EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 27
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dbizzle
United States395 Posts
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 18 2010 10:46 rezoacken wrote: Yeah but stalkers are very expensive and for the timing you stated 3 seems fine for me, I might have 2 more and 2 zealot less, which make 2Zealot and this isn't much either. Stalkers number increase as soon as my 4Gates and expansion is up and running which is around the 6:45 mark. Terran's all in with bio + scv is the biggest threat for sure but you can bring your own probes to make it even. Or also saccing the expansion is not that bad, 15SCV not mining for 1min (in the case you just pull back and block ramp) might be worth losing 400min. I'm not saying FE never lose, that is certainly not the case, I'm just stating that I really believe this is a viable build that CAN survive terran pushes. You have to make adjustments, good response and still have good micro to have a correct responds to the most threatening pushes. It means I don't believe a random terran sees it and then say "ok i'll just do this and I win 100%" (might be on some maps though like sow and DQ), but there definitly good responses to it. Ah okay, I didn't know you got your warp gates up 15 seconds earlier than kcdc in the replay. (Not to bash on kcdc, his are the only replays I have) That explains why you have a lot more stuff!  It is defintely smart to rush for the warpgates, since those mean "I can survive". What I am really trying to get across is this. Protoss trains units from 1 gateway until the 6:30 - 7:00 minute mark, Terran trains units from 3 barracks until the ~6:00-6:30 minute mark (since he didnt proxy them in front of the Protoss' base and has to walk there) This means that Terran will always have more units until warp gates kick in. This is the timing to abuse. After the first warp-ins have occured it gets so much harder since the time needed for ressources to appear in front of the to be defended nexus goes down dramatically and Protoss units - in unison - deal with Terran units quite well.(unit-for-unit, cost for cost is something else, speaking proper direct engagement with sentry use)Of course, the SCV all in will kill the FE. But who cares? The point of an attack is to get an advantage, if I sacrifice all economy I have to kill everything. And Protoss love to FF their ramp when not able to survive. My point is that, by abusing the low amount of production capability while the Protoss is getting up his economy, a smart Terran that is aware of timings can just waltz in the Protoss FE with a small set of units (and maybe 3 SCVs to block the zealots even further, that are already slowed by conc) and reduce the Protoss army which will lead to having to reinforce above the ramp (what good are units that only arrive with 0%-25% of their HP) or pull all probes, which with smart kiting (focusing down the army units in the Protoss ball) quickly leads to major losses for Protoss. I am not saying that his build is 100% not viable, just the experience of the players in this thread probably shows otherwise. However, noone can ignore that it will have a vulnerable period of time where a 3rax build that is designed to get units out on the field, will crush it in an open engagement. The best bet to survive is probably heavy sentry use, trying to block the incoming MM with probes and pray to god that the warp gates are about to kick in. On September 18 2010 17:51 sleepingdog wrote: not helpful just to say "something wrong with play" the push hit me at a point, where the economy was "just" about to kick in; if it helps, he went for a very early ghost-academy, he didn't just mass MM from 3 rax and then added ghosts....no.....he built the ghost-academy right after the first rax, "then" added two more rax, built two ghosts together with few marauders and many marines and went for it the push hits when I build the observer (nearly ready) while charge is just starting and I have production only out of 3 gates because the additional gates are just building; maybe you are thinking about a different ghost-push, but this push is specifically designed to get ghosts as fast as possible while MM mostly consists of marines for high DPS vs shield-less units but if it's easy to hold off, just tell me which unit-composition kcdc used against you and how he could have such a superior army-size? again, the important points are, that: a) I can produce only out of 3 gates because of robo b) I don't have charge Almost any push that isnt all in can be held as soon as 3 warpgates are running since 3 warpgates with chronoboost > 3rax. (15 second Zealots anyone?). Your best bet is to macro like crazy and keep your stuff spread out (especially sentries since they are key against MM) when you scout ghosts. Floop and I played against this build quiite a few times and I think be both agree that anything that hits after warpgate is pretty much crap against it, even if you macro from 3 rax perfectly / or whatever, since good protoss micro will always come out ahead. On September 18 2010 13:39 kzn wrote: I read through this thread a while ago but I don't remember if there was talk of pure (or heavy) marine all-ins - these have consistently beat me when I try to execute this build, as I dont know what gateway unit composition will beat marines. I'll up replays if it would help, but I doubt I cleanly executed the build in them in any case, so really my question, beyond "did I do the build right" (to which the answer is almost certainly "no, you idiot"), is whether or not there is a modification I need to be making to deal with, say, no-gas marine all-ins or pure marine+stim all-ins. What I can tell you from playing a pure marine all in twice against a guy that does a 2 gas FE is that Sentries are _the_ most important part of your army. The first time I played I was able to overwhelm him with the crazy marine DPS. He said that it was because he forgot the second gas. The second time we played he had 4 Sentries about 4 Stalkers and 6 Zealots (i stupidly hit after Warpgates were operational) and he crushed my push so hard it wasnt even funny. Guardian shield is crucial, with it Stalkers have 3 armor against marines that do 6 damage, a 50% reduction! With guardian shield zealots take 38 marinie shots to kill. Stalkers 54! Without guardian shield its 25 and 32 respectively. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On September 14 2010 12:26 wxwx wrote: This is _THE_ build to use against terran. (i assume u meant core at 17-18) Tester showcases the power of 1-gate expand in his GSL matches. Early 2nd gas, Nexus -> Robo -> 3 more gates. While pumping out sentries. You should all try this. I beat a 1440 terran with this. I can confirm that Agh's build is insanely good, but it's very micro intensive against early rushes since you have fewer units than kcdc, meaning you need to make up the difference with good forcefields. | ||
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crun
Poland30 Posts
http://replayfu.com/r/xNgQVn - fresh replay, played ladder here on friend's account here. point out my mistakes, any tips are appreciated. i've tried it before many times in customs vs a good terran and i was unable to defend 3rax push (sometimes with pulling scvs). unfotrunately i cant provide replays :C also threat of possible banshee is just killing me. if i go for quick robo, his 2nd push is going to end the game for sure. if i wait longer (once i have saturated both minerals and like 3-4 gates at least?) banshee is going to end the game as well. goooood i hate terran so much | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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ahcho00
United States220 Posts
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jay`t
United States2 Posts
This build and its variations give me the most trouble in PvT. When I 3rax bio push against it, it always feels as if the Protoss player has just gotten their economy kicking into high gear, and they can produce the units necessary to defend. Early pokes are held off, and unless I can have some great drops, generally the P do well against me. My question: Is this build hampered by the Zealot build time change? There are a few early T timing attacks that the P player always seems to have enough units to counter - the 1 rine 3 maurader 1 hellion push is countered by stalkers and zealots, and the fifty food push is usually held off rather easily. I realize that bnet is down and that people cannot test this immediately. I just thought I'd ask the question and see people's thoughts on this build and early Terran timing pushes after they've played a few post-patch games. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On September 22 2010 04:12 jay`t wrote: Registered to post in this thread. Terran player here. This build and its variations give me the most trouble in PvT. When I 3rax bio push against it, it always feels as if the Protoss player has just gotten their economy kicking into high gear, and they can produce the units necessary to defend. Early pokes are held off, and unless I can have some great drops, generally the P do well against me. My question: Is this build hampered by the Zealot build time change? There are a few early T timing attacks that the P player always seems to have enough units to counter - the 1 rine 3 maurader 1 hellion push is countered by stalkers and zealots, and the fifty food push is usually held off rather easily. I realize that bnet is down and that people cannot test this immediately. I just thought I'd ask the question and see people's thoughts on this build and early Terran timing pushes after they've played a few post-patch games. I've never really felt like I executed the build perfectly smoothly at early points, but I don't think in terms of early vulnerability the zealot change will have much impact - there's already about 5-10 seconds between your first Zealot finishing and your Stalker starting, and I'm skeptical that this change will be noticed much once people are operating with more than 2 warpgates. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 22 2010 04:12 jay`t wrote: My question: Is this build hampered by the Zealot build time change? Without having had a chance to test much, I'll say yes in a general sense since the build relies heavily on zealots, but I don't think the change will have a big impact on the early game. In the early going, P will want to rely more on stalkers with just a few zealots for meatshield. I don't think the zealot nerf will make the FE much easier to bust early. But as the unit counts get higher, P will want to rely increasingly on zealots, and that production will now require additional gateways. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The problem with this build and why I'm using it increasingly less is that a ~8:30 MMM push is near impossible to hold. The expansion is may theoretically just about paid off then but because of expanding you have a severe tech disadvantage. There is simply no way to get any tech out that is good with dealing with stim+marine shield at that time (which T can just get at 8:40) with this build without making a blind guess. You need to go for a quick observer somewhere in the build but at the earliest that will arrive at the T base by the 7:00 mark at which point you are already too late to get either charge or colossi before the push. Charge in time is possible but that simply isn't usefull against all pushes. | ||
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channery
United States15 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
This strat is really hard to beat, it's my macro that ends up doing away with me if I lose with it ^_^ . +1 for this strat working, have tweaked it a little to my liking, but roughly the same thing. This is after the zealot nurf btw, I haven't noticed it changing much, except a few of the timings. Trump: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151044 Drewbie: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151045 | ||
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
On September 22 2010 05:03 Markwerf wrote: The zealot build time won't matter a whole lot I think. Before warpgate you only make 1 or 2 zealots anyway of which one is during the construction of the cybercore usually. Ie. for this it won't really matter. After warpgate I usually found you have a slight overproduction anyway so getting zealots a bit slower shouldn't be too problematic. It's less important to scout in time and the tank push is basically out of the equation now so all the build has to do is come up with a way to deal with both a MMM push and some kind of banshee play. I'm gonna test some forge builds after the patch as with the early tank threat out of the way there might be a possiblity that skipping the robo and just getting a forge with a cannon at both bases might be enough to help against both banshee pushes and MMM play. The problem with this build and why I'm using it increasingly less is that a ~8:30 MMM push is near impossible to hold. The expansion is may theoretically just about paid off then but because of expanding you have a severe tech disadvantage. There is simply no way to get any tech out that is good with dealing with stim+marine shield at that time (which T can just get at 8:40) with this build without making a blind guess. You need to go for a quick observer somewhere in the build but at the earliest that will arrive at the T base by the 7:00 mark at which point you are already too late to get either charge or colossi before the push. Charge in time is possible but that simply isn't usefull against all pushes. I think you're just worried about your army not making up to the 1 base 3 rax type things vs this build. Your army may not acutally be able to fight one on one with that MMM push. In fact, it probably won't. It's that you can constantly reinforce your units because your macro is supposed to be just that much better. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:41 whoopadeedoo wrote: It's probably been discussed in the past 27 pages, but I can't find it right now. How do you deal with 1/1/1 with FE? The two things that crush my PvT FE is 1/1/1 and two timing windows for terran to scv+marine rush (early) or MMM a couple minutes after my expo is done. Posting a replay of you losing would probably be a lot more beneficial, I don't know what you are doing wrong without watching you perform it. | ||
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Weasel-
Canada1556 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
Basically, to deal with 1/1/1, do I need HTs or phoenixes, or is it possible to handle it with gateway units? | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:56 whoopadeedoo wrote: I'll save a replay next time. If it helps, what I do most of the time is 1 gate (constantly CBed) until about 28-30 supply (when I have 1-2 zealots and 2-3 stalkers), then I expo. After expo, I'll throw down two more gates and a robo and start taking the second gas on my main. If I spot a 1/1/1, I'll build another ob and go zealots instead of stalkers, but I don't ever seem to be able to tech to HTs for FB fast enough because of gas limitations. Perhaps I need to take gas faster on my expo. Basically, to deal with 1/1/1, do I need HTs or phoenixes, or is it possible to handle it with gateway units? It all depends on what your observer spots. If they have 4+ banashees, I'll throw down a stargate after the robo+2 extra gateways once I feel I can safely, and pump out pheonix at like a 1:2 pheonix/banashee ratio. The important thing is to harass with these until they push out (picking on banashee is actually really easy, they die so fast to pheonix) You can take a 1/1/1 build with pure gateway units/pheonix up to a certain point, but I like teching to colos against a 1/1/1 build. Holding with gateway units + pheonix until you can safely get colos out is pretty easy. I wouldn't try to tech to ht without having colos first, it takes too long imo. But yeah a replay would help, I might have one against trump where he does a 1/1/1 build, sec. Meh I must not of saved it. | ||
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