i like the above view very much.
also the idea about putting medivac into the techlab units ...
even thou it hurts sooo bad- it seems right.
-ur more probably to get raven and banchee then - transition into BC is less painful.

but maybe, when the medivac goes into the tech-lab TANKS could go into reactor units?
(the siege mode still would be tech-lab)

this would change a-lot, true
but
hurts bio a little to favour mech units in the mix.

Cloak

United States816 Posts

October 18 2010 11:48 GMT

#142

On October 18 2010 19:37 Herculix wrote:
i don't really see the issue. your tier 1 buildings create the macro army of cost-efficient units. everything else you get supports that. will we start seeing something other than zerglings and roaches? will we start seeing something other than zealots, stalkers and sentries? no, we won't, because they're versatile, cheap, and acquired with little to no tech investment.

Lategame MM is still the bread and butter of the tanking, dps, and versatility. For lategame Toss, Gateway units are just the meatshields and are practically useless because of how easily they're annihilated.

Everlong

Czech Republic1973 Posts

October 18 2010 12:00 GMT

#143

I think its ok to have medivacs on reactor and tanks on tech lab. There is nothing wrong with that. Id say it will take some to discover how to properly play mech in TvP. I watched all replays from PredY and I have to say Im quite impressed how well he tweaked this build. I recommend everyone that comes to this thread to watch those games.

To PredY - several things I noticed:
1. Have you concidered 2 turrets instead of 1 in each base? It seems like when facing phoenixes, this hurts you quite a bit even if you have force of rines running around.
2. 250mm cannons should be payed more attention. Its great tool how to deal with Immortals, which is basicly the worst thing Protoss can throw at your mech army. Besides that, building Thors (at least 3-4) will help you to catch up, when there is some hidden or very fast air tech switch. And next thing is, that using 250mm cannons on immortals can result into ghosts being not so necessary. Curious how this would be viable?
3. Harrasing P expos is very hard as you stated - drops are not that effective, since your opponent will usually cove whole map and 2-3 photon cannons at each expo pretty much shut down everything, including the second best harrasing option - banshees.

Other than that, I really enjoy your mech style and wish you good luck with it.. :-)

J-C-erloeser

Germany55 Posts

October 18 2010 12:18 GMT

#144

can you elaborate:
"And next thing is, that using 250mm cannons on immortals can result into ghosts being not so necessary."
please

p.s.:
madivacs in reactor and tanks in techlab is of cause OK

- faster tanks and later medvacs just make me smile

Everlong

Czech Republic1973 Posts

October 18 2010 12:24 GMT

#145

Well, you basicly get ghosts to eliminate hardened shields from Immortals, right? Of course its good for shield removal generally, but the basic idea is, that you dont fear Immortal when you can EMP their shields. And if you can 250mm one shot Immortals, you dont have to deal with their shields. And also note, that you stun them, which results in minimum damage inflicted by Immortals. And if your army composition is mostly mech, than Immortals are the damage dealers..

J-C-erloeser

Germany55 Posts

October 18 2010 13:41 GMT

#146

thx.

TLwiki:
"Since the damage received is considered Spell damage (like Yamato Cannon), neither armor values nor the Immortal's Hardened Shield apply, and the Strike Cannons will kill an Immortal."

BluzMan

Russian Federation4235 Posts

October 18 2010 15:00 GMT

#147

On October 17 2010 22:20 JunC wrote:
To be honest, I think Terran Barracks units are just like Protoss gateway units, perhaps stronger than their alien counterparts but still, protoss can win games with gateway units only as Terran can win with barracks units only.

Perhaps Terran tends to make more barracks units than anything else, but I can't see anything else they can make.

Protoss definitely cannot win with zealot/stalker/sentry only, that's the lowest DPS composition of all three races. You won't do anything with MMM balls or hydra balls without having AoE DPS. Storms are nice, but toss units melt so fast to both of those that delayed DPS from storms doesn't look enough. You need to have some burst AoE and eventually you will need colossi in every MU. 1 storm duration is not enough to kill even a single hydralisk and hydras can do immense amounts of damage while it goes off. Hydra balls are even more a concern than MMM, vs marines (rauders are not really a huge source of DPS later in the game) you at least have 3 innate armor to tank damage, but unlike BW, hydras now do full damage to everything so you cannot use zealots to tank. Srsly, consider that hydras already did well vs zeals even with their 50% reduced damage in BW, now they just melt zealots into oblivion. You need storms/colossi to survive, and eventually in a macro game with lots of units having both is much better than having only one of the two.

sniverty

United States72 Posts

October 18 2010 15:14 GMT

#148

I've been away from the game for a while and am curious to know if marine/banshee/hellion with raven support was still popular early game for T vs P. I remember a lot of terrans using this on the ladder and it proved to be quite difficult to handle unless I go for fast HTs.

PanzerKing

United States483 Posts

October 18 2010 15:33 GMT

#149

On October 18 2010 10:52 xixecal wrote:I do feel that a bio FE into a mech army could do very well once people start figuring stuff out.

Tried it, and it's not completely awful but it's very very hard to defend your expo against a timing push on a map like metalopolis as opposed to LT (open nat = hard to bunker = hard to transition.)

Also, everyone talking up Thors is forgetting major points - EMP is an AOE ability, which means it his more than just the one immortal, one ghost can launch more than one EMP, Ghosts are faster to rebuild if lost and don't clog up the queue in your factories and Ghosts are substantially cheaper than Thors.

EDIT: Also, if attempting a bio FE into mech build, you will almost certainly lose to a timing push without EMP.

DoubleReed

United States4130 Posts

October 18 2010 15:42 GMT

#150

MM can get surprisingly large without losing effectiveness.

Compare to zerglings where they lose effectiveness quite quickly if you have too many (I found it to be around 30). On the other hand, roaches don't lose effectiveness until you get like 50+ of them.

I don't really know how Gateway units work. I know stalker/colossus balls are basically absurdly powerful, but just gate units hit a wall of effectiveness pretty early.

I actually think it has a lot to do with a ratio of Unit Size / Unit Health / Unit Range. Terran has relatively long range for the small size of the units. Roaches have a ton of health for the small size of the unit.

specs

United States22 Posts

October 18 2010 16:33 GMT

#151

I think the big problem with Terran now is that in BW it was a hit and run race. tanks were used to hold the base while vultures(and maybe wraiths) went to drop mines and kite enemy units into said mines. now the terran dont have the same effect. reapers allowed this play style to a degree, but we know what happened there, and hellions are not as fast as vultures, dont have the range, and dont have mines and we lost the goliath, which combined with vultures and tanks were a really powerful force, now we have some walking building that is countered by the same thing that counters tanks.

Point is Terran mech is not the same style as BW mech, which for me is a problem because i keep trying to use it as BW mech which does not work well...

BoondockVeritas

United States191 Posts

October 18 2010 16:55 GMT

#152

On October 17 2010 18:30 positron. wrote:
The answer is obvious. Late T tech sucks. Mech like tanks and thors don't do so hot against chargelot, blink stalkers, immortals or ultra. Nerfing marauder is a terrible idea. You can't nerf a core unit of a race that has no high tech they can rely on except BC. Plus playing mech you can't remake units as fast as other two races.

actually.. thor vs ultra has been shown to favor the thor. the unit that can attack ground and air from a range wins against a unit that can only attack ground melee. q.q some more about it terran. you're late game tech is just unused, not unusable. cattlebruisers had to get nerfed because anyone that used them would almost auto win against any ground army.

also someone said toss only goes gate and colossi, but what about HT builds or the oh so cried about 4gate opening that terran can stop with like 3 marauders and a wall or carriers (which are indeed underused from build time). for toss the easiest way to fight rines and marauders is gateway+colossi sometimes..

Setev

Malaysia390 Posts

October 22 2010 02:48 GMT

#153

On October 18 2010 06:46 GoodNewsJim wrote:
Marauder+ medivac is one of the best ways to deal with High Templar if you're not great with ghosts. The HT can psistorm your marauder, but the medivac heals them, so nothing dies or gets weakened. Any other unit than Marauder takes damage from psistorm, so if you play cat and mouse with a Protoss with a lot of high templar, your army wears down and dies.

So I always tell the player I'm coaching now: Get marauders+medivac, get ebay upgrades on infantry, and engage their army once you got a reasonable amount. Marauder+medivac vs zealots mean you kite and kill his zealots then you move on into the meat of his army. Any time you're low on health, you run and heal full.

Dude you still need to dodge storms. You can't just stand under it and take the damage, coz that will be dangerous. Check this out: