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On September 16 2010 12:53 MilkTea wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2010 17:58 NoirShinra wrote:I recently played against a protoss player who went an early carrier. If I remember right, it came out either the 9ish or 12ish minute mark. That's a pretty big difference in SC time, but that's why I attached a replay!! The match was played in diamond too. So there are some mistakes that I did, but I think my opponent made some more drastic mistakes which allowed me the win. BUT! If it weren't for them, the match would have been much harder and there's a good possibility I would have lost. My scouting missed the fleet beacon, so I assumed void rays and seeing that carrier did cause some good over reaction on my side. And it wasn't like the carrier was the 'hero' carrier either, it had a decent ground force with it as well. I'm sure someone can refine this play and make it extremely viable in diamond level play for protoss. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-148342.jpg) It's an honor to have one of my games in this thread. I've refined my one base carrier timing push to a much higher level now (and have, myself, become much better). I might make a thread one of these days with my strategy because it is an extremely powerful PvT and PvZ (mostly PvT) strategy, even at the higher levels, for any Protoss player to have. For now I am still collecting replays.
Haha, seeing that carrier really caught me by surprise. Just because of how unique that build was, I remember thinking to myself after the match, "That was seriously one of the coolest matches I've played." haha
On September 16 2010 13:09 Drfluffy wrote:
I been slowly trying to figure out the timing for PvT and PvZ, what it seems like at the moment, is that
1. P carrier composition defeat anything T can throw at him at 200/200 except BC (I've never seen BC in a real 1v1 ladder outside of BC rush though because teching to BC means weak viking force)
2. T one base all in is extremely powerful, bioball can abuse the timing before carrier comes out.
- implication: PvT must be played conservatively, do not get 2nd base before carrier comes out, carrier should never separate from main force.
3. Z's ultimate composition (ultra + corruptor) rofl pwns carrier + gateway units but there is a large timing window after first carrier come out until T3. P needs to be on the offensive.
I have some more replays, will post once I organize them.
The three problems I can see against a Terran is a marine ball, vikings, or well played marine/maurader drops. I don't know if guardian shield can affect air units as well, but if it does that would be extremely helpful. I'm not sure, I can't give much advice for the terran point of view, but if you see terran getting vikings from a starport with a reactor core, you could probably just switch tech to stalkers and that may be a solution to vikings.
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Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
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Good build, I was really surprised and confused by seeing voidray into carrier, then scouting your expo at your natural.. I panicked and I said to my self "it's all or nothing." Threw down about 3 more barracks and pumped constant marines, And sniped all of your interceptors and microed the best I could possibly could.. Great Game, thanks for the experience and very GM. GL yo. GG
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On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts.
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On August 24 2010 22:53 imbecile wrote:A build that I train atm, only on island maps like LT or DO: - 2gate robo, but delay warpgate
- first robo unit is warp prism, that get 3 zealots and a probe onboard, zealots into enemy mineral line
- probe on the island, expo there, use warp prism to get up starport immediately
- get warpgate ready and if possible prism speed, continue harassing to prevent your island from being scouted, add more gates
- get carriers, do shield upgrades and air weapons upgrades (can be done in parallel and shield benefits all)
- push out when you think you are ready, which obviously depends on how well the warp prism harass worked
Any timing push will kill you. How will you defend your main with no high ground advantage?
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So do you do this on one base or two?
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On September 12 2010 12:42 Cambam wrote:Scrap station gameKulas ravine gameUpdate: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful. Scrap station game: - I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game: - Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games: - He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it!
Watched the beginning of the Scrap Station game. When you scouted that he was going Forge first you could've immediately thrown down your epansion instead of your Spawning Pool. He didn't have a unit out till 5:20 into the game nor a wall-off until that moment.
You made zerglings ... run them into his base and kill his probes/ expansion. He had nothing to defend.
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3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push.
I'm sorry if this was already said don't have much time to reply back, but this is incorrect. MMM might be efficently set up by that point, but I generally long before that will be attacking opponent. If you had walled the front with PC's that would force me to scan you for cheese, once i see stargate I'd think it was voidrays naturally (usually what happens) the carrier would be a shock, but I would've either
A) start moving forces to a corner in your base and transport them all in and attack straight into base
B) drop marines on your mineral line
those two options would've been opted based on my scan.. i.e. if you pc your mineral line the marine drop is a nogo, walled front with pc... and also based on the force composition in your main. btw by 55-60 food I would've taken my natural. so by 9:30 you could expect vikings(in a 3rax opening to fac/starport).
When I plan for going MMM I do a timing push at 50 food which is generally around 7 minutes, I start leaving heading towards your base, simultaneously expanding to natural or if I think the push will be successfull I am building starport/more units to complete attack. I will have stim and concussive researched and will have +1 weapons upgrade on infantry on the way.
I dont know who you playing but your post just seemed a little off and very generous on timings. Also I think your build is considered cheese surprise. the PC's at the front are a dead give away and I think it would be most def easily scouted/scanned.
Another thing, that was a 2rax or 3rax opening for MMM, if the terran goes 111 I think you will loose to a good player easily. being that you've blocked your choke, and allowed the terran to contain you. You've forfeited ground forces for PC's early game. Spotting the stargates and getting some vikings out, you will never catch up once terran takes natural. I mean it goes for reaction and spotting it, but believe if I see PC's being layed its very indicative that I need to see what your doing and why, the defensive posture generally means you brewing something I "shouldnt" be expecting, like void rays. Either way 111 could burn through you if I simply put a reactor on the starport, and even add starports as needed.
I'm not saying carriers wouldnt work, but man from your post I would love to catch a protoss wall in and cacoon for awhile to get a carrier out. I'm asured you have a few ground units in your main for protection with the PC's, but if I can medivac to a corner you dont have LOS on, and just bring over the main force inside your base your screwed, or get a good marine drop off on your mineral line.
carriers are 350 minerals | 250 gas with 120 sec build time, early game I think it's ultra dangerous to try to persure this.
I'm requesting you post a replay of this in action please. I'd love to see a viable threat of carriers on the ladder. Would be interesting.
I am sorry if anybody else posted this I just had to say it for myself.
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On September 17 2010 00:03 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:42 Cambam wrote:Scrap station gameKulas ravine gameUpdate: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful. Scrap station game: - I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game: - Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games: - He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it! Watched the beginning of the Scrap Station game. When you scouted that he was going Forge first you could've immediately thrown down your epansion instead of your Spawning Pool. He didn't have a unit out till 5:20 into the game nor a wall-off until that moment. You made zerglings ... run them into his base and kill his probes/ expansion. He had nothing to defend.
Is this true about going hatch first? Whenever I see something like that happen I cannon rush the nat and force a cancel.
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On September 17 2010 00:27 Jinir9 wrote:Show nested quote +3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push. I'm sorry if this was already said don't have much time to reply back, but this is incorrect. MMM might be efficently set up by that point, but I generally long before that will be attacking opponent. If you had walled the front with PC's that would force me to scan you for cheese, once i see stargate I'd think it was voidrays naturally (usually what happens) the carrier would be a shock, but I would've either A) start moving forces to a corner in your base and transport them all in and attack straight into base B) drop marines on your mineral line those two options would've been opted based on my scan.. i.e. if you pc your mineral line the marine drop is a nogo, walled front with pc... and also based on the force composition in your main. btw by 55-60 food I would've taken my natural. so by 9:30 you could expect vikings(in a 3rax opening to fac/starport). When I plan for going MMM I do a timing push at 50 food which is generally around 7 minutes, I start leaving heading towards your base, simultaneously expanding to natural or if I think the push will be successfull I am building starport/more units to complete attack. I will have stim and concussive researched and will have +1 weapons upgrade on infantry on the way. I dont know who you playing but your post just seemed a little off and very generous on timings. Also I think your build is considered cheese surprise. the PC's at the front are a dead give away and I think it would be most def easily scouted/scanned. Another thing, that was a 2rax or 3rax opening for MMM, if the terran goes 111 I think you will loose to a good player easily. being that you've blocked your choke, and allowed the terran to contain you. You've forfeited ground forces for PC's early game. Spotting the stargates and getting some vikings out, you will never catch up once terran takes natural. I mean it goes for reaction and spotting it, but believe if I see PC's being layed its very indicative that I need to see what your doing and why, the defensive posture generally means you brewing something I "shouldnt" be expecting, like void rays. Either way 111 could burn through you if I simply put a reactor on the starport, and even add starports as needed. I'm not saying carriers wouldnt work, but man from your post I would love to catch a protoss wall in and cacoon for awhile to get a carrier out. I'm asured you have a few ground units in your main for protection with the PC's, but if I can medivac to a corner you dont have LOS on, and just bring over the main force inside your base your screwed, or get a good marine drop off on your mineral line. carriers are 350 minerals | 250 gas with 120 sec build time, early game I think it's ultra dangerous to try to persure this. I'm requesting you post a replay of this in action please. I'd love to see a viable threat of carriers on the ladder. Would be interesting. I am sorry if anybody else posted this I just had to say it for myself.
I have many replays posted earlier in the thread.
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On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
Sounds very gas heavy to me. That's like saying nothing beats Thor + BC combo.
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On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts.
Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs.
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On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs.
feedback - range 9
emp - range 10
yamato - range 10
can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
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I think this is a question of maps. Some maps a carrier is good.. some not at all
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On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
Feedback actually has a cast range of 14 if you already see the target (and you have obs so you will).
Feedback also keeps BCs from yomatoing.
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Feedback stops the yamato in mid-animation. It's retarded.
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On September 17 2010 17:08 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers Feedback actually has a cast range of 14 if you already see the target (and you have obs so you will). Feedback also keeps BCs from yomatoing.
No, feedback has range 9. Not 14, not 140, not 8. The High Templar can only cast feedback on a unit no more than 9 units away from the high templar. Period. Go look at the ingame data in the editor.
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I think this strategy might be a bit more surprising and it uses a pretty similar build order: I like to block off the ramp to my main or natural if possible (either a complete wall off or incomplete with Zealots blocking the hole) and start off with rushing 2 or 3 Void Rays.
Then I go for the Fleet Beacon, but pump out a Mothership instead of Carrier. While saving up for the Mothership I can lay down at least 2 or 3 more Gateways because I am waiting on gas, not minerals. Then, while the Mothership is building (should be Chronoboosting like crazy), I crank out as many Stalkers and Zealots as I can.
The final step is different depending on race. Against Zerg, I move out the second the Mothership is done and walk straight in the front door. The Stalkers should be used to focus fire any Overseers in the way. There probably won't be any Spore Crawlers because they are actually a poor defense against the Void Rays that came earlier.
Against Protoss or Terran, I prefer to wait until I am about 30 energy short of Vortex before heading out because these ground armies tend to form large groups, perfect targets for Vortex. If I am unable to Vortex against Terran, I usually force him/her to use Scan and then retreat before returning (usually 2 or 3 times in quick succession) because most Terran players do not have the tech available to get Ravens before Scan energy runs out. Against Protoss, this strategy is pretty powerful if your opponent is caught without an Observer (Cannons won't do it because they can be focused down quickly by Stalkers).
If this attack doesn't kill or cripple your opponent, do not make another Mothership. Just research the speed upgrade for Void Rays and then move into a Stalker/Void Ray build.
In the leagues, I am a Diamond Zerg player, but I like to play Protoss in custom games and this is one of my favorite builds because it is so unexpected and fun to use.
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Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless  .
Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however.
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EPT
