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I been playing SC since 2001, and the very first thing I learned was photon cannon + carrier. Had great success against computer, then committed all my energy into learning carrier micro, to the point that I was using carrier very effectively in SC1 and hardly ever lose when I had carriers out.
When I first got into the beta, I was disappointed. SC2 carrier does not seem to be as micro-able and when i got them late game, they were absolutely dominated by viking and such, so I practiced standard openings like 2 gate 1 robo for awhile and hover around platinum, I had great trouble with the terran bioball....
Until I discovered the carrier again. I became a 560 point diamond player nearly solely relying on carrier cheese at first.
My carrier build, very micro-intensive, and actually bend on opponent over-react
Fast carrier
9 pylon, 13 gate, and one probe to scout. Expect this probe to be the hero probe. At this point you can either.
1. Harass the T building SCV
2. Lay down pylon next to his base, a feign 4 gate/photon rush. Most would over-react and pull many workers to kill, ruining their early economy. cancel the pylon
Some point after gateway, depend on result of scout, lay down a forge, gradually begin to lay down around 4 cannons over choke, if play against T chrono-boost a stalker.
3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push.
Use that carrier to attack the bioball front on, balance the damage between carrier and interceptor (use carrier to soak up damage, then pull back and use interceptor to soak up damage), this one hero carrier can usually break the first attack.
Use the hero carrier to harass at this point.
Pull back carrier and expand, transit into midgame with a stalker heavy build, and if opponent over-reacts with viking, stalker will shred them.
Important tip: conserve carriers, death of one hero carrier is usually the doom of this.
2 gate into carrier
Basically 2 gate 1 robo with robo replaced by carrier, using carrier to scout instead of ob.
I understand that on liquidpedia 2 the carrier is listed as being useless competitively. I am just wondering that being a player with APM averaging around 48-60 in game, getting to diamond 560 with carrier (something that 2 gate robo or 4 gate korean style never took me to), could suggest that this strategy (getting a early game hero carrier) may possibly have competitive merit?
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early game hero carrier vs. Void ray and other early game counter / air harassment
1 carrier will come out around the time 2-3 V ray come out (i am being generous here, I never saw more than 2 V ray with my carrier).
1 carrier easily outmicro 1 V rays.
1 carrier + 1 stalker can out micro 2 v rays
1 carrier can out micro 2 v rays that are focusing on carrier with diffculty with no air upgrade, both carrier and 2 v rays die (not bad, since 2 v ray cost more gas and v ray are supposed to counter carriers.
when 1 carrier has +1 air weapon upgrade, against 2 v rays with no upgrade, carrier will win with 121 HP left. this is significant because V ray is designed to counter carrier.
1 carrier can beat 2 corruptors when +1 air weapon is upgraded
1 carrier can defeat at least 7-8 marines with micro and cliff
1 carrier can defeat 4-5 hydralisks with micro
carrier has better DPS against workers
what do you guys think?
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This doesn't sound viable if the other person scouts. I mean carriers take a long time to get out, but its not the lack of units beforehand that loses the game, its the amount of time that a player has to scout the build before the first carrier pops out. You can kill 2 corrupters with 1 carrier, but 9 minutes is enough time to have half a dozen corrupters easily.
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TBH Carriers are probably the new scouts, they're slow, cost a huge amount for their usefulness, and their damage is horrendously low compared to other units at their tech level.
What carriers need is to have their interceptors have 1 shot so their attack doesn't double dip in armor, and bring back some of the micro mechanics that gave them a competitive place in BW.
Making as many gimmicky builds as you can come up with wont change the fact that the units design in SC2 is dated and unusable. You're basically relying on the other player not having scouted AT ALL or having a viking out, with 99% of terran will build anyways just because they can (they're terran).
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On August 24 2010 12:10 Hakker wrote:
TBH Carriers are probably the new scouts, they're slow, cost a huge amount for their usefulness, and their damage is horrendously low compared to other units at their tech level.
Carriers are enormously efficient. The biggest problem is managing to get them out; they require a lot of tech AND build very slowly, AND you have to build interceptors after they finish building, AND they're a lot stronger if you get attack upgrades. Unless you're playing against Zerg (Corruptors own them), Carriers are pretty damn hard to counter.
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I just did a test build, using zerg, with ZERO ground unit built (fastest scenario), it takes about 7:25 to have 4 corruptor.
In actuality though, zerg can hardly ever scout me due to their natural short coming when it comes to scouting. but yes, this build is not viable when a zerg scouts.
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I do wish they bring back some micro mechanics, namely the instant release of all interceptors upon upgrade, but this could make carrier OP.
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Terran and Zerg both have easily accessible hard-counters to Carriers. From what I remember from SC1 Protoss v Protoss mirror, going Carriers will cost you the game at any point that things are even and he attacks before you get 2-3 of em.
I don't know about other races scouting specifics but the Terran tech scan comes around 7 mins so... =/
Glad you came up with something that works but it relies entirely on the surprise effect. Once you meet players who've seen it all and play solid you'll start seeing the flaws in that build.
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1 gate robo is my standard build. Observe sees stargate and fleet beacon, with outline of carrier in stargate. Cut immortals and observers. Throw up 2/3 gateways with twilight council, blink stalkers. That's game.
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Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff.
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United States24776 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff.
Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win...
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On August 24 2010 12:31 TriniMasta wrote:
1 gate robo is my standard build. Observe sees stargate and fleet beacon, with outline of carrier in stargate. Cut immortals and observers. Throw up 2/3 gateways with twilight council, blink stalkers. That's game.
I've been countered effectively with blink stalkers, but remember carrier users have excess of minerals and it's possibly to cannon contain.
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Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
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On August 24 2010 12:40 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff. Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win...
Yes, Carriers do eat through Vikings like they are nothing. Each interceptor deals 5x2 damage, meaning they absolutely tear through the health of vikings because they have base armor 0; it takes less than two volleys of 8 interceptors to kill a Viking. On the other hand, Carriers have a lot of health, so Vikings can't take them out nearly fast enough to win; at 28 damage per attack (24 once shields are down), it takes 18 Viking attacks to kill 1 Carrier. Try it out in XGDragon's Unit Tester.
Also, kiting a range 8 unit with a range 9 unit isn't really effective.
On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
Yeah, BCs are one of the effective counters to Carriers. Base armor 3 = GG against an attack that deals 5x2 damage.
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On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers.
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On August 24 2010 13:25 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers.
If your opponent is massing BCs, you are MUCH better off massing Void Ray / Templar.
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Only issue is Interceptors died so easily in SC2. As long as the player ignores the Carrier opts for the Interceptors, Carriers can't do much.
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On August 24 2010 13:46 sk` wrote:
Only issue is Interceptors died so easily in SC2. As long as the player ignores the Carrier opts for the Interceptors, Carriers can't do much.
Depends on what you're shooting them with. Marines in particular kill them so fast it makes you want to cry.
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carrier can kite BC indefinitely.
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What? Interceptors die quickly? Wow, I truly missed something there as a terran. I think battlecruisers are very underestimated.
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EPT
