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On September 17 2010 16:45 amorpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 16:01 Floophead_III wrote:On September 16 2010 23:28 farseerdk wrote:On September 16 2010 17:59 link0 wrote:
Carriers + HT is the strongest unit combo in the game. Nothing beats it. Ghosts and BC's would beat it. And you wouldn't even need that many ghosts. Nope. HT just feedback everything. You'll never get EMPs off on the HT because feedback has more range. Also carriers can kite BCs. feedback - range 9 emp - range 10 yamato - range 10 can't kite yamato sorry, neither with vikings nor carriers
Right, but you don't need to feedback the ghosts. In fact, using feedback on the ghosts is just dumb. If the templar are spread out, I'll bet money on the templar getting enough feedbacks off on the BC before you get enough EMPs off. After that, without yamato for the BC, its easy pickings for cars.
And since yamato has a ridiculously large ramp up time, you can be pretty sloppy with your feedbacks and still ruin the BC's DPS.
Plus, just like SCBW, carriers can kite bc all day. Even worse for the BC, the carriers will just regenerate their shields if they do get EMPd, since "in theory" the bc will never be able to hit the carriers (8 range vs 6 range)
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On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless  . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however.
Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it.
Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent.
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On September 19 2010 13:06 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however. Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it. Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent.
Other way around my man. Zealots rip shit up when you have carriers on the field. Hydras, marines, stalkers, basically any GtA unit will target interceptors along with your zealots, meaning your zealots don't take much damage since you can have 24-32 additional targets on the field. Hydras, mutas, and roaches get chewed up by carrier / stalker zealot.
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A very strong end-game synergy is carrier/ht, especially against zerg. I've been trying to find out a way, maybe to open templar, and then transition in to carrier zealot ht as the zerg moves to hive tech. Carrier/ht is very strong because the hts:
Storm hydras
Feedback Corrupters
Then can morph into archons, which vastly improves dps against corrupters.
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Honestly, in ZvP, I've run into some carrier builds that frustrated the bajesus out of me.
One thing that I've seen a couple times that was hellacious to deal with:
Start with a FE: forge first, or 1gate, forge, or 2gate forge, or 2gate expand... Pick your poison.
Typical Zerg response to a Toss FE is to expand (sometimes twice) and tech up to muta
So a smart Toss might FE into double stargate. This shuts down the muta play hard, forcing Zerg back into hydra. This is doubly good because Z is spreading his tech out so much, fairly early in the game, cutting into both drones and army size.
And from there, Toss gets chargelots and carriers. Chargelots really make life hard for hydras. The phoenixes toss already has out will discourage more muta play, and the carriers force Z into making corruptors, really crippling his army by forcing him to make so much different shit.
These are games at or above 1300 Diamond. Not pro level, but fairly upper-mid level.
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On September 19 2010 13:09 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 13:06 Ravomat wrote:On September 19 2010 12:51 althaz wrote:Interceptors die EXTREMELY fast to a dozen or so marines (which basically every Terran build will have in it). Disarmed carriers are obviously useless . Carriers aren't completely useless, they are a valuable late-game tool, but you have to get well ahead before you opt to finish him with carriers, realistically. They are great for breaking siege lines or forcing their protection to move however. Carriers alone don't do the trick. You need Zealots and/or Stalkers to accompany them otherwise they are just skirmishers. If you got Zealots, they soak up the damage making your carriers the damage dealer but if you use stalkers the interceptors take the damage and your stalker will do it. Also I don't think you need to get a serious lead, you just need to stall your opponent. Other way around my man. Zealots rip shit up when you have carriers on the field. Hydras, marines, stalkers, basically any GtA unit will target interceptors along with your zealots, meaning your zealots don't take much damage since you can have 24-32 additional targets on the field. Hydras, mutas, and roaches get chewed up by carrier / stalker zealot.
Gotta take a look at this tomorrow. I rarely get a somewhat even upfront clash when carriers are out but last I checked in a game I had no zealots left and no interceptors rebuilding (out of 4 carriers).
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On September 19 2010 13:27 Chronopolis wrote:
A very strong end-game synergy is carrier/ht, especially against zerg. I've been trying to find out a way, maybe to open templar, and then transition in to carrier zealot ht as the zerg moves to hive tech. Carrier/ht is very strong because the hts:
Storm hydras
Feedback Corrupters
Then can morph into archons, which vastly improves dps against corrupters.
You guys should really look into antimage's void ray expand versus zergs. It already provides a path to the carriers by having the stargate. Then, as you expand, you will gain enough gas to effectively make templar in the later game while making a fleet beacon.
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Hello all. I been attempting to perfect my one base carrier build, works best on map with long rush distance but short air rush distance. On scrap station I realized that it's a very good technique against the raven + marauder + banshee push since carrier just negate PDD, raven and marauder.
Basically, you start off with 1 gate 1 core build, get a second gate, then get a starport. Depends on the match up (vs. terran I like to scout with phoneix just in case of banshee, in places with short rush distance you can also get a void ray out before the 2nd gate, i.e. 1 gate stargate.), then get fleet beacon while wrapping in zealots, and then finally got carrier while wrapping in zealots. get protoss air level one right after wrap gate research (chronoboost once), then after getting graviton catapult get stalker only.
At the end, you are looking at a push at 9 minutes, with 9 stalker and 9 zealots or 7 stalker + 10 lot + sentry against T and one carrier with +1 air and catapault.
I like to call this the 9-9-9 build, haha.
Just did a test in unit tester, with some carrier micro, 1 carrier, 9 stalker and 9 zealots can defeat 14 stalker and 10 zealots without using cliffs, that is 725 + 250 gas more army than the carrier side. The key point is to move the carrier back and forth to allow stalkers or enemy ATA to shot up carrier and perserve your own force.
Assuming the enemy P does not get any tech, your tech route would cost you 150 + 300 + 450 or 900 mineral and 150 + 200 + 250 or 600 gas.
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To take the most advantage of the stargate tech route, I been thinking about getting an early void ray and use it to contain, then use it as a part of the main army. When defending, I may potentially charge it on my own building, and when attacking, i could keep void ray charged using my carrier. It takes roughly 60-80 shields to keep void ray charged.
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you need to force you oppoment into a unit composition that isn't effective vs flyers that are armored
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On August 24 2010 14:03 Drfluffy wrote:
carrier can kite BC indefinitely.
Their interceptors sure can't though. Since they don't replenish their health instantly like in SC they're the weak spot of carriers and render micro inefficient in SC 2.
They're more of an army support unit in starcraft 2. At the cost of a zergling, interceptors have more than twice the life and damage and can fly and hit all visable targets and takes only 8 seconds to produce. Think of the carrier as an expensive flying starport that makes super cheap units.
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Hello,
Fluffy > Do you have some replays to share please ?
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I have made a test and carriers kill the vikings in ratio 1:3.
6 carriers with fast interceptors and +3 attack vs 18 vikings +2 attack: 2 carriers ramained alive, vikings focus fired the carriers. So carriers don't get hard countered by vikings.
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On September 25 2010 02:05 hybride wrote:
Hello,
Fluffy > Do you have some replays to share please ?
there are reps in the thread.
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Oh man I got hit with carriers in ZvP for the first time today. The big problem in reviewing the game was that my econ was lower than his - even with an earliesh expo him pumping out zealots and stalkers consistently forced me to drone less and prepare for what I thought would be a 4gate push. When that didn't happen I was on the back foot economically and his chargealots/carriers made my hydras work extermly hard. I managed to hold by spreading creep well and kiting the chargealtos but ultimatly he would inflict enough hydra casualties that I couldn't really counterattack succesfully. I also made the mistake of getting my spire and going corruptor as soon as I saw the first carrier - honestly I should have just invested in more upgrades for my hydras.
In retrospect mass queens would have worked too, tanking hits from zealots with transfusion.
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On August 24 2010 13:29 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 13:25 TedJustice wrote:On August 24 2010 13:19 Equalsdee wrote:
Sure, when massed carries are quite decent, however for being the most expensive production unit they aren't that effective i'm afraid, and for the most part you will never be able to reach the kind of army you want against a decent/good player
Oh and battlecruisers counter carriers really bad, even without yamato cannon a fully upgraded battlecruiser beats a fully upgraded carrier with 200~~ hp left Coincidentally, 200 hp is exactly how much damage a single feedback would do to a battlecruiser. Food for thought, as the high gas cost of templars has somewhat good synergy with the high mineral cost of Carriers. If your opponent is massing BCs, you are MUCH better off massing Void Ray / Templar.
This. Void rays are sooo much better than carriers at what they do, especially if you get the speed upgrade for the rays. Carriers honestly don't seem to have a competitve purpose, imho.
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What makes the carrier non viable is the mobility of vikings compared to Goliaths. In SCBW Carriers would shot out the interceptors and back off since their range of atk was larger then their range of deployment. Goliatha would have a hard time hitting the carriers.
Vikings don't have this issue. I have been experimenting and with micro Vikings are better then any air unit with micro. Except phoenixes if im not mistaken. Haven't tried it out. But Vikings even rape mutas with good micro and +1 atk.
P.S. It seems also that carriers have smaller range. Not sure though. In BW the range was EPIC.
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Meh, there isn't a real safe tech route to carriers. Imo you can't afford carriers from 2 bases, you need way too much gas cos a low amount of carriers won't cut besides speed void rays or void rays in general are as awesome as carriers if you can produce from 2 stargates. They do sick damage, cost less resources, are available much faster and way more mobile. That said, I wouldn't get carriers just for the sake of getting carriers when void rays do the job aswell and probably better. I have to admit, I just went carriers once in a 1v1 It was fun but if you make it into the very late game I found void rays to be more versatile.
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United States112 Posts
I'm a 600 point diamond random player, and I got totally waxed by a protoss player who went 2 base carrier/zealot/stalker against my 4 base roach/hydra/corruptor army. I was extremely surprised at how poorly my corruptors fared against a stack of carriers.
I thought I was playing a game where I could max out, expand over the map, and crush his army when he was forced to move out, but this plan totally didn't work. My best guess is that you should go into heavy pressure mode when you see the fleet beacon.
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EPT
