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I somewhat agree with floop and don't get why immortals aren't liked more. Basically they are just more efficient stalkers at anything on ground. A stalker does 13 dmg to a marauder, a immortal does 49... almost 4 times as much, and this goes way above 4 times as much if there are some upgrades involved, ie take a 2 attack upgraded immortal/stalker vs a 2 armor upgraded marauder...
Immortal does 57, stalker does 13.
So for only double the cost you can get about 4 times the damage output (considering there are always marauders to shoot at). You also get more the double the durability.. Hardened shield works or you get EMP'ed and it's 200 hp vs 80...
The problem of not being able to shoot up hardly matters... You'll have enough stalkers to deal with banshee's early on and templar do a great job later on. Same thing with raven's, in fact immortals aren't effected by PDD so thats only better. As for not being able to shoot medivacs, that's not really a issue as you'll have enough stalkers do hit them a bit if needed and during battle they aren't really a priority target.
The only issue is them having less speed and range then stalkers but immortals being better on all accounts is a fair tradeoff for that.
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On September 11 2010 10:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Immortals are freaking awesome. Their higher hp makes them more microable, shield regen + hardened shields makes them last forever, 50 damage +5 per grade to armored makes them completely annihilate anything armored in seconds, they're only 4 food for an absolutely insane unit, and they're very massable with 250/100 cost.
Yes, pure immortal has issues vs bio. However, marines are well dealt with by having just a couple sentries with guardian shield, and then later, storm. Marauders do well in an open confrontation but if there's zealots in there immortals can unleash their ridiculous damage while zealots absorb the hits.
Immortals also transition wonderfully vs mech armies, so as the game progresses you'll be glad you made immortals and have robos to make more.
As for EMP, it only puts terran on an even footing at best. If you have HT with feedback it's unlikely they'll get to use any, and lord knows they need to in order to live.
250/100 is expensive.
And for an "insane unit," you acknowledge that they need Zealot and Sentry support. Hardened Shield is overrated. It's good against Tanks and Thors, but those aren't used too often. You could say that they are good since they preclude these units viability, but that's about it.
Against Marauders, Stim evens it out. It takes 4 shots to kill 2 Marauders and it takes 10 to kill an Immortal (assuming Marauders have Stimmed and Immortals have + 1). Immortals and Unstimmed Marauders shoot at roughly the same speed, meaning that you get about 6 shots to the Immortals 4 shots since one Marauder will die halfway through. But that's assuming an Unstimmed firing rate. Stim increases it by about 50% meaning that's about 9 shots to the Immortals 4, barely leaving the Immortal alive. However, 2 Marauders is actually 50/50 less than an Immortal, has better move speed when Stimmed, has better range, and a Barracks + Tech Lab is actually cheaper than a Robotics Facility by 75 gas.
So which is better? I mean they're basically around the same, whoever uses them better will win out. But one is a tier 1 unit and the other is a tier 2 unit.
On September 11 2010 11:18 Markwerf wrote:
I somewhat agree with floop and don't get why immortals aren't liked more. Basically they are just more efficient stalkers at anything on ground. A stalker does 13 dmg to a marauder, a immortal does 49... almost 4 times as much, and this goes way above 4 times as much if there are some upgrades involved, ie take a 2 attack upgraded immortal/stalker vs a 2 armor upgraded marauder...
Immortal does 57, stalker does 13.
So for only double the cost you can get about 4 times the damage output (considering there are always marauders to shoot at). You also get more the double the durability.. Hardened shield works or you get EMP'ed and it's 200 hp vs 80...
The problem of not being able to shoot up hardly matters... You'll have enough stalkers to deal with banshee's early on and templar do a great job later on. Same thing with raven's, in fact immortals aren't effected by PDD so thats only better. As for not being able to shoot medivacs, that's not really a issue as you'll have enough stalkers do hit them a bit if needed and during battle they aren't really a priority target.
The only issue is them having less speed and range then stalkers but immortals being better on all accounts is a fair tradeoff for that.
You keep saying "have enough Stalkers." It's kind of senseless to defend how good a unit is by saying that you'll have some other unit.
Here is the thing.
Marauder > Stalker >= Marines.
Marines > Immortals >= Marauders.
But Stalkers have Blink that makes them very, very good tactically, and Immortals are made from Robotics Facilities that are 50/100 more than a Gateway.
The benefits of what happens under an EMP and PDD would make the Immortal much more favorable if not for the simple fact that it's Raven + Marine or Ghost + Marine, and you're typically not going to want to use Immortals here for that fact.
Immortals are really a Tier 1 unit that is somehow placed in Tier 2. It's like if you could pay 200 minerals for a double sized Zealot that came with charge, but you had to build it out of a Robotics Facility. It's just difficult to justify something that is so marginally closer to a lower tier unit when you are getting it out of a higher tier structure.
They are just okay.
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@whateversstupid
Comparing the immortal to the marauder is pointless.. we all know the marauder beats any armored toss unit cost effectively, thats why zealots are key...
Also hardened shield is not only good against tanks & thors it's also fantastic against marauders. Taking less damage from them is crucial.
Also its always important to take other units into account when judging a unit. The game is about army vs army not about unit vs unit afterall...
I simply state that immortals are better then stalkers against pure bio, with the exception of mass marine (which is easily countered by colossi). As a result I think it's better to always go with a robo bay instead of mass warpgates.
Immortals are about even with stalkers against marines (same dps roughly same hitpoints) and better against anything else.
Coming from the robo bay is hardly an issue because the robo bay is needed for observers anyway and actually spends money faster then warpgates so yes it's more expensive but you need it anyway, might as well get it at the first viable oppurtunity.
Warpgate = 1 stalker every 32 secs = 235 mineral / min
Robo = 1 immortal every 55 secs = 272 mineral / min
Not too mention the robo bay is a great target for chronoboost.
Blink is also a non-issue... you only want to get that in 1 in 10 games against terran maybe, there are too many other more important things to get first. And if you are forced to mass stalker you arent happy...
The only thing that matters really is that immortals + stalker is better then pure stalker in virtually any situation against terran, ergo getting the robo bay early is a pretty good move as you need it anyway (with the exception of stargate builds sometimes). The faster you have it the faster you can get a obs to tell if you can macro hardcore or need to cut probes etc.
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Unfortunately I don't have time to read all of the replies here at the moment but I'll add my thoughts and contribution to the topic.
A couple weeks ago (>MLG Raleigh) my PvT was at such a terrible state I just ignored it.
I have been doing more FE vs Terran recently to great success. Haven't really experimented (felt safe) other than on Xelnaga, Metal, LT, and Scrap.
My Build:
9 pylon (>scout for proxy)
12 gate
14 gas
15-16 pylon (depending on scout, can cut a probe if needed)
17-18 gate
19-20 2nd gas
-First stalker and Warp gate are Chrono boosted. I usually use 2 chronoboosts total on my warpgate, 3 if I sense severe pressure.
-Sentry after stalker, then a Zealot. I secure watchtower(s) with my initial scouting probe and first stalker. After Zealot finishes your Warp gate should be done.
Nexus is usually right at 30 supply.
I throw down my robo after my nexus while continuing sentry production. And then 2 more gateways as soon as minerals allow.
~~~~~~~~~~
Basically at this position you should be extremely comfortable. I have defended 3 rax pressure without having to pull probes. I get my 3rd gas as soon as possible and 4th eventually. First observer and robo bay asap is pretty key when you feel safe.
From your observer you should have a grasp on what you are going to do. I have not lost a game after defending an early pressure attack with this build. Unless the Terran is doing extremely hard turtling the 2-3 colossus timing push will crush him, as usually he'll be inbetween adequate tanks or vikings.
I always go ahead and have my council built before I move out and am ready to get blink or charge(depending on map/unit comp from opponent). If you're not going to be able to break his turtle then obviously don't over commit. Sit back and get storm and upgrades.
Map will dictate how you can gain advantage.
i.e) On LT I favor heavy colossus + stalker (w/ blink) and abusing the side of terran's base.
But however I would recommend preparing Storm, Stargates (Usually phoenix to deal with tanks + combat drops. // Void Rays later if air dominance), (Warp prism speed), as they will be needed if the game can potentially draw out.)
I'm going out the door right this second when I get back hopefully I'll remember to continue this and add in a replay. (Perhaps create my own thread).
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I watched your replays and your stuff seems pretty well timed out. Grats. I'll now be testing it on ladder to see what results I can get for myself.
Side note: Tip to OP don't post replays of yourself offensive gg'ing someone t.t its pretty rude.
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I've been roflstomping Terrans ever since I started using this strategy. I think I'm relying on this too much though, because I usually lose against Terrans if I DON'T do this.
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On September 11 2010 12:14 whateversclever wrote:
250/100 is expensive.
And for an "insane unit," you acknowledge that they need Zealot and Sentry support. Hardened Shield is overrated. It's good against Tanks and Thors, but those aren't used too often. You could say that they are good since they preclude these units viability, but that's about it.
Against Marauders, Stim evens it out. It takes 4 shots to kill 2 Marauders and it takes 10 to kill an Immortal (assuming Marauders have Stimmed and Immortals have + 1). Immortals and Unstimmed Marauders shoot at roughly the same speed, meaning that you get about 6 shots to the Immortals 4 shots since one Marauder will die halfway through. But that's assuming an Unstimmed firing rate. Stim increases it by about 50% meaning that's about 9 shots to the Immortals 4, barely leaving the Immortal alive. However, 2 Marauders is actually 50/50 less than an Immortal, has better move speed when Stimmed, has better range, and a Barracks + Tech Lab is actually cheaper than a Robotics Facility by 75 gas.
So which is better? I mean they're basically around the same, whoever uses them better will win out. But one is a tier 1 unit and the other is a tier 2 unit.
10 shots to kill an immortal? I'm assuming you are talking about after an EMP, but then you are just saying that 2 marauders with ghost support can kill an immortal.
Without the ghost, it takes 21 shots (considering the 1 armor on immortals) for marauders to kill an immortal. As you said, 2 marauders get 9 shots off in the stim/+1 situation - that isn't even enough to drain the shields. Immortals definitely beat stimmed marauders for cost if they have +1 attack.
Even with an EMP, as you just showed, marauders aren't extremely cost effective against immortals, it's more of an even trade.
Since I need a robobay anyway for an observer, immortals are a great way to survive until I tech up to HT - and at that point, I love having them around as another juicy EMP target instead of my HTs. Collosi might be better against a bioball, but that delays the tech up to HT.
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On September 11 2010 22:47 Agh wrote:
Unfortunately I don't have time to read all of the replies here at the moment but I'll add my thoughts and contribution to the topic.
A couple weeks ago (>MLG Raleigh) my PvT was at such a terrible state I just ignored it.
I have been doing more FE vs Terran recently to great success. Haven't really experimented (felt safe) other than on Xelnaga, Metal, LT, and Scrap.
My Build:
9 pylon (>scout for proxy)
12 gate
14 gas
15-16 pylon (depending on scout, can cut a probe if needed)
17-18 gate
19-20 2nd gas
-First stalker and Warp gate are Chrono boosted. I usually use 2 chronoboosts total on my warpgate, 3 if I sense severe pressure.
-Sentry after stalker, then a Zealot. I secure watchtower(s) with my initial scouting probe and first stalker. After Zealot finishes your Warp gate should be done.
Nexus is usually right at 30 supply.
I throw down my robo after my nexus while continuing sentry production. And then 2 more gateways as soon as minerals allow.
~~~~~~~~~~
Basically at this position you should be extremely comfortable. I have defended 3 rax pressure without having to pull probes. I get my 3rd gas as soon as possible and 4th eventually. First observer and robo bay asap is pretty key when you feel safe.
From your observer you should have a grasp on what you are going to do. I have not lost a game after defending an early pressure attack with this build. Unless the Terran is doing extremely hard turtling the 2-3 colossus timing push will crush him, as usually he'll be inbetween adequate tanks or vikings.
I always go ahead and have my council built before I move out and am ready to get blink or charge(depending on map/unit comp from opponent). If you're not going to be able to break his turtle then obviously don't over commit. Sit back and get storm and upgrades.
Map will dictate how you can gain advantage.
i.e) On LT I favor heavy colossus + stalker (w/ blink) and abusing the side of terran's base.
But however I would recommend preparing Storm, Stargates (Usually phoenix to deal with tanks + combat drops. // Void Rays later if air dominance), (Warp prism speed), as they will be needed if the game can potentially draw out.)
I'm going out the door right this second when I get back hopefully I'll remember to continue this and add in a replay. (Perhaps create my own thread).
Huh, you're getting your 2nd gas much earlier than I do. At present, I'm staying almost entirely on gateway units until I take my third. I've had some trouble holding off MMM timing pushes, so rather than rushing storm, I'm pushing it back so that I can have more zealots, stalkers and especially sentries. I never use collosi. I'd love to see your replays tho. I'd honestly never even considered stargate units after a FE.
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On September 14 2010 04:05 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:47 Agh wrote:
Unfortunately I don't have time to read all of the replies here at the moment but I'll add my thoughts and contribution to the topic.
A couple weeks ago (>MLG Raleigh) my PvT was at such a terrible state I just ignored it.
I have been doing more FE vs Terran recently to great success. Haven't really experimented (felt safe) other than on Xelnaga, Metal, LT, and Scrap.
My Build:
9 pylon (>scout for proxy)
12 gate
14 gas
15-16 pylon (depending on scout, can cut a probe if needed)
17-18 gate
19-20 2nd gas
-First stalker and Warp gate are Chrono boosted. I usually use 2 chronoboosts total on my warpgate, 3 if I sense severe pressure.
-Sentry after stalker, then a Zealot. I secure watchtower(s) with my initial scouting probe and first stalker. After Zealot finishes your Warp gate should be done.
Nexus is usually right at 30 supply.
I throw down my robo after my nexus while continuing sentry production. And then 2 more gateways as soon as minerals allow.
~~~~~~~~~~
Basically at this position you should be extremely comfortable. I have defended 3 rax pressure without having to pull probes. I get my 3rd gas as soon as possible and 4th eventually. First observer and robo bay asap is pretty key when you feel safe.
From your observer you should have a grasp on what you are going to do. I have not lost a game after defending an early pressure attack with this build. Unless the Terran is doing extremely hard turtling the 2-3 colossus timing push will crush him, as usually he'll be inbetween adequate tanks or vikings.
I always go ahead and have my council built before I move out and am ready to get blink or charge(depending on map/unit comp from opponent). If you're not going to be able to break his turtle then obviously don't over commit. Sit back and get storm and upgrades.
Map will dictate how you can gain advantage.
i.e) On LT I favor heavy colossus + stalker (w/ blink) and abusing the side of terran's base.
But however I would recommend preparing Storm, Stargates (Usually phoenix to deal with tanks + combat drops. // Void Rays later if air dominance), (Warp prism speed), as they will be needed if the game can potentially draw out.)
I'm going out the door right this second when I get back hopefully I'll remember to continue this and add in a replay. (Perhaps create my own thread). Huh, you're getting your 2nd gas much earlier than I do. At present, I'm staying almost entirely on gateway units until I take my third. I've had some trouble holding off MMM timing pushes, so rather than rushing storm, I'm pushing it back so that I can have more zealots, stalkers and especially sentries. I never use collosi. I'd love to see your replays tho. I'd honestly never even considered stargate units after a FE.
Vs 1/1/1 I like to go blink stalkers right into carriers as my transition. It's a lot of fun and extremely strong since you're basically shoving your eco lead down T's throat by making carriers.
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I have to retract most of the scepticism I had about this build earlier. After getting the timings down I found that this works well vs almost anything, especially the standard 1 base shenanigans that terran try to pull off by doing double mule early and massing up for a timing push.
The only thing I have had problems against is a terran that does 2-3 rax with only addon on first rax and pushes really fast with maybe 10 of his scvs also and bunker rushes my nat with some marauder/marine before the 4-5 gate gets up and running. Also gas before rax banshee rushes have been doing a decent ammount of damage unless I can cripple them early on.
But yeah I love how if terran tries to go for a late earlygame timing then he just gets outmassed by this build. He needs to either expand fast himself or do some quirky tech timing alternatively an all in.
Btw I also get mys econd gas pretty fast for the ability to get up a fast observer and still stay decent in stalker/ sentry count. I usually transition into templar vs marine heavy with medivacs but colossus vs ghost or marauder heavy builds. But then again you can do pretty much whatever you want if the terran lets you get the expo up uncontested. Once I did the special tactics version and went 7 gate all in off of 2 base ><. It worked because he did a greedy expansion.
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Yea the way to go vs aggressive 3rax seems to be ditch the expo. Similar situations in BW where you went expo+robo and you simply don't have enough units vs mass attack.
Cloak banshee attack timing is ~8min. Gas before rax is surely faster.
34robo with build Markwerf showed makes for ~7:25ob boosted.
So there is a bit of room for 3rd gate before robo, but not enough so my previous stance on it remains the same. The place for 3gate later robo seems to be if you see marauder early which means less gas for banshee.
If you are sure of early attack go 4gate, but not likely you will scout that.
2gate expo robo gets ob ~8min with around same units as solid production 1gate expo 3gate, so its the middle way.
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On September 11 2010 22:47 Agh wrote:
Unfortunately I don't have time to read all of the replies here at the moment but I'll add my thoughts and contribution to the topic.
A couple weeks ago (>MLG Raleigh) my PvT was at such a terrible state I just ignored it.
I have been doing more FE vs Terran recently to great success. Haven't really experimented (felt safe) other than on Xelnaga, Metal, LT, and Scrap.
My Build:
9 pylon (>scout for proxy)
12 gate
14 gas
15-16 pylon (depending on scout, can cut a probe if needed)
17-18 gate
19-20 2nd gas
-First stalker and Warp gate are Chrono boosted. I usually use 2 chronoboosts total on my warpgate, 3 if I sense severe pressure.
-Sentry after stalker, then a Zealot. I secure watchtower(s) with my initial scouting probe and first stalker. After Zealot finishes your Warp gate should be done.
Nexus is usually right at 30 supply.
I throw down my robo after my nexus while continuing sentry production. And then 2 more gateways as soon as minerals allow.
~~~~~~~~~~
Basically at this position you should be extremely comfortable. I have defended 3 rax pressure without having to pull probes. I get my 3rd gas as soon as possible and 4th eventually. First observer and robo bay asap is pretty key when you feel safe.
From your observer you should have a grasp on what you are going to do. I have not lost a game after defending an early pressure attack with this build. Unless the Terran is doing extremely hard turtling the 2-3 colossus timing push will crush him, as usually he'll be inbetween adequate tanks or vikings.
I always go ahead and have my council built before I move out and am ready to get blink or charge(depending on map/unit comp from opponent). If you're not going to be able to break his turtle then obviously don't over commit. Sit back and get storm and upgrades.
Map will dictate how you can gain advantage.
i.e) On LT I favor heavy colossus + stalker (w/ blink) and abusing the side of terran's base.
But however I would recommend preparing Storm, Stargates (Usually phoenix to deal with tanks + combat drops. // Void Rays later if air dominance), (Warp prism speed), as they will be needed if the game can potentially draw out.)
I'm going out the door right this second when I get back hopefully I'll remember to continue this and add in a replay. (Perhaps create my own thread).
This is _THE_ build to use against terran. (i assume u meant core at 17-18)
Tester showcases the power of 1-gate expand in his GSL matches.
Early 2nd gas, Nexus -> Robo -> 3 more gates.
While pumping out sentries.
You should all try this.
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I'm trying to incorporate a faster 2nd gas into my build as well. The thing is that's it's an illusion delaying your 2nd gas will let you be much faster on your expo, protoss hits saturation so damn fast that a 2nd gas seems more optimal. Staying on 1 gas too long means you will just have 23 probes on minerals which mine at almos the same speed as 20. At the moment I throw down my 2nd gas straight after the nexus but possible before it can be good as well. Any gas you get can be put into more sentries which also lets you have more minerals..
The two biggest problems to this build imo are a 3 rax medivac push and a raven + banshees + marine push.
The 3 rax medivac push hits at about 8:45 with 4 medivacs, 3 marauders, about 20 marines and stim + shield + shells. I simply don't know a way to counter this while having an expo, you are just behind in tech usually and the stimkiting will just kill you at this point. The only options seem to be a very fast colossus or great forcefield usage. The first is quite difficult and the 2nd is so as well as you will likely not have that many sentries.
The banshee/raven/marine push is difficult imo because it's hard to know that it's coming as the raven usually scares off your obs. It's just very hard to determine if they are cloak rushing for harass or just going allin marine-banshee, both require quite difficult answers actually.
Also where can I find those tester replays?
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On September 14 2010 14:38 Markwerf wrote:
The two biggest problems to this build imo are a 3 rax medivac push and a raven + banshees + marine push.
The 3 rax medivac push hits at about 8:45 with 4 medivacs, 3 marauders, about 20 marines and stim + shield + shells. I simply don't know a way to counter this while having an expo, you are just behind in tech usually and the stimkiting will just kill you at this point. The only options seem to be a very fast colossus or great forcefield usage. The first is quite difficult and the 2nd is so as well as you will likely not have that many sentries.
The banshee/raven/marine push is difficult imo because it's hard to know that it's coming as the raven usually scares off your obs. It's just very hard to determine if they are cloak rushing for harass or just going allin marine-banshee, both require quite difficult answers actually.
When I first started using this build, I used to have no problem with those timing pushes. Then, as I started refining my tech timings after discussing ideas in this thread, I found that I actually started losing to them a lot more. Upon reflecting, I think that the difference is that I used to not tech past charge/blink at all. I'd just MASS T1 gateway units and take my third and fourth bases very quickly. I wouldn't have any problems in the mid-game, but I really suffered in the late-game if T managed to stay alive and protect expansions through my throwing 200/200 armies at him. Storm seemed necessary, so I started trying to get it on time, and I started losing in the mid-game.
Having more experience with the build now, I think the answer might be delaying tech. Don't worry about getting storm quickly at all. I've been trying out fully saturating my main and natural, pumping a bunch of sentries to complement my zealot-stalker force, taking my third, and then finally teching storm when I'm past 100 food, and it seems very strong. By delaying tech, you can have a lot of sentries for that mid-game push that seems so strong. It will probably take a long time before we settle on optimal tech timings.
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On September 14 2010 23:24 kcdc wrote:
When I first started using this build, I used to have no problem with those timing pushes. Then, as I started refining my tech timings after discussing ideas in this thread, I found that I actually started losing to them a lot more. Upon reflecting, I think that the difference is that I used to not tech past charge/blink at all. I'd just MASS T1 gateway units and take my third and fourth bases very quickly. I wouldn't have any problems in the mid-game, but I really suffered in the late-game if T managed to stay alive and protect expansions through my throwing 200/200 armies at him. Storm seemed necessary, so I started trying to get it on time, and I started losing in the mid-game.
Having more experience with the build now, I think the answer might be delaying tech. Don't worry about getting storm quickly at all. I've been trying out fully saturating my main and natural, pumping a bunch of sentries to complement my zealot-stalker force, taking my third, and then finally teching storm when I'm past 100 food, and it seems very strong. By delaying tech, you can have a lot of sentries for that mid-game push that seems so strong. It will probably take a long time before we settle on optimal tech timings.
This is helpful as I play a similar style of delaying tech, thanks. Do you go for forge upgrades at about the same point as storm or much sooner? I've been trying to get that right after charge/blink or at around the same point.
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Saw a brief complaint about immortals-- and needed to point out people that, if you do the math, they are MUCH better than Stalkers at dealing with a mixed MMM ball. Sure, they're not cost-effective versus marauders, but they're far closer to it than Stalkers are-- even with EMP.
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On September 15 2010 01:27 Dash27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 23:24 kcdc wrote:
When I first started using this build, I used to have no problem with those timing pushes. Then, as I started refining my tech timings after discussing ideas in this thread, I found that I actually started losing to them a lot more. Upon reflecting, I think that the difference is that I used to not tech past charge/blink at all. I'd just MASS T1 gateway units and take my third and fourth bases very quickly. I wouldn't have any problems in the mid-game, but I really suffered in the late-game if T managed to stay alive and protect expansions through my throwing 200/200 armies at him. Storm seemed necessary, so I started trying to get it on time, and I started losing in the mid-game.
Having more experience with the build now, I think the answer might be delaying tech. Don't worry about getting storm quickly at all. I've been trying out fully saturating my main and natural, pumping a bunch of sentries to complement my zealot-stalker force, taking my third, and then finally teching storm when I'm past 100 food, and it seems very strong. By delaying tech, you can have a lot of sentries for that mid-game push that seems so strong. It will probably take a long time before we settle on optimal tech timings. This is helpful as I play a similar style of delaying tech, thanks. Do you go for forge upgrades at about the same point as storm or much sooner? I've been trying to get that right after charge/blink or at around the same point.
My upgrade timing has been pretty situation dependent. I definitely prefer starting charge before worrying about upgrades. The question would be whether to take your third nexus or to build temp archives before forges. I might lean toward a single forge for upgrades after twilight council. A second forge should be added after storm is online.
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Well just massing is definately better with some earlier pushes where teching too hard can be risky.
Against a push with stim and medivacs you need SOMETHING that works against the kiting army though.
Mass gateway units can work only with some great forcefields because even on 1.5X the terran economy you are not going to beat a kiting terran army. I find it very difficult on maps with open expansions to forcefield effectively enough really, especially metalopolis and xel naga caverns.
Instead i'm trying to add the robo a bit earlier so I can obs a bit faster, that way I can add a colossus just in time against a heavy marine based push (fast MMM or banshee/marine both are).
Though colossi aren't really great against terran they can manage to defend an expansion or get an expansion up faster then terran which makes their investment worth it imo. Just don't get more then 2-3 and don't upgrade range.
Maps like lost temple defending the expansion is fairly easy regardless of what they do, though often they choose to expo themselves there.
As for forge, it's definately much more important to get storm before attack upgrades. Getting more then 1 forge is also fairly crap, you only need one forge really because upgrades aren't that fantastic really. Attack upgrades are always ok but the primary damage dealers are your templars so the attack upgrade doesn't even do that much. Armor upgrades aren't the best with protoss offcourse so I never see the need to go double forge. Just go 1 attack then 1 armor then 2 attack 2 armor etc and it's fine, with chronoboost you should have plenty upgrades then. Instead of a 2nd forge i'd go with just more units really.
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On September 15 2010 01:34 Ndugu wrote:
Saw a brief complaint about immortals-- and needed to point out people that, if you do the math, they are MUCH better than Stalkers at dealing with a mixed MMM ball. Sure, they're not cost-effective versus marauders, but they're far closer to it than Stalkers are-- even with EMP.
Immortals with +1 Attack actually become cost-effective against Stimmed Marauders again. It goes down to a two-shot kill instead of three, mirroring the 50% attack rate increase of stims.
The issue with Immortals has never been their stats though. Going by pure numbers, they're way better than Stalkers against ground compositions. The problem is that they're clunky and awkward to use thanks to their mediocre speed and short range, and they need a specialized production facility.
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I too like keeping the build low tech and just overwhelming the terran's pushes. The only circumstance I wouldnt continue producing alot of tier 1 units is if I knew he had taken an expansion as well in response to mine. If that is the case I would most likely upgrade zealot legs right away then drop an archives. Zealot legs + high templar are really necessary in this matchup I feel. Being able to defend an expansion with 1 templar, maybe a couple warp ins and a couple cannons, is really awesome. I used to have a ton of trouble defending my expansions as toss because of drops, but templar with both upgrades are great for that.
I hope Agh makes another post of his build because if the timings work at 12 gate I think it might make the very early stages even easier.
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EPT
