the top protosses because i don't have many on my F list, but i'd love to.
i think once you get on 3-4 base with good eco and ugrades the mech is sooo good.
also im no scrub so please no responses in type of "it might work in bronze league"
i might as well post a new thread if i have time with some replays, or if anyone is intersted in helping optimalizing the build order i'd be happy enough to send you some replays
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On October 18 2010 06:35 PredY wrote:
for the last few weeks i've been toying around with mech build against protoss, because i got fed up by bio builds. i've had fairly good succes with mainly tanks, hellions, thors (not so much tho, they take up a lot of supply) and viking support, obv good upgrades and a ghost or two. problem is i haven't found a good midgame push, that means my gameplan is basically a lot of suicide hellions harasses (even with medivacs) and turtling up to 200/200 on 3 base
i usually go rector rax and techlab factory into expand, which i feel is not too safe, as i think it might be too weak against 3gate immortal push, but i feel like when going 1/1/1 with a raven my expo is a bit late and im behind when P actually goes fast exp as well (which they do quite often now)
then i go 4factories total (2tech lab 2reactor) and reactor starport and get 3rd base up while upgrading.
as i said, im not sure what opening is the best yet but what you need is a lot of OC for scans, because you absolutely need to scan air transition from protoss otherwise you're dead, if P goes carriers you should go a lot of vikings, but i've been also thinking going marines for supper to kill the incerteptors, because the vikings are not that good vs carriers. once you hit 200/200 and have usuallu 3/1 upgrades you have to attack obviously, a take a whole map if possible.
also i haven't really had a chance to try that vs the top protosses because i don't have many on my F list, but i'd love to.
i think once you get on 3-4 base with good eco and ugrades the mech is sooo good.
also im no scrub so please no responses in type of "it might work in bronze league"
i might as well post a new thread if i have time with some replays, or if anyone is intersted in helping optimalizing the build order i'd be happy enough to send you some replays
Im very interested in this, since there are not many replays involving mech TvP. So what people claim is, that mech is bad, because its not played. Your overall strategy seems a lot like something Im playing around. I only try to add at least 1 Raven, before I push out of my base, because 1 well placed PDD can buy your tanks enough time to siege if you somehow get caught in uncomfortable position. Upgrades are way more important than it actually looks.
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Marauder+ medivac is one of the best ways to deal with High Templar if you're not great with ghosts. The HT can psistorm your marauder, but the medivac heals them, so nothing dies or gets weakened. Any other unit than Marauder takes damage from psistorm, so if you play cat and mouse with a Protoss with a lot of high templar, your army wears down and dies.
So I always tell the player I'm coaching now: Get marauders+medivac, get ebay upgrades on infantry, and engage their army once you got a reasonable amount. Marauder+medivac vs zealots mean you kite and kill his zealots then you move on into the meat of his army. Any time you're low on health, you run and heal full.
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about this air battle thing.
played some factory/viking and also raven/banchee/viking...
1)
it seems very hard to kite the voidrays, if it is a group battle. still it seems that vikings have the advantage -when it comes to army costs.
2)
the melee group games are increasingly full with ppl playing carriers. so when i was trying mech and encountered carriers i really had trbl to kill the main-carrier-ship like it was the plan in SC1.
tried all raven abilities- no viking kiting: => turret repairing and mass rine helps 
i just can support the statement, that carriers are killing it all (mech).
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On October 18 2010 06:46 GoodNewsJim wrote:
Marauder+ medivac is one of the best ways to deal with High Templar if you're not great with ghosts. The HT can psistorm your marauder, but the medivac heals them, so nothing dies or gets weakened. Any other unit than Marauder takes damage from psistorm, so if you play cat and mouse with a Protoss with a lot of high templar, your army wears down and dies.
So I always tell the player I'm coaching now: Get marauders+medivac, get ebay upgrades on infantry, and engage their army once you got a reasonable amount. Marauder+medivac vs zealots mean you kite and kill his zealots then you move on into the meat of his army. Any time you're low on health, you run and heal full.
Yes, you can kite few Zealots, but all in all you wont kill anything. Running away from opponent wont win you games. This actually gives Protoss enough time to reach those top tier units, which are so effective vs. your T1 units. With mech army, you are guaranteed to kill many, many things.
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lol, kiting zealots kills all the zealots, then you go back and kill the rest, it's running, it's run-and-shoot
With mech you can't kite anything, zealots just legcahrge your siegetanks or stalkers blink on top and then it's like wat
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On October 18 2010 06:52 J-C-erloeser wrote:about this air battle thing. played some factory/viking and also raven/banchee/viking... 1) it seems very hard to kite the voidrays, if it is a group battle. still it seems that vikings have the advantage -when it comes to army costs. 2) the melee group games are increasingly full with ppl playing carriers. so when i was trying mech and encountered carriers i really had trbl to kill the main-carrier-ship like it was the plan in SC1. tried all raven abilities- no viking kiting: => turret repairing and mass rine helps i just can support the statement, that carriers are killing it all (mech).
Ok, but its not just that by the time "Carriers are killing it all" you are left only with Hellion/Tank/Thor.. If Protoss is tech switching to something like carrier, Im pretty sure you can have your fleet of Vikings/Battlecruisers, which also is "killing at all", suprisingly. And with the minerals floating when meching, its not that hard to throw several scans out there.
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On October 18 2010 06:35 PredY wrote:
for the last few weeks i've been toying around with mech build against protoss, because i got fed up by bio builds. i've had fairly good succes with mainly tanks, hellions, thors (not so much tho, they take up a lot of supply) and viking support, obv good upgrades and a ghost or two. problem is i haven't found a good midgame push, that means my gameplan is basically a lot of suicide hellions harasses (even with medivacs) and turtling up to 200/200 on 3 base
i usually go rector rax and techlab factory into expand, which i feel is not too safe, as i think it might be too weak against 3gate immortal push, but i feel like when going 1/1/1 with a raven my expo is a bit late and im behind when P actually goes fast exp as well (which they do quite often now)
then i go 4factories total (2tech lab 2reactor) and reactor starport and get 3rd base up while upgrading.
as i said, im not sure what opening is the best yet but what you need is a lot of OC for scans, because you absolutely need to scan air transition from protoss otherwise you're dead, if P goes carriers you should go a lot of vikings, but i've been also thinking going marines for supper to kill the incerteptors, because the vikings are not that good vs carriers. once you hit 200/200 and have usuallu 3/1 upgrades you have to attack obviously, a take a whole map if possible.
also i haven't really had a chance to try that vs the top protosses because i don't have many on my F list, but i'd love to.
i think once you get on 3-4 base with good eco and ugrades the mech is sooo good.
also im no scrub so please no responses in type of "it might work in bronze league"
i might as well post a new thread if i have time with some replays, or if anyone is intersted in helping optimalizing the build order i'd be happy enough to send you some replays
Finally someone good who knows his stuff
The problem I have however is that (as seen in the replay below between Goody and Adelscott) if you lose your army, you are screwed. Good Protosses will just take half the map, put up a shitton of warpgates and once they lose their maxed army immediately have another 40 supply on the map (diligently taking out expansions) while the Terran has to wait about a minute (45 seconds + distance to battlefield) until his new siege tanks are where they can do damage.
Mech is really really good if maxed. However it seems so fragile (forgot to siege tanks? gg, forgot so scan that edge of the maps where the 3 stargates are? gg) and why not go bio where you can take an easy win in 15 minutes, enjoying all the mobility and 'goodness in low numbers' it gives you?
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup47/download/23589589/
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On October 18 2010 06:59 Snowfield wrote:
lol, kiting zealots kills all the zealots, then you go back and kill the rest, it's running, it's run-and-shoot
With mech you can't kite anything, zealots just legcahrge your siegetanks or stalkers blink on top and then it's like wat
Oh, are we talking about Brozne/Silver players that are actually throwing legions of Zealots at you, while you are dancing with your marauders endlessly?
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I can imagine those are the guys you meet with your league points yes, assuming this is you, there where quitea few everlongs but all the others were sub diamond
Thing is, they attack you, you run back, they run back, but you have concussive shells and kill them, then you do this all day
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EPT
