EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 28
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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croupier
United States92 Posts
I love watching replays of this strategy - I feel it's the best way to learn how to effectively use it (other than actually playing games). | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:34 Minigun wrote: Here are some replays against some top players doing the 1 gate fe This strat is really hard to beat, it's my macro that ends up doing away with me if I lose with it ^_^ . +1 for this strat working, have tweaked it a little to my liking, but roughly the same thing. This is after the zealot nurf btw, I haven't noticed it changing much, except a few of the timings. Trump: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151044 Drewbie: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151045 I saw you play Trump last night on his stream I saw you layed gateway down on 13 opposed to 14. You put it together flawlessly and then pushed back after he tried to push you. Which is 1 thing I really love about this build many terrans seem to think they can ram head first since you FE and if you just defend and hold off there first push thats when it seems the econ boost kicks in and you can push back many times winning. Im high platinum and I beat diamond Terrans with this build majority of the time. If I lose its because I messed up somewhere usually with my gateway unit comp in the beginning i.e. getting 1 stalker to many. Will study the replays you posted if you could post your tweaks to the build that would be great. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
When do you take gas on your expo against a 1/1/1? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
This build seems really solid but I wonder why not a lot of P uses this in the GSL. Tester did something similar to this vs JSLzenith. but much more gas unit oriented 9 pylon scout chrono nexus 12 gate chrono nexus 14 gas 16 pylon 17 gas core + warpgate stalker (chrono) sentry 2 gates stalker sentry Expo right as the 3 warp gates are operational. followed by robo and robo bay afterwards. He added a 4th gate but im not sure exactly when. I'm not 100% sure if he really wants to have that much gas or if you can pull guys out of 1 geyser after the 1st sentry to get your expo faster. I'm also not sure on where exactly the chronos go after the stalker but im pretty sure its one on the 1st sentry and maybe one on the core. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 23 2010 05:08 Doko wrote: Tester did something similar to this vs JSLzenith. but much more gas unit oriented 9 pylon scout chrono nexus 12 gate chrono nexus 14 gas 16 pylon 17 gas core + warpgate stalker (chrono) sentry 2 gates stalker sentry Expo right as the 3 warp gates are operational. followed by robo and robo bay afterwards. He added a 4th gate but im not sure exactly when. I'm not 100% sure if he really wants to have that much gas or if you can pull guys out of 1 geyser after the 1st sentry to get your expo faster. I'm also not sure on where exactly the chronos go after the stalker but im pretty sure its one on the 1st sentry and maybe one on the core. That's a 3-gate expand. The expansion timing is pretty different. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
Let me know if it bothers you or whatnot kcdc, I love you for this build btw. On September 23 2010 04:36 oZii wrote: I saw you play Trump last night on his stream I saw you layed gateway down on 13 opposed to 14. You put it together flawlessly and then pushed back after he tried to push you. Which is 1 thing I really love about this build many terrans seem to think they can ram head first since you FE and if you just defend and hold off there first push thats when it seems the econ boost kicks in and you can push back many times winning. Im high platinum and I beat diamond Terrans with this build majority of the time. If I lose its because I messed up somewhere usually with my gateway unit comp in the beginning i.e. getting 1 stalker to many. Will study the replays you posted if you could post your tweaks to the build that would be great. Well this is what I normally do. 9 pylon 12 gate (I've found proxy reapers will kill you if it's any later, maybe I'm just not good enough with probe micro yet though) 15 gas 17 cybernetics 17 pylon 18 zealot 20 stalker (these are a little rough, but it's constant gateway production) 25 stalker 29 stalker 32 stalker expo pylon at expo (stop all probe+unit production) chronoboost cybernetics once, which should finish it in a hurry gateway gateway robo facility 2nd gas if they are marauder heavy and I think I have time to pump out a fast immortal I'll do so, if not I'll go observer for now and use the minerals for fast gateway units On September 23 2010 05:02 whoopadeedoo wrote: Thanks minigun. When do you take gas on your expo against a 1/1/1? After I've had my 3 gates operational for a 2-3 minutes, meh I kinda play it pretty rough game by game tbh. On September 23 2010 04:36 croupier wrote: minigun, thanks for the replays! They were enjoyable & educational (i'm a gold noob). I love your FF micro - it's something i really need to improve on sometime. I love watching replays of this strategy - I feel it's the best way to learn how to effectively use it (other than actually playing games). Your welcome, glad you enjoyed them. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 23 2010 05:21 Minigun wrote: I hope it doesn't look like I'm trying to hijack kcdc's thread, just posting my opinions and my modification to it. Let me know if it bothers you or whatnot kcdc, I love you for this build btw. Well this is what I normally do. 9 pylon 12 gate (I've found proxy reapers will kill you if it's any later, maybe I'm just not good enough with probe micro yet though) 15 gas 17 cybernetics 17 pylon 18 zealot 20 stalker (these are a little rough, but it's constant gateway production) 25 stalker 29 stalker 32 stalker expo pylon at expo (stop all probe+unit production) chronoboost cybernetics once, which should finish it in a hurry gateway gateway robo facility 2nd gas if they are marauder heavy and I think I have time to pump out a fast immortal I'll do so, if not I'll go observer for now and use the minerals for fast gateway units After I've had my 3 gates operational for a 2-3 minutes, meh I kinda play it pretty rough game by game tbh. Your welcome, glad you enjoyed them. No, no. Please, contribute away. I've learned a lot about PvT from the discussion in this thread. I'm rethinking my no-collosus policy in PvT after reading your comments. Honestly, the guide at the start is pretty outdated. The pure barracks plays that I talk about in the OP are really easy to beat with a variety of build orders. An expansion around 30 food followed by some gateway units will hold you into the midgame pretty easily. The bigger threat is well-controlled MMM. You might give 13-gating another go tho. I find that upon scouting that he's cheesing, if you just save your chrono to use 3 boosts in a row to get a zealot and a stalker ASAP, it's really easy to kill a proxied reaper. One more idea you might try is getting a sentry instead of your third stalker. It's not quite as strong defensively against super early pushes, but I believe you have the gas for a sentry and saving 75 minerals allows you to get up your 2nd and 3rd gates up a little faster. Having the sentry on the field early also allows you to start saving up energy so you don't need as many later on. Also, do you have a replay against marine-banshee-raven pushes? I'd like to see how you're using phoenixes. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 23 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote: No, no. Please, contribute away. I've learned a lot about PvT from the discussion in this thread. I'm rethinking my no-collosus policy in PvT after reading your comments. Honestly, the guide at the start is pretty outdated. The pure barracks plays that I talk about in the OP are really easy to beat with a variety of build orders. An expansion around 30 food followed by some gateway units will hold you into the midgame pretty easily. The bigger threat is well-controlled MMM. You might give 13-gating another go tho. I find that upon scouting that he's cheesing, if you just save your chrono to use 3 boosts in a row to get a zealot and a stalker ASAP, it's really easy to kill a proxied reaper. One more idea you might try is getting a sentry instead of your third stalker. It's not quite as strong defensively against super early pushes, but I believe you have the gas for a sentry and saving 75 minerals allows you to get up your 2nd and 3rd gates up a little faster. Having the sentry on the field early also allows you to start saving up energy so you don't need as many later on. Also, do you have a replay against marine-banshee-raven pushes? I'd like to see how you're using phoenixes. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/81563-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis This is the closest replay I have to a 1/1/1 build, unfortunately. This was before the tank nurf. Plus I got uber raped at one point in that game by hellions >_> I don't have any with banashees, but the next time someone goes 1/1/1 I'll be sure to save it. Well, the reason I don't get a sentry that early, is because, it really hurts if they push super early, the sentry does basically nothing. And I find if they go 1/1/1 I can pressure them with 3 fast stalkers+ a zealot, which I do frequently, abusing stalker shields with micro. Although if they don't push early, that sentry's saved up energy would definitely be useful. On September 23 2010 06:58 whoopadeedoo wrote: Also the reaper and bunker build times just got nerfed by 5 seconds (and it's not something terran can CB). True, it might be a lot easier now to 13 gate with this change, good point. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/81563-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis This is the closest replay I have to a 1/1/1 build, unfortunately. This was before the tank nurf. Plus I got uber raped at one point in that game by hellions >_> I don't have any with banashees, but the next time someone goes 1/1/1 I'll be sure to save it. Ugh, I would have had a perfect replay showing pheonix's vs 1/1/1 but unfortunately I forgot to save it  | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:34 Minigun wrote: Here are some replays against some top players doing the 1 gate fe This strat is really hard to beat, it's my macro that ends up doing away with me if I lose with it ^_^ . +1 for this strat working, have tweaked it a little to my liking, but roughly the same thing. This is after the zealot nurf btw, I haven't noticed it changing much, except a few of the timings. Trump: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151044 Drewbie: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=151045 Ah finally some replays!  ... Those Terrans played like crap. Their BOs looked solid but their engagement micro was so beyond horrible. Oh my god. They just panicked and insta commited. Drewbie did a 4 rax all in without any tech pushing WAAAAAAAAAY too late (after you had a solid 3 minutes of 3gaterobo macro off 2 base) and constantly commited his entire army to do some damage. Desperate all in play at its best. Trump got his 2 medivacs very quickly which, in and of itself is a good move, however he just threw his army away and ATTACKED WAY TOO LATE. The nice thing you can do is drop in the back of his base to make him decide what he wants to save, but if you let Protoss macro up his army to be way bigger than yours much of that isn't gonna help (and none if it certainly won't either). A really beautiful push I've seen qxc do against HuK's 1gate robo (pretty similiar in gateway production) was a 3 marauder(conc), 2 marine (1 before marauder production on initial rax, 1 from 2nd rax) and 2 SCV push. I did it a few times against my Protoss practice buddy and he was NEVER able to hold a 1 gate FE pre-patch even. With constant production from 1 gateway + chronoboosts Protoss will have at most 4 units out by the time Terran arrives. Now I would like to see a Gateway composition of 4 units that can hold off 3 Marauders, 2 Marines and 2 SCVs. I've checked with both your replays and at the 5:30 mark when the push arrives on far positions (Blistering) you have your 3rd stalker just popping out, so you have 3 Stalkers and 1 Zealot with a next unit about 30 seconds away (same as Terran reinforcements). 1 Zealot is completely negated my microed Marauders and 2 SCVs. So in all effect you have 3 Stalkers against 3 Marauder and 2 Marines, a battle that is almost impossible to win if T knows his MM micro. T puts up an expo, a factory and a reactor on his rax as he moves out. So the Terran expo is even faster than yours. (If doing this build. I really like your execution of the build, forgoing sentries since they just suck in low numbers. However, I am still 100% certain that with proper scouting and micro a 1 gate FE will never be able to gain advantage over a Terran that knows how to play against it. (Seriously they played terribly) Here is the replay of the build: [url blocked] | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:05 ChickenLips wrote: Ah finally some replays! ... Those Terrans played like crap. Their BOs looked solid but their engagement micro was so beyond horrible. Oh my god. They just panicked and insta commited. Drewbie did a 4 rax all in without any tech pushing WAAAAAAAAAY too late (after you had a solid 3 minutes of 3gaterobo macro off 2 base) and constantly commited his entire army to do some damage. Desperate all in play at its best. Trump got his 2 medivacs very quickly which, in and of itself is a good move, however he just threw his army away and ATTACKED WAY TOO LATE. The nice thing you can do is drop in the back of his base to make him decide what he wants to save, but if you let Protoss macro up his army to be way bigger than yours much of that isn't gonna help (and none if it certainly won't either). A really beautiful push I've seen qxc do against HuK's 1gate robo (pretty similiar in gateway production) was a 3 marauder(conc), 2 marine (1 before marauder production on initial rax, 1 from 2nd rax) and 2 SCV push. I did it a few times against my Protoss practice buddy and he was NEVER able to hold a 1 gate FE pre-patch even. With constant production from 1 gateway + chronoboosts Protoss will have at most 4 units out by the time Terran arrives. Now I would like to see a Gateway composition of 4 units that can hold off 3 Marauders, 2 Marines and 2 SCVs. I've checked with both your replays and at the 5:30 mark when the push arrives on far positions (Blistering) you have your 3rd stalker just popping out, so you have 3 Stalkers and 1 Zealot with a next unit about 30 seconds away (same as Terran reinforcements). 1 Zealot is completely negated my microed Marauders and 2 SCVs. So in all effect you have 3 Stalkers against 3 Marauder and 2 Marines, a battle that is almost impossible to win if T knows his MM micro. T puts up an expo, a factory and a reactor on his rax as he moves out. So the Terran expo is even faster than yours. (If doing this build. I really like your execution of the build, forgoing sentries since they just suck in low numbers. However, I am still 100% certain that with proper scouting and micro a 1 gate FE will never be able to gain advantage over a Terran that knows how to play against it. (Seriously they played terribly) Here is the replay of the build: [url blocked] Well first off let me just apologize for the other day, I'm on a high dose of steroids, which causes irritability and insomnia, so I probably wasn't at my best and took it too personal. Intersting, but I always have probes at the natural to pull if needed, which sometimes, it is, but am still ahead due to having two nexas's up. Also, I save my chronoboosts for my warpgates so if it's ever needed, I can quickly reinforce my armies. To be honest, I don't think I've ever lost to a super early push, such as a 3 maruader, 2 marine, scv push, and I'd like to try it. If you are willing I'd enjoy playing a few customs with you testing this stuff. My character code is 865 , name minigun . | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:19 Minigun wrote: Well first off let me just apologize for the other day, I'm on a high dose of steroids, which causes irritability and insomnia, so I probably wasn't at my best and took it too personal. Intersting, but I always have probes at the natural to pull if needed, which sometimes, it is, but am still ahead due to having two nexas's up. Also, I save my chronoboosts for my warpgates so if it's ever needed, I can quickly reinforce my armies. To be honest, I don't think I've ever lost to a super early push, such as a 3 maruader, 2 marine, scv push, and I'd like to try it. If you are willing I'd enjoy playing a few customs with you testing this stuff. My character code is 865 , name minigun . Ah, It's np, we all have our forum rage moments :D I'd love to play you (and you'd probably beat me since you have simply more experience doing this build than I have breaking it) but I play on EU. The thing is, T can deny the expo (since you throw down the Nexus after it arrives) and kill stuff that is thrown at him, either units or probes. So then he has an earlier expanion, better tech (factory for starport and additional barracks going up as the push unfolds) and probably a lead in worker count since P lost some in defending his expansion and spending most CB on warpgate / units. So then T can just come a few minutes later with 2-4 medivacs and drop in multiple places and stim kite while there is really nothing the big 4 gate Protoss ball can do to defend without having to endure damage further weakening his position in the game. edit: just editing all over the place :D | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:22 ChickenLips wrote: That's even better for T since he can then kill Probes + his expansion is up faster + he can defend it with bunkers if need be. Well yeah it's not optimal to have to use probes, but I don't really ever seem to need to unless he's 3 rax scv all in'ing me, in which case depending on the size of the armies and the scv count be better to just ditch the expansion and hold the choke. | ||
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ALang
Canada288 Posts
~1200ish diamond if it matters. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:05 ChickenLips wrote: --SNIP-- Here is the replay of the build: [url blocked] Don't mean to be critical or anything, but I have one question. This Terran push you describe in this post, why doesn't every Terran do it every TvP if it denies early P expansion as well as getting an expand up for himself? Does it lose to an earlier 2nd gate maybe? | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 23 2010 10:24 Whalecore wrote: Been trying this build a bit, I really like it. Don't mean to be critical or anything, but I have one question. This Terran push you describe in this post, why doesn't every Terran do it every TvP if it denies early P expansion as well as getting an expand up for himself? Does it lose to an earlier 2nd gate maybe? I have no idea. It's a great build and NaDa used it in his TvP at the IEM. You don't lose to a early second gate since that just equalizes the unit count. 2 gate / 3gate expands definitely are safe against it, however their expo timing is afaik always later and you pretty much need those additional gateways to clear out the units from the 2 rax in your expo. (since T has 2 SCVs he can put 2 bunkers down and then you're in huge eco / tech trouble. You never blindy rush up the ramp, you send your SCVs first for vision. If you see too much stuff, you just safely retreat, build a reaper for scouting and stabilize your expo. A DT rush might hurt it but it isn't auto-win since the build allows for a reaper to just scout every proxy location on the map, making it almost impossible to hide tech from good Terrans, also the Factory is in building as the 3mara,2marine,2scv is moving out for future Raven tech if needed. A well executed 3 gate Stalker rush is probably tough to hold but Marauders in bunkers pretty much put an end to that. I think it strikes a very nice balance between agression (which imo every build should feature) and economy (2 rax expand with a little timing push) | ||
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