EPTI do think that tanks are 100% worthless in TvP though, but banshees are pretty good.
[Q]Will we see something other than MMM? - Page 7
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MattDamon
United States59 Posts
I do think that tanks are 100% worthless in TvP though, but banshees are pretty good. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On October 18 2010 06:06 Everlong wrote: Oh really? How many games from Terran perspective did you see in MGL other than MMM? And how many games from Protoss perspective did you see in MGF that included Collosi, HT, DT, Void Rays, Phoenixes, Immortals, even mother fucking mothership. So if Terran have a lot more varied strats then protoss does, why arent they used? Protoss is always going to go Stalk/Sen/Lots + X (HT, Col), that's a given, so why is it so hated on MMM + X (ghost, Thor, etc)? People keep saying Terran is the most versatile, I challenge that HIGHLY...except on rare occasions the versatility of Terran is almost purely in early-early mid game. Terran has the most versatile openings, in fact doing Polt pushes are amazing (raven, banshee), but in the later stages of the game if Protoss has stabilized, it's ridiculous not to fall back on MMM and whatever unit might help counter the other Protoss X unit. Maybe if the Terran had pretty colored unit animations people wouldn't complain so much. | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
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J-C-erloeser
Germany55 Posts
i thought we would find a way to transition into toss-save-mech? just a suggetion to stop this concussiv shell depate. (and when MLG is an argument ... you saw quite some kiting action against P and Z - but not necessarely running away- but around) On October 18 2010 07:01 Everlong wrote: Ok, but its not just that by the time "Carriers are killing it all" you are left only with Hellion/Tank/Thor.. If Protoss is tech switching to something like carrier, Im pretty sure you can have your fleet of Vikings/Battlecruisers, which also is "killing at all", suprisingly. And with the minerals floating when meching, its not that hard to throw several scans out there. you are certainly right. i was overcommiting and ignored BCs (+yamato cannon). should solve the problem (not tested) when playing mech. however the vikings with thor didnt do a cost efficient job. | ||
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Oldboysctv
Canada58 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
Mech isn't very viable because of the immortal. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
edit: Oh, any btw, that gray blob is certainly boring to look at.  | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
BCs are beyond terrible now. I think they may be some of the least cost-effective units in the game when you consider the tech required to get them and their speed. Why? What the hell was the reason for this? I played a 3v3 the other day and fast-teched bcs. I made like 4 of them and they all got obliterated by one player's t1 4-gate army. MMM is the most mobile and efficient army at the moment. I don't think units are unexplored as much as all other Terran units are pretty bad against protoss. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Terran mech units aren't quite so replaceable in the sense that our mech is designed to be repaired. But actually repairing them can be a chore and not always cost/time effective, where as our Bio is highly replaceable and can be healed up without any need for taking APM or focus away from whatever else we are doing. This could be considered lazy i suppose, but the other two races don't have the option to repair/heal apart from queens. Perhaps this is just me, but MMM is just so effective, cheap and sustainable that switching over to a more mech heavy style seems counter productive in some ways. All T's back-up their army with mech in the same way protoss do, but our T3 tech is hard to get and innfective in small numbers. BC's are only really good once you have like 7-8, where as Collosus are effect once you have 2-3 and become expenentially better the more you get. Ultras are great once Z can get them because they can make 10 at once, T's are limited to maybe 2-3 BC's building at a time, same with thors (which actually mass thors are becoming more popular slowly, and i personally would lvoe to see more of it). | ||
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Y0r1k
Germany4 Posts
My build is like: I open standart ( 10 supply,12 rax ,13 gas ,15 Orbital )+ walling my ramp always.Then i build bunker and wait till i have 2 tanks and raven,I also constantly build marines from 1 rax,before getting my first tank I build hellion if my scan didnt give me any informations and go scout with it. After i have raven and 2+3 tanks and rines i take natural but if my helion sees my opponent takes FE i go fast CC aswell. Anyway after having 2 bases build tanks from 3 factories and helions with blueflame from 1 factorie with reactor + i upgrade mech at armory. 2 bases are enough for this. After my raven has 200 energy i go push my opponent if i see he goes colossi and stalker etc if he goes HTs i add Ghosts and try to expand. In 200 vs 200 clashes it comes down how you siege ur tanks and micro helions so they take out zealots and dont die to storm or colossi instant + DPP and emp at HTs if possible,it requieres more APm then hit and run with MMM but if toss makes 1 misstake or you micro well its like 80% u win the clash. Probs of this build in my opinon are : hard to scout,u have to scan a lot instead of mules to get information , because its important to know if ur opponent goes mass AIR or HTs and the timing is very important. If toss catches you while tanks are unsieged ur pretty much done. If you trade armies toss is able to produce his army much faster then you. Toss has also opportunities to harass. All in all I think this build is also strong against toss but it requieres MORE APM and more knoweledge of the game,so its practically more difficult to play mech but its not weaker as some mentioned.The most players just go MMM because its easier to controll, IMO P.S sry for my bad english | ||
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Zath.erin
Canada429 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
As the meta game proggresses we will see more diverse strategys. It takes time for MU's to switch. | ||
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AJ-
United States316 Posts
your mech push is only as strong as your gas income (tanks, vikings, thors, ravens, upgrades). you can obviously make more hellions but you're not jacking up that core section of your army on the other hand, for every mule you drop, you're getting more rax, rines, and marauders. with the mapset, it's simply a lot more feasible to support mass bio play with mech units as gas allows. if you start to see maps where you can get 3 base gas easy and turtle, you might start to see some big viable mech play. it'll also open up more dangerous options for gas heavy z's at hive and late game p too. til then, the maps are your biggest obstacle for your argument edit: and yeah, immos beat naked tanks pretty nicely even with splash | ||
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kaos00
United States125 Posts
So of course, every build will still be MMM+X, we're seeing Vikings vs Collossus, Thors and Tanks vs Banelings etc... We build are core then supplement it with counters to what you counter. It's all we have. | ||
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Bandino
United States342 Posts
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
I do feel that a bio FE into a mech army could do very well once people start figuring stuff out. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
so i watched the goody vs adelscott game, what happened was basically that goody was running really low eco and pushed too early with 160 vs 200 P army and although he won few battles he couldn't cope with better eco protoss. what i like was he build ghosts for the immortals tho. anyway if you didn't read, i posted in this thread a page back so read that first, now im gonna add couple of replays. http://www.mediafire.com/?8t09eobzz219pgr my general ideas are: -once you get good eco running 3-4 bases with good upgrades and you're maxed, it's pretty good. -don't know the optimal opening, but rax fact tank expand, 1/1/1 raven expand, blue flame hellions drop seems all to be decent. -a lot of orbital commands for a lot of mules/scan - absolutely need to scan air transition from P turtle heavy cons: -yet i tried to go heavy macro games, haven't found a good midgame push, my ideas are tanks/hellions/thors with canons/ghosts/raven but it's gas heavy tho -very long games, can be really tiring -hellion harass is so difficult if P has map control and can warpin units everywhere -hard to deal with carriers, don't know the optimal number of vikings -CAN'T KILL P EXPANDS, tank drops aren't really that good, perhaps marauder drops? don't want to invest in bio though...so far i focused mainly in killing probes. warpin and canons stop that well. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
the reason medivac is the far and away best/most commonly used support for terran's macro army (marine/marauder) is because it is such a direct and impressive upgrade to terran's army. it makes them live longer, it lets them ignore terrain, and it makes them move faster, the latter 2 upgrades also being useful for mech units as well in a smaller but still significant capacity. everything else is much more disconnected in terms of strengthening the already versatile terran bio army. of COURSE they're going to pick the obvious best option. they don't have to, but if you want to win, it's always an excellent choice which has no inherent weaknesses that any other build doesn't also have except unit-specific counters. i think this patch is a step forward towards balancing terran's bio support in terms of putting the medivac's strengths on par with the other potential support units, but it remains to be seen if it's enough. i doubt it really is, but i wouldn't be surprised to see people less likely to go all medivacs all the time except to get vikings like they do now, though many still will because if you still react as quickly as is necessary, the patch changes very little for medivacs except how long it takes to move across the entire map and bio-drops in TvT (viking speed > medivac speed now). i wonder if perhaps taking the medivac off of reactor and putting it on techlab would be a proper nerf which simultaneously encourages versatile starport use without teching even further but who knows. i think mech has its place and maybe because of reactor hellions that it could stand to become a core part of a terran macro army with only marines for anti-air purposes but i think this patch was also a step backwards for that because of roaches becoming unkitable by hellions which scares people away from using them even if they weren't directly nerfed. thors however are increasingly becoming a key unit for terran support and they were buffed to not be feedbacked which increases their later game usefulness and simultaneously, buildings have more life now and 250MM is on cooldown so perhaps 250MM actually has some use that remains to be seen. again, who knows what mentalities this patch will bring about. | ||
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