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I been playing SC since 2001, and the very first thing I learned was photon cannon + carrier. Had great success against computer, then committed all my energy into learning carrier micro, to the point that I was using carrier very effectively in SC1 and hardly ever lose when I had carriers out.
When I first got into the beta, I was disappointed. SC2 carrier does not seem to be as micro-able and when i got them late game, they were absolutely dominated by viking and such, so I practiced standard openings like 2 gate 1 robo for awhile and hover around platinum, I had great trouble with the terran bioball....
Until I discovered the carrier again. I became a 560 point diamond player nearly solely relying on carrier cheese at first.
My carrier build, very micro-intensive, and actually bend on opponent over-react
Fast carrier
9 pylon, 13 gate, and one probe to scout. Expect this probe to be the hero probe. At this point you can either.
1. Harass the T building SCV
2. Lay down pylon next to his base, a feign 4 gate/photon rush. Most would over-react and pull many workers to kill, ruining their early economy. cancel the pylon
Some point after gateway, depend on result of scout, lay down a forge, gradually begin to lay down around 4 cannons over choke, if play against T chrono-boost a stalker.
3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push.
Use that carrier to attack the bioball front on, balance the damage between carrier and interceptor (use carrier to soak up damage, then pull back and use interceptor to soak up damage), this one hero carrier can usually break the first attack.
Use the hero carrier to harass at this point.
Pull back carrier and expand, transit into midgame with a stalker heavy build, and if opponent over-reacts with viking, stalker will shred them.
Important tip: conserve carriers, death of one hero carrier is usually the doom of this.
2 gate into carrier
Basically 2 gate 1 robo with robo replaced by carrier, using carrier to scout instead of ob.
I understand that on liquidpedia 2 the carrier is listed as being useless competitively. I am just wondering that being a player with APM averaging around 48-60 in game, getting to diamond 560 with carrier (something that 2 gate robo or 4 gate korean style never took me to), could suggest that this strategy (getting a early game hero carrier) may possibly have competitive merit?
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early game hero carrier vs. Void ray and other early game counter / air harassment
1 carrier will come out around the time 2-3 V ray come out (i am being generous here, I never saw more than 2 V ray with my carrier).
1 carrier easily outmicro 1 V rays.
1 carrier + 1 stalker can out micro 2 v rays
1 carrier can out micro 2 v rays that are focusing on carrier with diffculty with no air upgrade, both carrier and 2 v rays die (not bad, since 2 v ray cost more gas and v ray are supposed to counter carriers.
when 1 carrier has +1 air weapon upgrade, against 2 v rays with no upgrade, carrier will win with 121 HP left. this is significant because V ray is designed to counter carrier.
1 carrier can beat 2 corruptors when +1 air weapon is upgraded
1 carrier can defeat at least 7-8 marines with micro and cliff
1 carrier can defeat 4-5 hydralisks with micro
carrier has better DPS against workers
what do you guys think?
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This doesn't sound viable if the other person scouts. I mean carriers take a long time to get out, but its not the lack of units beforehand that loses the game, its the amount of time that a player has to scout the build before the first carrier pops out. You can kill 2 corrupters with 1 carrier, but 9 minutes is enough time to have half a dozen corrupters easily.
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TBH Carriers are probably the new scouts, they're slow, cost a huge amount for their usefulness, and their damage is horrendously low compared to other units at their tech level.
What carriers need is to have their interceptors have 1 shot so their attack doesn't double dip in armor, and bring back some of the micro mechanics that gave them a competitive place in BW.
Making as many gimmicky builds as you can come up with wont change the fact that the units design in SC2 is dated and unusable. You're basically relying on the other player not having scouted AT ALL or having a viking out, with 99% of terran will build anyways just because they can (they're terran).
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On August 24 2010 12:10 Hakker wrote:
TBH Carriers are probably the new scouts, they're slow, cost a huge amount for their usefulness, and their damage is horrendously low compared to other units at their tech level.
Carriers are enormously efficient. The biggest problem is managing to get them out; they require a lot of tech AND build very slowly, AND you have to build interceptors after they finish building, AND they're a lot stronger if you get attack upgrades. Unless you're playing against Zerg (Corruptors own them), Carriers are pretty damn hard to counter.
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I just did a test build, using zerg, with ZERO ground unit built (fastest scenario), it takes about 7:25 to have 4 corruptor.
In actuality though, zerg can hardly ever scout me due to their natural short coming when it comes to scouting. but yes, this build is not viable when a zerg scouts.
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I do wish they bring back some micro mechanics, namely the instant release of all interceptors upon upgrade, but this could make carrier OP.
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Terran and Zerg both have easily accessible hard-counters to Carriers. From what I remember from SC1 Protoss v Protoss mirror, going Carriers will cost you the game at any point that things are even and he attacks before you get 2-3 of em.
I don't know about other races scouting specifics but the Terran tech scan comes around 7 mins so... =/
Glad you came up with something that works but it relies entirely on the surprise effect. Once you meet players who've seen it all and play solid you'll start seeing the flaws in that build.
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1 gate robo is my standard build. Observe sees stargate and fleet beacon, with outline of carrier in stargate. Cut immortals and observers. Throw up 2/3 gateways with twilight council, blink stalkers. That's game.
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Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff.
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United States24747 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff.
Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win...
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On August 24 2010 12:31 TriniMasta wrote:
1 gate robo is my standard build. Observe sees stargate and fleet beacon, with outline of carrier in stargate. Cut immortals and observers. Throw up 2/3 gateways with twilight council, blink stalkers. That's game.
I've been countered effectively with blink stalkers, but remember carrier users have excess of minerals and it's possibly to cannon contain.
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Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
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On August 24 2010 12:40 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff. Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win...
Yes, Carriers do eat through Vikings like they are nothing. Each interceptor deals 5x2 damage, meaning they absolutely tear through the health of vikings because they have base armor 0; it takes less than two volleys of 8 interceptors to kill a Viking. On the other hand, Carriers have a lot of health, so Vikings can't take them out nearly fast enough to win; at 28 damage per attack (24 once shields are down), it takes 18 Viking attacks to kill 1 Carrier. Try it out in XGDragon's Unit Tester.
Also, kiting a range 8 unit with a range 9 unit isn't really effective.
On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
Yeah, BCs are one of the effective counters to Carriers. Base armor 3 = GG against an attack that deals 5x2 damage.
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On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left
Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers.
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On August 24 2010 13:25 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers.
If your opponent is massing BCs, you are MUCH better off massing Void Ray / Templar.
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Only issue is Interceptors died so easily in SC2. As long as the player ignores the Carrier opts for the Interceptors, Carriers can't do much.
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On August 24 2010 13:46 sk` wrote:
Only issue is Interceptors died so easily in SC2. As long as the player ignores the Carrier opts for the Interceptors, Carriers can't do much.
Depends on what you're shooting them with. Marines in particular kill them so fast it makes you want to cry.
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carrier can kite BC indefinitely.
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What? Interceptors die quickly? Wow, I truly missed something there as a terran. I think battlecruisers are very underestimated.
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Is that some Terran love you're throwing down there Zato-1?
Yay Terran? lol.
Seriously though.. Carriers don't have enough staying power.. Especially against Terran.
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United States24747 Posts
On August 24 2010 13:24 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 12:40 micronesia wrote:On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff. Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win... Yes, Carriers do eat through Vikings like they are nothing. Each interceptor deals 5x2 damage, meaning they absolutely tear through the health of vikings because they have base armor 0; it takes less than two volleys of 8 interceptors to kill a Viking. On the other hand, Carriers have a lot of health, so Vikings can't take them out nearly fast enough to win; at 28 damage per attack (24 once shields are down), it takes 18 Viking attacks to kill 1 Carrier. Try it out in XGDragon's Unit Tester. Also, kiting a range 8 unit with a range 9 unit isn't really effective. Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left Yeah, BCs are one of the effective counters to Carriers. Base armor 3 = GG against an attack that deals 5x2 damage.
I just played around with it...
6 carriers is 6*(350+250+100) = 6*700 resources = 4200 resources
19 vikings is 19*(175+50) = 19*225 resources = 4275
I have the vikings focus fire the carriers with no other micro
Result: Even... neither side has an advantage
This was because I chose a quantity that allowed the vikings to take less shots to kill the carriers... if I went down or up 1 carrier then the carriers were favored... so at best it seems like the vikings are even, at worst outmatched assuming gas isn't more valuable than mins (which they are but I slightly compensated for that by giving a fraction of an extra unit to team viking.
I tried it with 0-0 upgrades and 3-3-3
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I used to do this in 2v2 (granted it was when I first got the game and I barely played beta and had very very little experience from SC1 (custom gamer)) and when I had gotten 10 carrier's out it was GG.
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Seriously guys, stop using the bugged unit tester map. It's not that hard to notice that at least one of the carriers launches all his interceptors at the same time and way before vikings are even in range, when you click on the attack button in the custom map hud.
Vikings beat carriers with equal resource investement and upgrades, even if you're wasting a huge amount of damage in overkill, as it would happen if you focus fire with a lot of vikings on the same target.
The only case where vikings do not win vs carriers is in a 1v3, since the carrier mantains 100% of it's dps during the whole fight, which won't be the case with more carriers.
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On August 24 2010 14:03 Drfluffy wrote:
carrier can kite BC indefinitely.
Well, the BCs can just massacre the Interceptors. It won't kill the Carriers, but it puts them out of commission for some time and gives the BCs map control.
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A build that I train atm, only on island maps like LT or DO:
- 2gate robo, but delay warpgate
- first robo unit is warp prism, that get 3 zealots and a probe onboard, zealots into enemy mineral line
- probe on the island, expo there, use warp prism to get up starport immediately
- get warpgate ready and if possible prism speed, continue harassing to prevent your island from being scouted, add more gates
- get carriers, do shield upgrades and air weapons upgrades (can be done in parallel and shield benefits all)
- push out when you think you are ready, which obviously depends on how well the warp prism harass worked
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On August 24 2010 22:10 Zato-1 wrote:Well, the BCs can just massacre the Interceptors. It won't kill the Carriers, but it puts them out of commission for some time and gives the BCs map control.
I don't know, BCs are slow and not good at maintaining map control, their ATA weapon sucks which means they can't shot out interceptors fast enough.
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On August 24 2010 23:24 Drfluffy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 22:10 Zato-1 wrote:On August 24 2010 14:03 Drfluffy wrote:
carrier can kite BC indefinitely. Well, the BCs can just massacre the Interceptors. It won't kill the Carriers, but it puts them out of commission for some time and gives the BCs map control. I don't know, BCs are slow and not good at maintaining map control, their ATA weapon sucks which means they can't shot out interceptors fast enough.
Yes they can, in my experience. Carrier DPS vs. Battlecruisers is _awful_, their armor reduces interceptor damage by 60% (assuming their armor upgrades keep up with Carrier attack upgrades); Battlecruisers get plenty of time to shoot all those mosquitoes out of the sky.
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On August 24 2010 22:53 imbecile wrote:A build that I train atm, only on island maps like LT or DO: - 2gate robo, but delay warpgate
- first robo unit is warp prism, that get 3 zealots and a probe onboard, zealots into enemy mineral line
- probe on the island, expo there, use warp prism to get up starport immediately
- get warpgate ready and if possible prism speed, continue harassing to prevent your island from being scouted, add more gates
- get carriers, do shield upgrades and air weapons upgrades (can be done in parallel and shield benefits all)
- push out when you think you are ready, which obviously depends on how well the warp prism harass worked
This sounds pretty interesting. How's it going for you so far ? I could see this going well if your opponent doesn't really scout you, but a scan could cripple you I think. Also this might struggle against early pressure.
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On August 24 2010 23:52 Wolf wrote:
This sounds pretty interesting. How's it going for you so far ? I could see this going well if your opponent doesn't really scout you, but a scan could cripple you I think. Also this might struggle against early pressure.
As I said, only training, against YABOT green tea. Works really well. Better against Z. But then again, AI is predictable. But AI is also more diligent at scouting islands than most humans.
Early it is the same as any 2 gate robo. There is a period of vulnerability, sure. But your main can be protected by force field, and the island is protected by the carriers. If it gets rough, add cannons. And that period of vulnerability you have to cover up by warp prism harass.
The pivotal point is the first warp prism drop. It's rather early, and you have a little resources saved up for the island expo. Depending on what you see then, you gotta make a decision how to go on: go for the expo, or add more gates immediately or whatever. But against computer I don't need to make any adjustments.
IMHO the key to using carriers is air the weapon upgrade. No other unit benefits so much from an attack upgrade as carrier. 16 dmg per level.
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Korea (South)512 Posts
when I push with my bioball your carrier is gonna die in 3 seconds to stimmed marines
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This is some pretty cool info, even if not that viable in 1vs1, I find it very interesting for multi :o
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Blizzard had the good graces of pitting me against some silver players and I saw a few carrier "builds". Multitasks can hold their own and corruptors decimate them esp with contaminate.
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On August 25 2010 00:49 monterto wrote:
Blizzard had the good graces of pitting me against some silver players and I saw a few carrier "builds". Multitasks can hold their own and corruptors decimate them esp with contaminate.
Multitasks? I might start calling them that actually...
I've seen a game turned by carriers, but I agree that it relies quite a bit on surprise. I'm not comfortable putting so much into a fast carrier build, though if you have some replays I'd be interested in seeing how it went for you.
This thread did raise a question in my mind though. Do interceptors benefit from armor upgrades?
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Carriers are good army support since htey can shoot-move once interceptors are out and they get additional range once interceptors are out.
They do tend to build too slowly to make an acceptable army out of though, but for T3 I would rather have an army of battlecruisers but I would want carriers for support over BC's.
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Get a robo. Expand. Get HT. Be aggressive. Get a third base. Get carriers. Win.
900 diamond point T/P player and I am yet to lose a late game PvT. Watch Socke's games for insipiration, though I didn't get inspired by him.
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Hey, I'm a 900 point diamond zerg and my protoss practice partner has been trying out carriers lately. I've been having a lot of trouble with them. The two things people have been arguing that makes carriers bad are:
1.) They take a long time to get to and make and the strategy is "ruined" if they're scouted
2.) They're hard countered by corrupters.
So in the few games I've played against my friend's carrier build, I find both of these aren't problems for him. He goes for a very quick stargate (around 24-26 supply), so he gets them quick, but is vulnerable in the beginning. However, I don't attack him in the beginning because I'm fast expanding. By the time I've got my expansion up and start making an army, he's already got a considerable ground army to defend with, plus a carrier.
He gets his expansion up pretty soon after mine and then proceeds to get the interceptor upgrade, 2-3 ship weapons upgrades, lots of zealots and stalkers and carriers. The problem with going corrupters is that it cripples my ground army and he can somehow have a sizable ground army that I have to deal with. If I get just a few corrupters, the carriers and stalkers can easily kill them. If I get more corrupters, my smaller ground army will get run over by his ground army + the carriers. My corrupters may kill all of the carriers, but then I'll have a bunch of useless anti-air units sitting around while his ground army kills my base.
In my last game, I had a bunch of hydras, and was having some success targeting the interceptors, but he was still harassing me and my economy and putting me behind. And if he ever attacks with ground army + carriers at the same time, the interceptors don't have priority. So my hydras focus on the zealots and stalkers and just get annihilated by the +2 or +3 weapons carriers.
So basically my question is why does everyone think carriers are underpowered? Maybe by themselves they are, but with the addition of a sizable ground army (which is apparently attainable with just two bases) they're incredibly powerful.
P.S. I'd like to upload the replays, but I've never done that before. Could someone explain it to me? Do I upload to some replay site and then link to that site here? If so, what's a good/easy site to do that at?
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Interceptors are too vulnerable to marines, hydra, etc. Sure they build much faster than BW but it doesn't matter since they don't auto-heal and return after each attack, they just sit out there and die (at least thats what I can tell).
The other problem is carriers move slower, have less armor, and interceptors do 5x2 damage which means armor severely hurts them. The same issues the Mship has actually.
Carriers got worse from BW while most other units (except zerglings lol) got better. Well lockdown is gone so maybe they did get a buff. If someone has replays of carriers used by good players please post them.
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Carriers work well when the unit count is low.
Good luck with getting this to work more though. I think that you will die to heavy Bio pressure from Terran.
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I've been working on mixing carriers with collosi (where 1 base goes well with 3gate robo, 2 base goes well 6gate robostargate) the strange thing about the fleet beacon though, is that getting both carriers and the mothership isn't viable at all...
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carriers are like a mix between a broodlord and a battlecruiser.
They mess with the ai much like the broodlings do and have the range of a broodlord.
Their style of attacking is similar to the battlecruiser with a lot of small rapid fire shots and of course they can attack both air and ground.
I think their fine as they are its just that mass void rays with speed are much more deadly in a late game situation.
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I dunno, this strat just seems too dependent on the opponent not scouting the carrier which almost never happens in higher diamond play. I think carriers work pretty well in the late game as a support unit to soak up some damage with the intercepters but as your main opening...no. Besides, you mention the bioball push at around 9 minutes. Well you can micro your carrier as much as you want but they'll go down in 2 seconds to stimmed marines.
Ok, now that that's out of the way. replays?
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Carriers have the best DPS in the game. Their DPS against 0 armor targets is 160 which is insane. Each point of armor reduces their DPS by 32, that seems like a lot but even with that reduction the DPS remains insane. Of course each +1 attack gives you the same +32 and obviously if you go carriers you will have that upgrade lead.
Compare to the DPS of some other units:
Battlecruiser: ground: 43.48 air: 26.09 (equal upgrades carrier will have 64 DPS against BC)
Thor ground: 46.88 air: 8 air vs light: 16 (hmm, not counting splash, its only 60% more then a single stimmed marine against mutas)
Marine: 6.98 stimmed: 10.47
Viking air: 10 vs armored: 14
Stalker: 6.94 vs armored: 10.41 (lol marines have better DPS then stalkers)
Void Ray fully charged vs armored: 41.67
Hydralisk: 14.46
Corruptor: 7.37 vs massive: 10.52 (both without corruption)
As you can see, carriers are awesome.
Edit: This info is incorrect, carriers have lower DPS, I was basing my calculations on bad data  . But carriers are still awesome!
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carriers beat vikings if the terran does not micro
vikings with micro can kite carriers because a carrier requires 6range to launch interceptors and vikings have 9range. vikings move faster than carriers too. that means vikings can shoot carriers while carriers are unable to shoot vikings.
carriers do not do 160 DPS. carriers with the upgrade launch all their interceptors and can start the battle doing 160 DPS (fully upgraded) however after that first second carriers damage is much lower
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These threads and arguments are pointless without replays to back it up.
I mean we can speculate and post threads all day. As I can go ahead and make up some viable strat on paper and post it and say it got me somewhere.
People I can be playing against could be bad, or just don't know how to counter it. With replays you can look into a strategy and see what can go wrong and actually comment on the play.
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On September 12 2010 12:22 taketobreak wrote:Carriers do not do 160 DPS. carriers with the upgrade launch all their interceptors and can start the battle doing 160 DPS (fully upgraded) however after that first second carriers damage is much lower
This may be possible as 160 is just too much, but I couldn't find any other info so I assumed it remained the same (and I looked on several sites). I'm too lazy to open the editor now.
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Scrap station game
Kulas ravine game
Update: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful.
Scrap station game:
- I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game:
- Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games:
- He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it!
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I use them all the time. I'll collect some replays, and post them when I get enough. (note: specifically of the carrier, not nessecarily rushing to them)
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carrier build time is sooo slowwwwwww. And food cost is high but once they get on the field they never die. Only bad thing is that marines and thors eat interceptors. So ive had battles where i engage and lost half the interceptors right after launch.
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As I advance from a 500 pt diamond to 700 pt diamond, I gave up this carrier play completely and rely on 2 gate robo and or stargate now. In normal macro game transition to carrier is painfully slow and does not worth it unless I am attempting to crack open a stalemate.
I think carrier can use a boost in late game viablity.
Also, SC1 carrier was so microable because a bug preventing interceptors from returning to carrier, therefore all interceptors launch instantly. Graviton catapult need to make interceptors instant launch.
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I just watched the first game. His macro was just way better than yours. You had 150 zerglings' worth of minerals at the end of the game, and there was nothing stopping you from taking more bases before he pushed.
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On September 12 2010 12:42 Cambam wrote:Scrap station gameKulas ravine gameUpdate: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful. Scrap station game: - I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game: - Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games: - He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it!
Your game on Scrap Station, You knew he was turtling up and macroing carriers, yet you over committed to static defense when you should have taken a 3rd base with that wasted money. 2 base protoss > 2 base zerg usually
Also, you could have delayed zergling speed in favor of a faster lair or expansion since you knew he was going forge/FE. This faster lair would have allowed you to pop mutas up in time to harass his mineral line before he could have warped in cannons to defend his workers. Also, you got corrupters before mutas when his carriers hadn't even arrived yet. If you got mutas before corrupters, you could have dealt even greater damage to his economy.
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9:30 is far too late. Most 1 base pushes hit between 6-8min. Relying on 1 base cannons to keep you alive for almost 10 minutes is laughable.
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I recently played against a protoss player who went an early carrier. If I remember right, it came out either the 9ish or 12ish minute mark. That's a pretty big difference in SC time, but that's why I attached a replay!! The match was played in diamond too.
So there are some mistakes that I did, but I think my opponent made some more drastic mistakes which allowed me the win. BUT! If it weren't for them, the match would have been much harder and there's a good possibility I would have lost.
My scouting missed the fleet beacon, so I assumed void rays and seeing that carrier did cause some good over reaction on my side. And it wasn't like the carrier was the 'hero' carrier either, it had a decent ground force with it as well. I'm sure someone can refine this play and make it extremely viable in diamond level play for protoss.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-148342.jpg)
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Recently I played 4v4s to get into diamond and the carriers were qiute a find for me. Whenever someone got a shitload of upgraded carriers it was gg, there is just no stopping them, even vikings and corruptors fail as you need a shitload of them and you can't make all corruptor army but you can all carrier one.
1) Stargates can be nearly always kept hronoboosted as well as cybernetics making attack upgrade. It makes the it all much faster.
2) Interceptors mess up the AI of ranged units. In an even fight it gives an edge.
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Carriers hurt like hell, but their interceptors get picked off too easily by the likes of stimmed marines and mass hydras. Worse yet, replacing interceptors for 8+ carriers is so expensive.
At least if you have a fleet beacon out and expand for more gas, you can get a Mothership too? That would make the carriers much less vulnerable to being FF'ed down brutally fast without a detector on their side that you can pick off or a scan.
It seems alot easier to mass corruptors or vikings to the degree that can counter the amount of carriers your opponent would have by the time that he could push out against you with it anyways.
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On August 24 2010 12:40 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 12:34 Supersrsbnz wrote:
Carriers own nearly anything when massed, only thing that beats em is yamato cannon, they eat through vikings like they were nothing, they are my favorite unit even though I only get to use em in garbage 4v4 n stuff. Um are you sure that they eat through vikings like they are nothing? If the terran has had ample time and money to match the protoss with building air, then I think vikings with their dedicated air to air attacks with 9 range and focus firing with kiting style micro will win...
They really do eat vikings like nothing if it gets to that point in the game. It's incredibly tough to balance your resources and unit composition that late in the game because as the T, you have to have just the right amount of vikings to be able to suicide the first few into carriers while the rest get their volleys off, as well as have the ground army to hold off theirs.
If you have too many vikings, you kill the carriers and then lose to 200/200 gateways. If you have many vikings, but not the minimum you needed to beat the carriers...you lose both ground and air because thors suck versus carriers. Then you lose your entire ground army + the game.
All the Protoss has to do is...accumulate more carriers lol. He can keep making more and more till you lose, or skew your unit composition so heavily towards vikings that they can re-max a ground army to kill you.
Carriers are wtf powerful late game the times when it does go there and P gets them.
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On August 24 2010 12:10 Hakker wrote:
TBH Carriers are probably the new scouts, they're slow, cost a huge amount for their usefulness, and their damage is horrendously low compared to other units at their tech level.
What carriers need is to have their interceptors have 1 shot so their attack doesn't double dip in armor, and bring back some of the micro mechanics that gave them a competitive place in BW.
Making as many gimmicky builds as you can come up with wont change the fact that the units design in SC2 is dated and unusable. You're basically relying on the other player not having scouted AT ALL or having a viking out, with 99% of terran will build anyways just because they can (they're terran).
the 2 attacks isn't really a problem, because you get double boost with your attack upgrades already.
the problem is that carriers cost a fortune and take about 30% longer to build than battlecruisers.
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On August 24 2010 12:21 Drfluffy wrote:
I just did a test build, using zerg, with ZERO ground unit built (fastest scenario), it takes about 7:25 to have 4 corruptor.
In actuality though, zerg can hardly ever scout me due to their natural short coming when it comes to scouting. but yes, this build is not viable when a zerg scouts.
have you also tried how much hydras the zerg will get when having an untouched expansion?
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The current problem with carrier build is that it relays on not being scouted, that's a form of all in.
I am going to try to refine it into a build where carrier numbers slowly accumulate while macroing up and expand, and really use gateway units (especially HT as the main force)
Hell, I don't even need robo until later in this build because once scouted, you know they will be building viking/corruptor.
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On September 12 2010 12:17 kme wrote:
Carriers have the best DPS in the game.
no they do not.
they have good burst damage, but there DPS is among the lowest in the entire game.
interceptors have a weaponcooldown of 3 seconds, giving each Interceptor 3.33 DPS, a full carrier only does 26.5 DPS.
what carriers have however is Burst damage, once the graviton tech is done, they do 80 Burst damage, wich is the highest of any unit in the game.
but DPS? no..
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I went home and played a couple of games where I attempt to reintergrate carriers into macro builds, the results were successful. I won 3 out of 5 games. In all the games I won, carrier managed to kill much more enemies comparing to its value, allowing solid expansion control.
In game 1 I lost to a pretty high level diamond due to mis micro, and in game 3 I lost to another diamond when he dt dropped me(had no detector, will not make this mistake again). At that moment I had massive macro advantage, but I threw it all away again, due to mismicro and DT blocking ramp.
Replay: Drfluffy vs. Klonoa, a 907 pt Z, in contrast I am 797pt with slightly slower APM. I just try to make a point that my opponent is potentially a more skilled player and he definitely saw my stargate as well as my carrier.
Also note that xel naga cavern is a good map for Z, considering the flank routes and lack of cliff for carriers to abuse. this strategy is more effective on say, lost temple.
Take home point: roach hydra is not an effective counter to carrier play.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79336-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My current carrier macro approach
1. 2 gate making gateway units as needed to defend against early push
2. stargate with phoenix for scouting/V ray if spawn close
3. make fleet beacon, produce carrier
4. Move out to secure expansion as carrier becomes complete
5. as second expansion become online, research high temp tech
In my humble experience, each expansion can support 2-3 gateway and 1 stargate.
detection is necessary against P and T. (more so for P, I think)
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Congrats! Yeah, I can see the carrier becoming a strong mid game unit than what most people expect. Seeing the carrier that early would make a zerg player think they can get enough hdyras to take it out, but with a strong ground force from the protoss backing up the carrier, it really is hard to play against.
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Now I am wondering if building enough corruptors (we are talking about 2 for each carrier for a good snipage) will actually leave zerg without ground force. corruptor cost 150-100 each, you gonna need around 8 against 4 carrier, and that's going to 1200 mineral 800 gas, which buys you 12 hydra (I think) or 10 roach.
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If you watch the replay I posted a few posts back, you can see that when I realized that the hydras weren't going to cut it I made corruptors. There was about 10-12 on the field which allowed me the win. But I kind of think it was because my opponent decided to get collosi to deal with my hydras.
If he had more stalkers and some sentries to use guardian shield instead of the collosi, I think the stalkers and carriers would have been able to snipe down the corruptors faster than the corrupters take out the carriers because the corruptors have the same range as stalkers. If you micro the carrier/s back, the stalkers spend more time shooting down the corruptors.
I think when it comes to a battle of carrier/stalker/sentry against corruptor/hydra or roach of decent composition of both, it will really come down to the player who has the better micro in that battle.
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On September 13 2010 12:50 NoirShinra wrote:
If you watch the replay I posted a few posts back, you can see that when I realized that the hydras weren't going to cut it I made corruptors. There was about 10-12 on the field which allowed me the win. But I kind of think it was because my opponent decided to get collosi to deal with my hydras.
If he had more stalkers and some sentries to use guardian shield instead of the collosi, I think the stalkers and carriers would have been able to snipe down the corruptors faster than the corrupters take out the carriers because the corruptors have the same range as stalkers. If you micro the carrier/s back, the stalkers spend more time shooting down the corruptors.
I think when it comes to a battle of carrier/stalker/sentry against corruptor/hydra or roach of decent composition of both, it will really come down to the player who has the better micro in that battle.
my apologies as I got early class tomorrow and can't afford to watch a long replay before I go to sleep, but just wondering if high temp tech was involved? It seems that carrier + HT is a real killer against Z, I honestly don't know what counters this tech route.
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In ZvPs I get wrecked to Carriers. Probably would not if I attacked earlier and wiped him out while he had nothing, but still.
He goes mass Void Rays with Flux Vanes. They are mobile, and they contain me. My only counter is the Hydralisk. Not that good of a counter since I can't catch up to Void Rays. With tons of Hydralisks, if I move out, I move out too slowly, and he can attack my base while I'm moving out with the Void Rays. He goes Void Rays into Carriers off 2 bases. I have no response. Upgraded 2-2, they tear through Hydralisks. Corruptors don't come out because of Void Rays (and Spire was already sniped), so the Carriers took me by surprise.
I think a better move would have been Mutalisks in that situation, but I question their viability until I get a large number. Upgraded Carriers will wreck anything Zerg has except for mass Corruptors.
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On September 13 2010 00:00 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:17 kme wrote:
Carriers have the best DPS in the game.
no they do not. they have good burst damage, but there DPS is among the lowest in the entire game. interceptors have a weaponcooldown of 3 seconds, giving each Interceptor 3.33 DPS, a full carrier only does 26.5 DPS. what carriers have however is Burst damage, once the graviton tech is done, they do 80 Burst damage, wich is the highest of any unit in the game. but DPS? no..
I have seen this mistake made too many times to count. Somehow people never think that tanks do 50 dps and battlecruisers 6 dps, but people always calculate carrier dps as interceptorsX8, even in BW (40 DPS!!)
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On September 13 2010 12:54 Drfluffy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 13 2010 12:50 NoirShinra wrote:
If you watch the replay I posted a few posts back, you can see that when I realized that the hydras weren't going to cut it I made corruptors. There was about 10-12 on the field which allowed me the win. But I kind of think it was because my opponent decided to get collosi to deal with my hydras.
If he had more stalkers and some sentries to use guardian shield instead of the collosi, I think the stalkers and carriers would have been able to snipe down the corruptors faster than the corrupters take out the carriers because the corruptors have the same range as stalkers. If you micro the carrier/s back, the stalkers spend more time shooting down the corruptors.
I think when it comes to a battle of carrier/stalker/sentry against corruptor/hydra or roach of decent composition of both, it will really come down to the player who has the better micro in that battle. my apologies as I got early class tomorrow and can't afford to watch a long replay before I go to sleep, but just wondering if high temp tech was involved? It seems that carrier + HT is a real killer against Z, I honestly don't know what counters this tech route.
High templars were not involved in that game. But yeah, high templars really are fear for any zerg player. Maybe you can do the standard opening with the decent ground force, carrier coming out at the 9 min mark, then start pumping out high templars. I don't know how well 2 bases can support the unit composition with gas, but if you can manage it I assume it would be extremely effective against zerg.
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I've been experimenting with carriers, carriers are best as a support unit kept in the back out of the fry to just lash damage. Against protoss they just crumble to blink stalkers, and vikings own their nipples in high level play, The only actual build that has worked for me in 900 diamond is as a counter too 2base hydra / 2base mutas, in which you 2base carriers, works on Lost Temple and Delta Quadrant
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Played another ladder game, this time I played extremely badly against a terran diamond, who used both banshee-viking as well as M&M, but I still managed to win.
The only mistakes I can see the terran made is that he failed to stim marauder my nexus, but not sure if that would have worked in late game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/80032-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
List of mistakes I made due to tired hand (I am usually better at mechanics)
1. Very early game probe stopped (5 probe) because I tried the +7% mineral trick and didn't do it correctly
2. chronoboosted a supply blocked carrier
3. forgot to research graviton catapult the whole game
4. Forgot to mine from a whole refinery (+4 idling probes)
5. had 1000 excess mineral at one point
6. failed to micro well during a big battle.
7. multiple carrier bad rally points.
8. attack a banshe with a force consist of solely with high temp and zealot
I am almost too embarassed to post this replay, but I try to make a point.
My point is, this strategy does not appearently even require perfect execution. Could this be perfected into a build that's standard for PvZ and PvT?
We also expoed about the same time. Again, I begin to transit into templar tech as I took the second base
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/81342-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
Another ladder game with carrier macro build, this time losing to a terran, whose plat but appearently shown as "slightly favored" to my 700 something diamond. His APM is also much higher
T started with bunker reaper harass, did not work, while I went with the 1 gate 1 stargate fast void ray due to spawn location. Void ray worked, took out some building and some SCVs but he pushed. Held off with v ray but lost all ground army, transit into carrier.
Attempted to carrier harass but ground force was caught out of position again. After that wave and wave of terran bio whittle down my defense.
I had advantage, I think, until I failed to defend against bio ball
Trivia: hero carrier had 17 kill before going down, and I am gonna give it a name, Carrio. Carrio just wasn't good enough for Aiur.
Lesson learned: because this is a macro build, my troop number is few while I expand. Usually my opponents opt not to push after a successful V ray harass, but this T was different and pushed and I was caught out of position.
Modifying my carrier build: I think now for added insurance I will not expand until first carrier is half way done, and first carrier should always stay on defense. Considered first carrier is a signifcant part of the fighting force.
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I believe the problem with carriers is not that they are late to get to, it's that they are as demanding as they were in BW, but SC2 is a much harder game to expand, at least for now, so it becomes a lot harder to build a good amount of carriers while defending yourself.
Rocks Blockage > Carriers 
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inteceptors are owned by new turrets
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BCs
map control
lol, maybe on steppes of war or something
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I think much like ultras were, people have the misconception that carriers are useless as they take about the same time to tech to as collossus which completely negates the they take so long argument, because collosi are used alot, there was a post about it , look it up 
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On September 12 2010 17:58 NoirShinra wrote:I recently played against a protoss player who went an early carrier. If I remember right, it came out either the 9ish or 12ish minute mark. That's a pretty big difference in SC time, but that's why I attached a replay!! The match was played in diamond too. So there are some mistakes that I did, but I think my opponent made some more drastic mistakes which allowed me the win. BUT! If it weren't for them, the match would have been much harder and there's a good possibility I would have lost. My scouting missed the fleet beacon, so I assumed void rays and seeing that carrier did cause some good over reaction on my side. And it wasn't like the carrier was the 'hero' carrier either, it had a decent ground force with it as well. I'm sure someone can refine this play and make it extremely viable in diamond level play for protoss.
It's an honor to have one of my games in this thread. I've refined my one base carrier timing push to a much higher level now (and have, myself, become much better). I might make a thread one of these days with my strategy because it is an extremely powerful PvT and PvZ (mostly PvT) strategy, even at the higher levels, for any Protoss player to have. For now I am still collecting replays.
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I been slowly trying to figure out the timing for PvT and PvZ, what it seems like at the moment, is that
1. P carrier composition defeat anything T can throw at him at 200/200 except BC (I've never seen BC in a real 1v1 ladder outside of BC rush though because teching to BC means weak viking force)
2. T one base all in is extremely powerful, bioball can abuse the timing before carrier comes out.
- implication: PvT must be played conservatively, do not get 2nd base before carrier comes out, carrier should never separate from main force.
3. Z's ultimate composition (ultra + corruptor) rofl pwns carrier + gateway units but there is a large timing window after first carrier come out until T3. P needs to be on the offensive.
I have some more replays, will post once I organize them.
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I actually lost a game to carriers earlier.
It was a two base protoss that went 7-phoenix, then followed it up with
a 25 zealots and 3 carrier push.
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On September 16 2010 12:53 MilkTea wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2010 17:58 NoirShinra wrote:I recently played against a protoss player who went an early carrier. If I remember right, it came out either the 9ish or 12ish minute mark. That's a pretty big difference in SC time, but that's why I attached a replay!! The match was played in diamond too. So there are some mistakes that I did, but I think my opponent made some more drastic mistakes which allowed me the win. BUT! If it weren't for them, the match would have been much harder and there's a good possibility I would have lost. My scouting missed the fleet beacon, so I assumed void rays and seeing that carrier did cause some good over reaction on my side. And it wasn't like the carrier was the 'hero' carrier either, it had a decent ground force with it as well. I'm sure someone can refine this play and make it extremely viable in diamond level play for protoss. It's an honor to have one of my games in this thread. I've refined my one base carrier timing push to a much higher level now (and have, myself, become much better). I might make a thread one of these days with my strategy because it is an extremely powerful PvT and PvZ (mostly PvT) strategy, even at the higher levels, for any Protoss player to have. For now I am still collecting replays.
Haha, seeing that carrier really caught me by surprise. Just because of how unique that build was, I remember thinking to myself after the match, "That was seriously one of the coolest matches I've played." haha
On September 16 2010 13:09 Drfluffy wrote:
I been slowly trying to figure out the timing for PvT and PvZ, what it seems like at the moment, is that
1. P carrier composition defeat anything T can throw at him at 200/200 except BC (I've never seen BC in a real 1v1 ladder outside of BC rush though because teching to BC means weak viking force)
2. T one base all in is extremely powerful, bioball can abuse the timing before carrier comes out.
- implication: PvT must be played conservatively, do not get 2nd base before carrier comes out, carrier should never separate from main force.
3. Z's ultimate composition (ultra + corruptor) rofl pwns carrier + gateway units but there is a large timing window after first carrier come out until T3. P needs to be on the offensive.
I have some more replays, will post once I organize them.
The three problems I can see against a Terran is a marine ball, vikings, or well played marine/maurader drops. I don't know if guardian shield can affect air units as well, but if it does that would be extremely helpful. I'm not sure, I can't give much advice for the terran point of view, but if you see terran getting vikings from a starport with a reactor core, you could probably just switch tech to stalkers and that may be a solution to vikings.
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Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
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Good build, I was really surprised and confused by seeing voidray into carrier, then scouting your expo at your natural.. I panicked and I said to my self "it's all or nothing." Threw down about 3 more barracks and pumped constant marines, And sniped all of your interceptors and microed the best I could possibly could.. Great Game, thanks for the experience and very GM. GL yo. GG
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On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts.
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On August 24 2010 22:53 imbecile wrote:A build that I train atm, only on island maps like LT or DO: - 2gate robo, but delay warpgate
- first robo unit is warp prism, that get 3 zealots and a probe onboard, zealots into enemy mineral line
- probe on the island, expo there, use warp prism to get up starport immediately
- get warpgate ready and if possible prism speed, continue harassing to prevent your island from being scouted, add more gates
- get carriers, do shield upgrades and air weapons upgrades (can be done in parallel and shield benefits all)
- push out when you think you are ready, which obviously depends on how well the warp prism harass worked
Any timing push will kill you. How will you defend your main with no high ground advantage?
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So do you do this on one base or two?
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On September 12 2010 12:42 Cambam wrote:Scrap station gameKulas ravine gameUpdate: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful. Scrap station game: - I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game: - Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games: - He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it!
Watched the beginning of the Scrap Station game. When you scouted that he was going Forge first you could've immediately thrown down your epansion instead of your Spawning Pool. He didn't have a unit out till 5:20 into the game nor a wall-off until that moment.
You made zerglings ... run them into his base and kill his probes/ expansion. He had nothing to defend.
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3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push.
I'm sorry if this was already said don't have much time to reply back, but this is incorrect. MMM might be efficently set up by that point, but I generally long before that will be attacking opponent. If you had walled the front with PC's that would force me to scan you for cheese, once i see stargate I'd think it was voidrays naturally (usually what happens) the carrier would be a shock, but I would've either
A) start moving forces to a corner in your base and transport them all in and attack straight into base
B) drop marines on your mineral line
those two options would've been opted based on my scan.. i.e. if you pc your mineral line the marine drop is a nogo, walled front with pc... and also based on the force composition in your main. btw by 55-60 food I would've taken my natural. so by 9:30 you could expect vikings(in a 3rax opening to fac/starport).
When I plan for going MMM I do a timing push at 50 food which is generally around 7 minutes, I start leaving heading towards your base, simultaneously expanding to natural or if I think the push will be successfull I am building starport/more units to complete attack. I will have stim and concussive researched and will have +1 weapons upgrade on infantry on the way.
I dont know who you playing but your post just seemed a little off and very generous on timings. Also I think your build is considered cheese surprise. the PC's at the front are a dead give away and I think it would be most def easily scouted/scanned.
Another thing, that was a 2rax or 3rax opening for MMM, if the terran goes 111 I think you will loose to a good player easily. being that you've blocked your choke, and allowed the terran to contain you. You've forfeited ground forces for PC's early game. Spotting the stargates and getting some vikings out, you will never catch up once terran takes natural. I mean it goes for reaction and spotting it, but believe if I see PC's being layed its very indicative that I need to see what your doing and why, the defensive posture generally means you brewing something I "shouldnt" be expecting, like void rays. Either way 111 could burn through you if I simply put a reactor on the starport, and even add starports as needed.
I'm not saying carriers wouldnt work, but man from your post I would love to catch a protoss wall in and cacoon for awhile to get a carrier out. I'm asured you have a few ground units in your main for protection with the PC's, but if I can medivac to a corner you dont have LOS on, and just bring over the main force inside your base your screwed, or get a good marine drop off on your mineral line.
carriers are 350 minerals | 250 gas with 120 sec build time, early game I think it's ultra dangerous to try to persure this.
I'm requesting you post a replay of this in action please. I'd love to see a viable threat of carriers on the ladder. Would be interesting.
I am sorry if anybody else posted this I just had to say it for myself.
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On September 17 2010 00:03 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:42 Cambam wrote:Scrap station gameKulas ravine gameUpdate: I've uploaded two replays of me and my diamond practice partner. He gets carriers both games. And of course, disclaimer, they were practice games and not perfect play, but they still illustrate the point that carriers can be powerful. Scrap station game: - I couldn't have asked for more luck. I was already going corruptor/mutalisk when I first scouted the carriers.
- I feel that if I had had more corruptors, I wouldn't have had enough of an army to deal with his ground forces
Kulas ravine game: - Like I said earlier, I scouted the carriers, but was in the process of fast expanding and therefore was in no position to attack, especially with his wall off in place.
- Killing off the interceptors seemed to be effective, but it didn't stop him from killing tons of drones while I was doing it.
- If the protoss pushes with both the ground army and the carriers at the same time, the interceptors do not have priority; the zealots and stalkers do. Therefore, the hydras will waste their dps on the meat shields and die to the super high dps interceptors.
- Again, I feel like if I had more corruptors, my ground army would be too small to deal with his ground army.
Both games: - He gets +3 air attack ASAP, which as people have pointed out, is a super dps boost to carriers
- Unlike bronze players, he doesn't get only carriers, which would easily be countered by mass corruptors, he gets only a few carriers and a big ground army.
So again, I don't see why people think carriers are underpowered. My protoss friend seems to have no problem affording them on two bases, he's safe from counter attack if I'm expanding as well, and getting too little or too many corruptors loses you the game. I think a big ground army like he gets in both games, plus the +3 air attack upgrade, makes carriers quite strong, if not overpowered. If I'm wrong, tell me how to beat it! Watched the beginning of the Scrap Station game. When you scouted that he was going Forge first you could've immediately thrown down your epansion instead of your Spawning Pool. He didn't have a unit out till 5:20 into the game nor a wall-off until that moment. You made zerglings ... run them into his base and kill his probes/ expansion. He had nothing to defend.
Is this true about going hatch first? Whenever I see something like that happen I cannon rush the nat and force a cancel.
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On September 17 2010 00:27 Jinir9 wrote:Show nested quote +3. Build carrier, your carrier will come out around 9:30ish, this is also the time most T's bio ball begin to push. I'm sorry if this was already said don't have much time to reply back, but this is incorrect. MMM might be efficently set up by that point, but I generally long before that will be attacking opponent. If you had walled the front with PC's that would force me to scan you for cheese, once i see stargate I'd think it was voidrays naturally (usually what happens) the carrier would be a shock, but I would've either A) start moving forces to a corner in your base and transport them all in and attack straight into base B) drop marines on your mineral line those two options would've been opted based on my scan.. i.e. if you pc your mineral line the marine drop is a nogo, walled front with pc... and also based on the force composition in your main. btw by 55-60 food I would've taken my natural. so by 9:30 you could expect vikings(in a 3rax opening to fac/starport). When I plan for going MMM I do a timing push at 50 food which is generally around 7 minutes, I start leaving heading towards your base, simultaneously expanding to natural or if I think the push will be successfull I am building starport/more units to complete attack. I will have stim and concussive researched and will have +1 weapons upgrade on infantry on the way. I dont know who you playing but your post just seemed a little off and very generous on timings. Also I think your build is considered cheese surprise. the PC's at the front are a dead give away and I think it would be most def easily scouted/scanned. Another thing, that was a 2rax or 3rax opening for MMM, if the terran goes 111 I think you will loose to a good player easily. being that you've blocked your choke, and allowed the terran to contain you. You've forfeited ground forces for PC's early game. Spotting the stargates and getting some vikings out, you will never catch up once terran takes natural. I mean it goes for reaction and spotting it, but believe if I see PC's being layed its very indicative that I need to see what your doing and why, the defensive posture generally means you brewing something I "shouldnt" be expecting, like void rays. Either way 111 could burn through you if I simply put a reactor on the starport, and even add starports as needed. I'm not saying carriers wouldnt work, but man from your post I would love to catch a protoss wall in and cacoon for awhile to get a carrier out. I'm asured you have a few ground units in your main for protection with the PC's, but if I can medivac to a corner you dont have LOS on, and just bring over the main force inside your base your screwed, or get a good marine drop off on your mineral line. carriers are 350 minerals | 250 gas with 120 sec build time, early game I think it's ultra dangerous to try to persure this. I'm requesting you post a replay of this in action please. I'd love to see a viable threat of carriers on the ladder. Would be interesting. I am sorry if anybody else posted this I just had to say it for myself.
I have many replays posted earlier in the thread.
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On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it.
Sounds very gas heavy to me. That's like saying nothing beats Thor + BC combo.
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On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts.
Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs.
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On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs.
feedback - range 9
emp - range 10
yamato - range 10
can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
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I think this is a question of maps. Some maps a carrier is good.. some not at all
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On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
Feedback actually has a cast range of 14 if you already see the target (and you have obs so you will).
Feedback also keeps BCs from yomatoing.
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Feedback stops the yamato in mid-animation. It's retarded.
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On September 17 2010 17:08 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers Feedback actually has a cast range of 14 if you already see the target (and you have obs so you will). Feedback also keeps BCs from yomatoing.
No, feedback has range 9. Not 14, not 140, not 8. The High Templar can only cast feedback on a unit no more than 9 units away from the high templar. Period. Go look at the ingame data in the editor.
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I think this strategy might be a bit more surprising and it uses a pretty similar build order: I like to block off the ramp to my main or natural if possible (either a complete wall off or incomplete with Zealots blocking the hole) and start off with rushing 2 or 3 Void Rays.
Then I go for the Fleet Beacon, but pump out a Mothership instead of Carrier. While saving up for the Mothership I can lay down at least 2 or 3 more Gateways because I am waiting on gas, not minerals. Then, while the Mothership is building (should be Chronoboosting like crazy), I crank out as many Stalkers and Zealots as I can.
The final step is different depending on race. Against Zerg, I move out the second the Mothership is done and walk straight in the front door. The Stalkers should be used to focus fire any Overseers in the way. There probably won't be any Spore Crawlers because they are actually a poor defense against the Void Rays that came earlier.
Against Protoss or Terran, I prefer to wait until I am about 30 energy short of Vortex before heading out because these ground armies tend to form large groups, perfect targets for Vortex. If I am unable to Vortex against Terran, I usually force him/her to use Scan and then retreat before returning (usually 2 or 3 times in quick succession) because most Terran players do not have the tech available to get Ravens before Scan energy runs out. Against Protoss, this strategy is pretty powerful if your opponent is caught without an Observer (Cannons won't do it because they can be focused down quickly by Stalkers).
If this attack doesn't kill or cripple your opponent, do not make another Mothership. Just research the speed upgrade for Void Rays and then move into a Stalker/Void Ray build.
In the leagues, I am a Diamond Zerg player, but I like to play Protoss in custom games and this is one of my favorite builds because it is so unexpected and fun to use.
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Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless .
Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however.
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On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
Right, but you don't need to feedback the ghosts. In fact, using feedback on the ghosts is just dumb. If the templar are spread out, I'll bet money on the templar getting enough feedbacks off on the BC before you get enough EMPs off. After that, without yamato for the BC, its easy pickings for cars.
And since yamato has a ridiculously large ramp up time, you can be pretty sloppy with your feedbacks and still ruin the BC's DPS.
Plus, just like SCBW, carriers can kite bc all day. Even worse for the BC, the carriers will just regenerate their shields if they do get EMPd, since "in theory" the bc will never be able to hit the carriers (8 range vs 6 range)
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On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however.
Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it.
Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent.
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On September 19 2010 13:06 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however. Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it. Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent.
Other way around my man. Zealots rip shit up when you have carriers on the field. Hydras, marines, stalkers, basically any GtA unit will target interceptors along with your zealots, meaning your zealots don't take much damage since you can have 24-32 additional targets on the field. Hydras, mutas, and roaches get chewed up by carrier / stalker zealot.
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A very strong end-game synergy is carrier/ht, especially against zerg. I've been trying to find out a way, maybe to open templar, and then transition in to carrier zealot ht as the zerg moves to hive tech. Carrier/ht is very strong because the hts:
Storm hydras
Feedback Corrupters
Then can morph into archons, which vastly improves dps against corrupters.
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Honestly, in ZvP, I've run into some carrier builds that frustrated the bajesus out of me.
One thing that I've seen a couple times that was hellacious to deal with:
Start with a FE: forge first, or 1gate, forge, or 2gate forge, or 2gate expand... Pick your poison.
Typical Zerg response to a Toss FE is to expand (sometimes twice) and tech up to muta
So a smart Toss might FE into double stargate. This shuts down the muta play hard, forcing Zerg back into hydra. This is doubly good because Z is spreading his tech out so much, fairly early in the game, cutting into both drones and army size.
And from there, Toss gets chargelots and carriers. Chargelots really make life hard for hydras. The phoenixes toss already has out will discourage more muta play, and the carriers force Z into making corruptors, really crippling his army by forcing him to make so much different shit.
These are games at or above 1300 Diamond. Not pro level, but fairly upper-mid level.
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On September 19 2010 13:09 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 13:06 Ravomat wrote:On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however. Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it. Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent. Other way around my man. Zealots rip shit up when you have carriers on the field. Hydras, marines, stalkers, basically any GtA unit will target interceptors along with your zealots, meaning your zealots don't take much damage since you can have 24-32 additional targets on the field. Hydras, mutas, and roaches get chewed up by carrier / stalker zealot.
Gotta take a look at this tomorrow. I rarely get a somewhat even upfront clash when carriers are out but last I checked in a game I had no zealots left and no interceptors rebuilding (out of 4 carriers).
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On September 19 2010 13:27 Chronopolis wrote:
A very strong end-game synergy is carrier/ht, especially against zerg. I've been trying to find out a way, maybe to open templar, and then transition in to carrier zealot ht as the zerg moves to hive tech. Carrier/ht is very strong because the hts:
Storm hydras
Feedback Corrupters
Then can morph into archons, which vastly improves dps against corrupters.
You guys should really look into antimage's void ray expand versus zergs. It already provides a path to the carriers by having the stargate. Then, as you expand, you will gain enough gas to effectively make templar in the later game while making a fleet beacon.
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Hello all. I been attempting to perfect my one base carrier build, works best on map with long rush distance but short air rush distance. On scrap station I realized that it's a very good technique against the raven + marauder + banshee push since carrier just negate PDD, raven and marauder.
Basically, you start off with 1 gate 1 core build, get a second gate, then get a starport. Depends on the match up (vs. terran I like to scout with phoneix just in case of banshee, in places with short rush distance you can also get a void ray out before the 2nd gate, i.e. 1 gate stargate.), then get fleet beacon while wrapping in zealots, and then finally got carrier while wrapping in zealots. get protoss air level one right after wrap gate research (chronoboost once), then after getting graviton catapult get stalker only.
At the end, you are looking at a push at 9 minutes, with 9 stalker and 9 zealots or 7 stalker + 10 lot + sentry against T and one carrier with +1 air and catapault.
I like to call this the 9-9-9 build, haha.
Just did a test in unit tester, with some carrier micro, 1 carrier, 9 stalker and 9 zealots can defeat 14 stalker and 10 zealots without using cliffs, that is 725 + 250 gas more army than the carrier side. The key point is to move the carrier back and forth to allow stalkers or enemy ATA to shot up carrier and perserve your own force.
Assuming the enemy P does not get any tech, your tech route would cost you 150 + 300 + 450 or 900 mineral and 150 + 200 + 250 or 600 gas.
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To take the most advantage of the stargate tech route, I been thinking about getting an early void ray and use it to contain, then use it as a part of the main army. When defending, I may potentially charge it on my own building, and when attacking, i could keep void ray charged using my carrier. It takes roughly 60-80 shields to keep void ray charged.
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you need to force you oppoment into a unit composition that isn't effective vs flyers that are armored
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On August 24 2010 14:03 Drfluffy wrote:
carrier can kite BC indefinitely.
Their interceptors sure can't though. Since they don't replenish their health instantly like in SC they're the weak spot of carriers and render micro inefficient in SC 2.
They're more of an army support unit in starcraft 2. At the cost of a zergling, interceptors have more than twice the life and damage and can fly and hit all visable targets and takes only 8 seconds to produce. Think of the carrier as an expensive flying starport that makes super cheap units.
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Hello,
Fluffy > Do you have some replays to share please ?
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I have made a test and carriers kill the vikings in ratio 1:3.
6 carriers with fast interceptors and +3 attack vs 18 vikings +2 attack: 2 carriers ramained alive, vikings focus fired the carriers. So carriers don't get hard countered by vikings.
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On September 25 2010 02:05 hybride wrote:
Hello,
Fluffy > Do you have some replays to share please ?
there are reps in the thread.
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Oh man I got hit with carriers in ZvP for the first time today. The big problem in reviewing the game was that my econ was lower than his - even with an earliesh expo him pumping out zealots and stalkers consistently forced me to drone less and prepare for what I thought would be a 4gate push. When that didn't happen I was on the back foot economically and his chargealots/carriers made my hydras work extermly hard. I managed to hold by spreading creep well and kiting the chargealtos but ultimatly he would inflict enough hydra casualties that I couldn't really counterattack succesfully. I also made the mistake of getting my spire and going corruptor as soon as I saw the first carrier - honestly I should have just invested in more upgrades for my hydras.
In retrospect mass queens would have worked too, tanking hits from zealots with transfusion.
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On August 24 2010 13:29 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 13:25 TedJustice wrote:On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers. If your opponent is massing BCs, you are MUCH better off massing Void Ray / Templar.
This. Void rays are sooo much better than carriers at what they do, especially if you get the speed upgrade for the rays. Carriers honestly don't seem to have a competitve purpose, imho.
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What makes the carrier non viable is the mobility of vikings compared to Goliaths. In SCBW Carriers would shot out the interceptors and back off since their range of atk was larger then their range of deployment. Goliatha would have a hard time hitting the carriers.
Vikings don't have this issue. I have been experimenting and with micro Vikings are better then any air unit with micro. Except phoenixes if im not mistaken. Haven't tried it out. But Vikings even rape mutas with good micro and +1 atk.
P.S. It seems also that carriers have smaller range. Not sure though. In BW the range was EPIC.
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Meh, there isn't a real safe tech route to carriers. Imo you can't afford carriers from 2 bases, you need way too much gas cos a low amount of carriers won't cut besides speed void rays or void rays in general are as awesome as carriers if you can produce from 2 stargates. They do sick damage, cost less resources, are available much faster and way more mobile. That said, I wouldn't get carriers just for the sake of getting carriers when void rays do the job aswell and probably better. I have to admit, I just went carriers once in a 1v1 It was fun but if you make it into the very late game I found void rays to be more versatile.
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I'm a 600 point diamond random player, and I got totally waxed by a protoss player who went 2 base carrier/zealot/stalker against my 4 base roach/hydra/corruptor army. I was extremely surprised at how poorly my corruptors fared against a stack of carriers.
I thought I was playing a game where I could max out, expand over the map, and crush his army when he was forced to move out, but this plan totally didn't work. My best guess is that you should go into heavy pressure mode when you see the fleet beacon.
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On September 25 2010 09:03 Agenda42 wrote:
I'm a 600 point diamond random player, and I got totally waxed by a protoss player who went 2 base carrier/zealot/stalker against my 4 base roach/hydra/corruptor army. I was extremely surprised at how poorly my corruptors fared against a stack of carriers.
I thought I was playing a game where I could max out, expand over the map, and crush his army when he was forced to move out, but this plan totally didn't work. My best guess is that you should go into heavy pressure mode when you see the fleet beacon.
I've run into this before ZvP (2 base turtle into carriers), the first roach/hydra/corruptor army I threw at it died to my surprise. I tried again with the same unit mix but using corruption on all carriers and as much focus fire as possible and won, it made a huge difference.
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On September 25 2010 07:26 GoooN wrote:
Meh, there isn't a real safe tech route to carriers. Imo you can't afford carriers from 2 bases, you need way too much gas cos a low amount of carriers won't cut besides speed void rays or void rays in general are as awesome as carriers if you can produce from 2 stargates. They do sick damage, cost less resources, are available much faster and way more mobile. That said, I wouldn't get carriers just for the sake of getting carriers when void rays do the job aswell and probably better. I have to admit, I just went carriers once in a 1v1 It was fun but if you make it into the very late game I found void rays to be more versatile.
Ummm actually you can easily produce carriers off 1 base, or you can fe into a 2-3 stargate carrier build. You just have to hold off attacks and harassment long enough for you to get your first carrier out and you should be good. If they don't scout it (i.e. you hide your sg and fleet beacon well) they should be completely unprepared and suffer for it. Works pretty well in every mu. Scrap station seems to be a good map for protoss air play
edit: i should add that you'll have a lot of extra minerals if you go pure carriers, so constantly produce off 2 gates until you're expansion kicks in. you'll need zealots to tank for the carriers
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I asked the Protoss Carrier when to use him and he said...most of the time, it's best to pull carriers out if there are high templar.
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EPT
