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Have been doing this FE lately and had good results with it, I like to take 2nd Gaz before Nexus though I find that I'm safer with 4-5 sentry in my army around the 40suuply mark to hold of stim rax pushs. And since sentry or cheap in mineral it goes really well while you are trying to get more production structures.
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ok, I've been playing around with this build a little bit and mostly don't have "that" many problems against 3-rax-pushes
nevertheless I just lost hardcore against a bio+EMP-timing push (no replay because it was such a roflpwnage that I...well...kinda "rage-deleted" the rep); I admit that my army was pretty clumped, but if you split your forces that early you simply get owned by concussive-hit and run;
I know, I know, it's hard to give advice without a replay, but since I didn't even have the slightest bit of a chance I'd like to know what you would do against such timing push; sentries are useless, stalkers without shield die like flies; the push hit me before charge was ready - since he wasn't attacking and I couldn't get useful scouting information I "had" to build a robo after 3-gate to not die vs banshees.....I don't see how I could cut the robo out since I need the scout and cloak would definitely kill me; more problematic, even if I were able to somehowe survive, he already has the counter to the templar on the field;
but still, although we had pretty much the same army-size, I don't think I killed more than 2-3 marines, so currently I don't see how I could survive early EMP with FE at all
p.s. balance-whine: I don't see why EMP should remove protoss-shields "at all" - considering that terran does mostly fine without ghosts anyways really makes me ask: WHY?
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I am losing to blue flame hellion drops with this build. They drop three in my base then send two to my expansion and I struggle to keep my probes alive. Happen to anyone else ?
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On September 18 2010 04:54 sleepingdog wrote:
ok, I've been playing around with this build a little bit and mostly don't have "that" many problems against 3-rax-pushes
nevertheless I just lost hardcore against a bio+EMP-timing push (no replay because it was such a roflpwnage that I...well...kinda "rage-deleted" the rep); I admit that my army was pretty clumped, but if you split your forces that early you simply get owned by concussive-hit and run;
I know, I know, it's hard to give advice without a replay, but since I didn't even have the slightest bit of a chance I'd like to know what you would do against such timing push; sentries are useless, stalkers without shield die like flies; the push hit me before charge was ready - since he wasn't attacking and I couldn't get useful scouting information I "had" to build a robo after 3-gate to not die vs banshees.....I don't see how I could cut the robo out since I need the scout and cloak would definitely kill me; more problematic, even if I were able to somehowe survive, he already has the counter to the templar on the field;
but still, although we had pretty much the same army-size, I don't think I killed more than 2-3 marines, so currently I don't see how I could survive early EMP with FE at all
p.s. balance-whine: I don't see why EMP should remove protoss-shields "at all" - considering that terran does mostly fine without ghosts anyways really makes me ask: WHY?
You screwed up. The ghost 3 rax push is even weaker because it comes so late, so you'll have your economy really moving along at that point. Trust me, I used to think that the ghost/stim 3 rax would rape this but KCDC easily held it off when I tried it. Something is wrong with your play.
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I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this)
Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran.
However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells.
Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs.
So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive.
I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units).
I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field.
I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing.
So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : )
edit:
Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push.
http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/
He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead.
But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder.
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On August 10 2010 23:15 Kinmaul wrote:
Try to keep an eye on his gas as well; no gas (or very late, he might gas to trick you and then cancel once he kills the probe) means marine all-in. When that probe dies I would send another to keep an eye on his ramp. No/very late gas by the time your first probe dies (unless you lost it super early) AND no rax add-on scouted by your second probe means the terran is either a noob or he's going for a marine all-in.
Uh...
What? No gas can also mean FE, a build I do constantly.... I don't really consider myself a noob.
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I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this)
I don't know, just tested it with YABOT and at 7:00 I have 4Z 3S 4 Sent 22food this looks quite ok if you even add probes to hold 3M 11Marines 17food. And 25 probes.
Sure I had to cut down probes around 23-24 to put down gates and make units but that's normal if you feel your opponent is going bio and therefore may be very agressive.
By the way I do the 2Gaz version for sentries, I feel I can do more with 16Minerals 6Gaz than with 19Minerals 3Gaz, and stalker are very very expensive compared to sentry + zealots. But maybe that's just me.
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On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder.
It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am.
Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing.
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On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing.
If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already.
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On September 18 2010 08:04 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing. If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already.
When did I brag about my rating?
You said you can't see this working anywhere above 1k+, I was simply stating it's my standard BO vs terrans.
Go flame somewhere else, we don't need posters like you on this forum.
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On September 18 2010 07:49 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) I don't know, just tested it with YABOT and at 7:00 I have 4Z 3S 4 Sent 22food this looks quite ok if you even add probes to hold 3M 11Marines 17food. And 25 probes. Sure I had to cut down probes around 23-24 to put down gates and make units but that's normal if you feel your opponent is going bio and therefore may be very agressive. By the way I do the 2Gaz version for sentries, I feel I can do more with 16Minerals 6Gaz than with 19Minerals 3Gaz, and stalker are very very expensive compared to sentry + zealots. But maybe that's just me.
I really like how you altered the build! A practice partner of mine also does a 2 gas 1 gate FE which works beautifully since against MM(M) there really is only 2 things (assuming equal army size) Sentries and tier 3. He just crushes me by splitting my army in a choke, while guardian shielding. This makes half of my army unable to kite, and the other half just run around being quite useless. Also the guardian shields reduce the DPS source of my army by 33%, quite a hefty blow.
Also cutting probes is, imo, detrimental. I can remember TLO saying in one of his and HomerJ's theory series (german only, sorry ^^), that when getting up a fast expansion it is good to focus on army units, priorizing them over the usual "constantly produced workers" since your main goal is to survive and even if you dont push eco 100% you will still come out ahead if the other player doesnt expand (in which case he usually wont be agressive (enough to necessitate worker cutting))
However, 3 Stalkers isnt amazing, and while it should work much better than what kcdc did in the replays he provided (i imagine he mustve refined the build until now) I still think good micro and if all else fails, bringing in 15 SCVs should bring an end to the Protoss expansion. The situation is very probably not cut and dry and relies heavily on timings / scouting and most importantly with such a low amount of units, micro.
On September 18 2010 08:18 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 08:04 ChickenLips wrote:On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing. If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already. When did I brag about my rating? You said you can't see this working anywhere above 1k+, I was simply stating it's my standard BO vs terrans. Go flame somewhere else, we don't need posters like you on this forum.
I actually went quite light on the flame and intentionally held off personally attacking you since this is a strategy thread.
I wrote that most terrans under 1k dont understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE, which i then explained. How you translate that into "doesnt work above 1k diamond" is actually mind blowingly stupid and even if you thought that you couldve at least TRIED to explain why you disagree with my opinion.
There is no x build will not work under / over y rating. Measuring skill or strategies in ratings is retarded. Ratings dont mean a lot and are very unreliable in assessing a players' understanding of strategy. (Just look at Capoch sitting around 1.6k points) Unfortunately there is no good way in assessing those and I tried to get across an approximation of the average player that this build will work quite well against since he is still stuck in the i build x, then i attack when i have x and y mindset without properly adjusting or even completely re-thinking their gameplay according to what their opponent is doing.
If you think that I flamed in my previous post, you obviously have never been flamed, and while your profile allows some sweet opportunities to do so, I find the time is better spent elsewhere.
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On September 18 2010 08:48 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 07:49 rezoacken wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) I don't know, just tested it with YABOT and at 7:00 I have 4Z 3S 4 Sent 22food this looks quite ok if you even add probes to hold 3M 11Marines 17food. And 25 probes. Sure I had to cut down probes around 23-24 to put down gates and make units but that's normal if you feel your opponent is going bio and therefore may be very agressive. By the way I do the 2Gaz version for sentries, I feel I can do more with 16Minerals 6Gaz than with 19Minerals 3Gaz, and stalker are very very expensive compared to sentry + zealots. But maybe that's just me. I really like how you altered the build! A practice partner of mine also does a 2 gas 1 gate FE which works beautifully since against MM(M) there really is only 2 things (assuming equal army size) Sentries and tier 3. He just crushes me by splitting my army in a choke, while guardian shielding. This makes half of my army unable to kite, and the other half just run around being quite useless. Also the guardian shields reduce the DPS source of my army by 33%, quite a hefty blow. Also cutting probes is, imo, detrimental. I can remember TLO saying in one of his and HomerJ's theory series (german only, sorry ^^), that when getting up a fast expansion it is good to focus on army units, priorizing them over the usual "constantly produced workers" since your main goal is to survive and even if you dont push eco 100% you will still come out ahead if the other player doesnt expand (in which case he usually wont be agressive (enough to necessitate worker cutting)) However, 3 Stalkers isnt amazing, and while it should work much better than what kcdc did in the replays he provided (i imagine he mustve refined the build until now) I still think good micro and if all else fails, bringing in 15 SCVs should bring an end to the Protoss expansion. The situation is very probably not cut and dry and relies heavily on timings / scouting and most importantly with such a low amount of units, micro. Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 08:18 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 08:04 ChickenLips wrote:On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing. If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already. When did I brag about my rating? You said you can't see this working anywhere above 1k+, I was simply stating it's my standard BO vs terrans. Go flame somewhere else, we don't need posters like you on this forum. I actually went quite light on the flame and intentionally held off personally attacking you since this is a strategy thread. I wrote that most terrans under 1k dont understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE, which i then explained. How you translate that into "doesnt work above 1k diamond" is actually mind blowingly stupid and even if you thought that you couldve at least TRIED to explain why you disagree with my opinion. There is no x build will not work under / over y rating. Measuring skill or strategies in ratings is retarded. Ratings dont mean a lot and are very unreliable in assessing a players' understanding of strategy. (Just look at Capoch sitting around 1.6k points) Unfortunately there is no good way in assessing those and I tried to get across an approximation of the average player that this build will work quite well against since he is still stuck in the i build x, then i attack when i have x and y mindset without properly adjusting or even completely re-thinking their gameplay according to what their opponent is doing. If you think that I flamed in my previous post, you obviously have never been flamed, and while your profile allows some sweet opportunities to do so, I find the time is better spent elsewhere.
Most players under 1k don't understand anything that isn't 4 warpgate. There's nothing special about your push. You can micro it well but if your opponent has sentries you won't break them, especially given that warpgates are instant reinforcement vs you walking units across the map. The only scary 3 rax pushes are either scv cutting super early pushes, or pulling mass scv.
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On September 18 2010 09:10 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 08:48 ChickenLips wrote:On September 18 2010 07:49 rezoacken wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) I don't know, just tested it with YABOT and at 7:00 I have 4Z 3S 4 Sent 22food this looks quite ok if you even add probes to hold 3M 11Marines 17food. And 25 probes. Sure I had to cut down probes around 23-24 to put down gates and make units but that's normal if you feel your opponent is going bio and therefore may be very agressive. By the way I do the 2Gaz version for sentries, I feel I can do more with 16Minerals 6Gaz than with 19Minerals 3Gaz, and stalker are very very expensive compared to sentry + zealots. But maybe that's just me. I really like how you altered the build! A practice partner of mine also does a 2 gas 1 gate FE which works beautifully since against MM(M) there really is only 2 things (assuming equal army size) Sentries and tier 3. He just crushes me by splitting my army in a choke, while guardian shielding. This makes half of my army unable to kite, and the other half just run around being quite useless. Also the guardian shields reduce the DPS source of my army by 33%, quite a hefty blow. Also cutting probes is, imo, detrimental. I can remember TLO saying in one of his and HomerJ's theory series (german only, sorry ^^), that when getting up a fast expansion it is good to focus on army units, priorizing them over the usual "constantly produced workers" since your main goal is to survive and even if you dont push eco 100% you will still come out ahead if the other player doesnt expand (in which case he usually wont be agressive (enough to necessitate worker cutting)) However, 3 Stalkers isnt amazing, and while it should work much better than what kcdc did in the replays he provided (i imagine he mustve refined the build until now) I still think good micro and if all else fails, bringing in 15 SCVs should bring an end to the Protoss expansion. The situation is very probably not cut and dry and relies heavily on timings / scouting and most importantly with such a low amount of units, micro. On September 18 2010 08:18 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 08:04 ChickenLips wrote:On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing. If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already. When did I brag about my rating? You said you can't see this working anywhere above 1k+, I was simply stating it's my standard BO vs terrans. Go flame somewhere else, we don't need posters like you on this forum. I actually went quite light on the flame and intentionally held off personally attacking you since this is a strategy thread. I wrote that most terrans under 1k dont understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE, which i then explained. How you translate that into "doesnt work above 1k diamond" is actually mind blowingly stupid and even if you thought that you couldve at least TRIED to explain why you disagree with my opinion. There is no x build will not work under / over y rating. Measuring skill or strategies in ratings is retarded. Ratings dont mean a lot and are very unreliable in assessing a players' understanding of strategy. (Just look at Capoch sitting around 1.6k points) Unfortunately there is no good way in assessing those and I tried to get across an approximation of the average player that this build will work quite well against since he is still stuck in the i build x, then i attack when i have x and y mindset without properly adjusting or even completely re-thinking their gameplay according to what their opponent is doing. If you think that I flamed in my previous post, you obviously have never been flamed, and while your profile allows some sweet opportunities to do so, I find the time is better spent elsewhere. Most players under 1k don't understand anything that isn't 4 warpgate. You're probably right about that  There's nothing special about your push. You can micro it well but if your opponent has sentries you won't break them, especially given that warpgates are instant reinforcement vs you walking units across the map. The only scary 3 rax pushes are either scv cutting super early pushes, or pulling mass scv.
I don't need to break my opponent instantly, I can just dance around his open expansion dealing more damage than I take, since I will only get forcefielded if I commit. And what will kill my army isnt Sentries or Stalkers, its the Zealots, and if I am careful about positioning and attacking angles, I can pretty much avoid ever getting hit by zealots, launching one volley and instantly retreating etc., the protoss has to put his sentries in the front (and they die very quickly) and allow himself to slowly be whittled down if he wants to trap my army. As with any push, there's the defender's advantage and I won't try to break a FE over long walking distances.
Also, this push hits (HAS TO HIT) before the warpgates are operational. This means Protoss is stuck with about 4-5 units that he trained from his gateway until this point and with 3rax I will always have more stuff than Protoss from 1 gateway, thus allowing me to push the army balance even more into my favor, so I can instantly attack non-melee units as they warp in, allowing my amy to remain largely intact.
Not to belittle your testing (i think its awesome that you did that) or anything, but I think you mostly played against this build after the warpgates have kicked in, and I can attest, its a bitch to try to break that. However, by lookin at quite a few replays (by just being frustrated that my 3rax MMM hammer doesnt work on it) I noticed the huge difference in army sizes pre and post-warpgate. Most Terrans want to stay in their base and get the money composition (to quote Day9) but the best thing really is to just start poking at the Protoss with 1 marine and 2 marauders once concussive is done, since he will ALWAYS be behind until he gets more gates up and cannot really defend outside his ramp (unless he pulls 10 probes to get the expo up LOL)
seriously go into the replays and look at the lack of units before >1gate
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On September 18 2010 08:48 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 07:49 rezoacken wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push.
The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage.
In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this:
Your replay vs 3rax:
Units at 6:54
~24 probes
3 Zealots
2 Stalkers
3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax):
Units at 6:58
~23 SCVs
11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map)
3 Marauders
IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) I don't know, just tested it with YABOT and at 7:00 I have 4Z 3S 4 Sent 22food this looks quite ok if you even add probes to hold 3M 11Marines 17food. And 25 probes. Sure I had to cut down probes around 23-24 to put down gates and make units but that's normal if you feel your opponent is going bio and therefore may be very agressive. By the way I do the 2Gaz version for sentries, I feel I can do more with 16Minerals 6Gaz than with 19Minerals 3Gaz, and stalker are very very expensive compared to sentry + zealots. But maybe that's just me. I really like how you altered the build! A practice partner of mine also does a 2 gas 1 gate FE which works beautifully since against MM(M) there really is only 2 things (assuming equal army size) Sentries and tier 3. He just crushes me by splitting my army in a choke, while guardian shielding. This makes half of my army unable to kite, and the other half just run around being quite useless. Also the guardian shields reduce the DPS source of my army by 33%, quite a hefty blow. Also cutting probes is, imo, detrimental. I can remember TLO saying in one of his and HomerJ's theory series (german only, sorry ^^), that when getting up a fast expansion it is good to focus on army units, priorizing them over the usual "constantly produced workers" since your main goal is to survive and even if you dont push eco 100% you will still come out ahead if the other player doesnt expand (in which case he usually wont be agressive (enough to necessitate worker cutting)) However, 3 Stalkers isnt amazing, and while it should work much better than what kcdc did in the replays he provided (i imagine he mustve refined the build until now) I still think good micro and if all else fails, bringing in 15 SCVs should bring an end to the Protoss expansion. The situation is very probably not cut and dry and relies heavily on timings / scouting and most importantly with such a low amount of units, micro. Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 08:18 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 08:04 ChickenLips wrote:On September 18 2010 07:56 Minigun wrote:On September 18 2010 07:05 ChickenLips wrote:I know there has been a fair amount of OMG THIS BUILD WILL NEVER WORK in this thread, but I firmly believe that it will NOT hold against a well executed 3 rax (1techlab, fast stim, 1 reactor, 1 blank) push. The reason why there have been such positive results for most Protoss is, I believe, that most Terrans in the lower levels of diamond (1k and under) do not understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE. It explots a time where most 3 rax are just building addons, SCVs, depots, getting stim and shields and maybe a factory for future Medivac support (like I would do if I played against a 1base P) to get up a vastly superior economy. If Terran sits in his base and macroes up the economy + production cycles of the warp gates are going to make up for the tech advantage. In order to not come off as just a pure theorycrafter I went into my build order tester and by comparing it with your replays I found this: Your replay vs 3rax: Units at 6:54 ~24 probes 3 Zealots 2 Stalkers 3 rax with fast stim + Conc (1 tech lab, 1 reactor, 1 rax): Units at 6:58 ~23 SCVs 11 Marines (3 of them half way across the map) 3 Marauders IN YOUR BASE (this is important, short walking distances are factored into this) Now, if P pulls all probes and micros perfectly (never exposing a stalker to even 1 shot by a marauder without having a lot of stuff in front to block the MM from hunting them down), he might be able to hold with bad micro by Terran. However, if Terran knows his MM micro, he will stim, run in, quickly snipe the stalkers and have free reign (read: dealing dmg without taking any) over all the melee units that are trying to approach the stimmed marauders and marines that happily kite around the open expo with concussive shells. Note that this 3 rax build is not an allin. It also has a factory in production for Medivacs and doesnt cut SCVs. So why do most Terrans not crush this with 3 rax? Because they hit way too late. Most diamond players want to have a healthy, meaty MM ball. They do not like to engage with few units and that's the advantage of this build, it has almost nothing for 7 minutes and then goes into eco and army overdrive. I think, by looking at my test results, that there really is nothing you can do against the units coming out of the 3 rax, causing you to sack your expo, which while not really putting you behind indefinitely, will allow Terran to just park his MM in a nice concave around your ramp while doing what he likes (preferably building a CC while reacting to what the Protoss is doing (getting Colo / Storm / a big amount of gate way units). I'm quite certain that this build is great for far positions like LT cross. But good Terrans will not do their favorite big-ball-of-units 1base play and instead go for a siege / 1rax / 2rax expand and then prepare a counter for the tier 3 that inevitably come by Protoss or just hit with a lot of MM before the appropriate units are on the field. I've tried to break this FE with my usual MMM push that comes with 2 medivacs, 5 marauders and lotsa marines (around 60-70 food) but by then the Protoss has no problem fending it off with good FF/guardian shields, it's almost the direct counter to any build that doesnt hit before the 7 minute mark, since it acts like a delayed defensive 3-4 gate that actually pressures the opponent by a lot since he will be behind if he does nothing. So long, I'm looking forward to what other players have to offer regarding my thoughts. Definitely an interesting and very smart build that works well in the current pool of TvP strategies. : ) edit: Here's a replay of DeMusliM doing the aforementioned early 3 rax push. http://www.esl.eu/de/sc2/1on1/masters5_open_qualifier/download/23043232/He fucks up his micro by trying to snipe the 2 stalkers in Naniwa's base and accidently grinds his MM along the zealots that were about to become useless but prevented the gg by dealing enough damage before the stalkers were dead. But of course, Demu doesn't care about being behind and just goes on to win the game despite the micro blunder. It works at the 1700 diamond level, where I am. Mind you I have tweaked this build to my liking, but it's generally the same thing. If you want to brag about your rating without doing any effort to even post a single line about strategy, please go elsewhere, there's enough useless posts by people who waste no thought to their posting in these forums already. When did I brag about my rating? You said you can't see this working anywhere above 1k+, I was simply stating it's my standard BO vs terrans. Go flame somewhere else, we don't need posters like you on this forum. I actually went quite light on the flame and intentionally held off personally attacking you since this is a strategy thread. I wrote that most terrans under 1k dont understand the strategy and timings behind the Protoss FE, which i then explained. How you translate that into "doesnt work above 1k diamond" is actually mind blowingly stupid and even if you thought that you couldve at least TRIED to explain why you disagree with my opinion. There is no x build will not work under / over y rating. Measuring skill or strategies in ratings is retarded. Ratings dont mean a lot and are very unreliable in assessing a players' understanding of strategy. (Just look at Capoch sitting around 1.6k points) Unfortunately there is no good way in assessing those and I tried to get across an approximation of the average player that this build will work quite well against since he is still stuck in the i build x, then i attack when i have x and y mindset without properly adjusting or even completely re-thinking their gameplay according to what their opponent is doing. If you think that I flamed in my previous post, you obviously have never been flamed, and while your profile allows some sweet opportunities to do so, I find the time is better spent elsewhere.
By all means, if you want to flame me go ahead, I could care less. I'm not sure what you mean by "my profile allows some sweet opportunities to do so".
I assume you mean the amount of games played, well when you get diagonosed with crohns disease, you have some spare time while you can't hold a job or go to school because of the pain. Starting one of the more powerful treatments next week. But I probably just tmi'd you right there.
I never said I was good, or that points meant anything, so I'm not sure why you are trying to drill that point into my head.
What I am saying is, when I lose to terrans using this build, it's usually when they bring some scvs with their timing push, it gives them the extra edge they need to push over.
Sometimes the 3rax is really down to the line, and you have to pull probes, but you are still ahead if you lose a decent amount, due to having two nexus's with chronoboost.
I was simply not in the mood to talk "strategy" explaining any points, and apparently you took that quite offensively.
lol.
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However, 3 Stalkers isnt amazing, and while it should work much better than what kcdc did in the replays he provided (i imagine he mustve refined the build until now) I still think good micro and if all else fails, bringing in 15 SCVs should bring an end to the Protoss expansion. The situation is very probably not cut and dry and relies heavily on timings / scouting and most importantly with such a low amount of units, micro.
Yeah but stalkers are very expensive and for the timing you stated 3 seems fine for me, I might have 2 more and 2 zealot less, which make 2Zealot and this isn't much either. Stalkers number increase as soon as my 4Gates and expansion is up and running which is around the 6:45 mark.
Terran's all in with bio + scv is the biggest threat for sure but you can bring your own probes to make it even. Or also saccing the expansion is not that bad, 15SCV not mining for 1min (in the case you just pull back and block ramp) might be worth losing 400min.
I'm not saying FE never lose, that is certainly not the case, I'm just stating that I really believe this is a viable build that CAN survive terran pushes. You have to make adjustments, good response and still have good micro to have a correct responds to the most threatening pushes. It means I don't believe a random terran sees it and then say "ok i'll just do this and I win 100%" (might be on some maps though like sow and DQ), but there definitly good responses to it.
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I read through this thread a while ago but I don't remember if there was talk of pure (or heavy) marine all-ins - these have consistently beat me when I try to execute this build, as I dont know what gateway unit composition will beat marines.
I'll up replays if it would help, but I doubt I cleanly executed the build in them in any case, so really my question, beyond "did I do the build right" (to which the answer is almost certainly "no, you idiot"), is whether or not there is a modification I need to be making to deal with, say, no-gas marine all-ins or pure marine+stim all-ins.
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I've been playing a bit lately at the 1300-1400 range and I've noticed that this is a rather effective build for P, I think against most things T does, it will work. My usual opening for T is
10depot 12 rax 13-14 gas, gas at 16 I think and fact then OC after(I know, blasphemy), build starport right after fact and adding more rax somewhere in there(sorry not at cpu), basically it allows alot of options against many openings but to the point. Against your FE, most I believe will make sentrys to stop the ground force he is thinking that is coming, so what I do is wait till I have 3 medvacs with marauder/rine and just drop in his main negating his forcefields and it has worked each time so far. Have you encountered a fast mass drop yet and how did you handle it? Perhaps I was just fortunate.
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On September 18 2010 05:45 Floophead_III wrote:
You screwed up. The ghost 3 rax push is even weaker because it comes so late, so you'll have your economy really moving along at that point. Trust me, I used to think that the ghost/stim 3 rax would rape this but KCDC easily held it off when I tried it. Something is wrong with your play.
not helpful just to say "something wrong with play"
the push hit me at a point, where the economy was "just" about to kick in; if it helps, he went for a very early ghost-academy, he didn't just mass MM from 3 rax and then added ghosts....no.....he built the ghost-academy right after the first rax, "then" added two more rax, built two ghosts together with few marauders and many marines and went for it
the push hits when I build the observer (nearly ready) while charge is just starting and I have production only out of 3 gates because the additional gates are just building; maybe you are thinking about a different ghost-push, but this push is specifically designed to get ghosts as fast as possible while MM mostly consists of marines for high DPS vs shield-less units
but if it's easy to hold off, just tell me which unit-composition kcdc used against you and how he could have such a superior army-size? again, the important points are, that:
a) I can produce only out of 3 gates because of robo
b) I don't have charge
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EPT
