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I saw you play Trump last night on his stream I saw you layed gateway down on 13 opposed to 14. You put it together flawlessly and then pushed back after he tried to push you. Which is 1 thing I really love about this build many terrans seem to think they can ram head first since you FE and if you just defend and hold off there first push thats when it seems the econ boost kicks in and you can push back many times winning. Im high platinum and I beat diamond Terrans with this build majority of the time. If I lose its because I messed up somewhere usually with my gateway unit comp in the beginning i.e. getting 1 stalker to many. Will study the replays you posted if you could post your tweaks to the build that would be great.[/QUOTE]
Well this is what I normally do.
9 pylon
12 gate (I've found proxy reapers will kill you if it's any later, maybe I'm just not good enough with probe micro yet though)
15 gas
17 cybernetics
17 pylon
18 zealot
20 stalker
(these are a little rough, but it's constant gateway production)
25 stalker
29 stalker
32 stalker
expo
pylon at expo
(stop all probe+unit production)
chronoboost cybernetics once, which should finish it in a hurry
gateway
gateway
robo facility
2nd gas
if they are marauder heavy and I think I have time to pump out a fast immortal I'll do so, if not I'll go observer for now and use the minerals for fast gateway units
[/QUOTE]
I watched your replays and it's good to see you can manage this strat on the higher levels (only ~1150 myself). I did find your build a bit rough or simply put: inefficient.
First of all 13 gate is economically so much better then the 12 gate variant you do, you have about 4-5 secs of downtime on that nexus which is quite a backset in economy. Especially with the reaper nerf you should just go 13 gate into 18 cyber, it's just as safe and economically much better, the gateway is only like 8 secs later anyway. Because you'll have more money as the gateway finishes you can start your zealot faster and won't have to waste a chrono on the first zealot letting you chrono out even more probes for a even better economy.
Also I don't really like your style of using all chronoboosts on the gateway and almost none at warpgate tech. With 1 gateway it doesn't really matter in terms of production speed but your way you spend more on units early on delaying your expansion. Chronoboosting warpgate tech has a similar effect on unit production but doesn't immediately cost you money, which fits better with expanding imo.
For example you make 4 stalkers before warping your gate:
4 stalkers = 4 * 42 = 168 seconds. Use 3 chronoboosts so this becomes 168 - 3 * 10 = 138
warpgate takes 140 secs so then your warpgate finishes right after and you make your 5th stalker at 150 secs after cybercore is done.
Now suppose you use 2 CB's on the warpgate tech and 1 on the gateway and make 3 units before turning warpgate.
3 stalkers = 3 * 42 = 126 secs. 1 CB => 116 secs. Warpgate 140 - 2 * 10 = 120 secs. Warpgate done at 130 secs. 4th stalker at 130, 5th at 162. The difference is quite small but you get the advantage of having a delayed investment, which means you get to expand a lot quicker and your warpgate is exactly warping while you make the pylon during your supply block. It just fits alot better imo. (you can also do 3 CB on warpgate tech and 2 on gateway, to be 10 secs faster overall.)
Finally I don't get why you go 3 gate + robo. I like you get a early robo no matter what just to get a observer (or have the option too) but then you don't seem to use the robo if you're up against bio. Immortals are just as good or better as stalkers really and if you use them you only need 2 gateways. Saving 150 minerals at that point matters alot as you get more steady probe production. Also chronoboosting immortals is about the best use for chronoboost you can have at that point.
Obviously you like the speed and range of stalkers but immortals do so much more damage against marauders that I just don't get why you dont use them. Especially as the robo is idle anyways.. Also immortals are equal against pure marines in combat stats compared to stalkers basically. Offcourse they suck more against kiting but beyond the 7 minute mark when immortals come into play you basically rely on forcefields to trap the terran anyway so that point is moot. By saving the cost of 1 gateway you can also afford that 2nd and maybe 3rd gas a fair bit earlier, allowing for a extra sentry probably.
Also have you ever faced demuslim like builds, with super fast MM + medivac pushes? I've found those to be the most difficult to stop by far and although the 2nd replay had somewhat of a build for that he pushed too early before he had medivacs basically.
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Hey, how does this build fare against the Cauthonluck expand with 1 marine 2 Concussive Marauders -> CC? Can you defend that comfortably, does this give you an econ adv? Or is it just a standard, even game.
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On September 23 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
No, no. Please, contribute away. I've learned a lot about PvT from the discussion in this thread. I'm rethinking my no-collosus policy in PvT after reading your comments.
Honestly, the guide at the start is pretty outdated. The pure barracks plays that I talk about in the OP are really easy to beat with a variety of build orders. An expansion around 30 food followed by some gateway units will hold you into the midgame pretty easily. The bigger threat is well-controlled MMM.
tbh I dread early raven much, much more....dunno, maybe I just suck at killing the PDD
You might give 13-gating another go tho. I find that upon scouting that he's cheesing, if you just save your chrono to use 3 boosts in a row to get a zealot and a stalker ASAP, it's really easy to kill a proxied reaper.
if you use chrono-boost on your stalker you should be fine against early reaper with 13 gate IF you got an early zealot; use the zealot to take hits from the reaper and prevent him from killing probes, maybe pull 2-3 probes too for chasing the reaper and pull each probe back after taking a hit; usually I don't lose anything, unless he is proxying; in this case it doesn't really matter that much if you lose stuff because...well...it's a game vs proxy, these games are different anyways
One more idea you might try is getting a sentry instead of your third stalker. It's not quite as strong defensively against super early pushes, but I believe you have the gas for a sentry and saving 75 minerals allows you to get up your 2nd and 3rd gates up a little faster. Having the sentry on the field early also allows you to start saving up energy so you don't need as many later on.
I don't have the gas-count in mind right now, but wouldn't that delay the robo? I think if you want 3 gate robo instead of 4 gate (which I also prefer btw, without early observer I'm always near a heart-attack when I can't get scouts off and the T doesn't expand...) then you probably need the gas for the robo? although I have to admit I play it more risky anyways....I only get one stalker after the inital zealot and a sentry, then make expo + cut probes + more gates and then reinforce with stalkers + get robo....but that's just different tastes I guess;
one definite advantage is indeed the saving up energy; in fact if you go stalker-heavy early, a guardian-shield from an earlier-built sentry could make a huge difference
Also, do you have a replay against marine-banshee-raven pushes? I'd like to see how you're using phoenixes.
I second that request 
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On September 23 2010 23:06 Markwerf wrote:I saw you play Trump last night on his stream I saw you layed gateway down on 13 opposed to 14. You put it together flawlessly and then pushed back after he tried to push you. Which is 1 thing I really love about this build many terrans seem to think they can ram head first since you FE and if you just defend and hold off there first push thats when it seems the econ boost kicks in and you can push back many times winning. Im high platinum and I beat diamond Terrans with this build majority of the time. If I lose its because I messed up somewhere usually with my gateway unit comp in the beginning i.e. getting 1 stalker to many. Will study the replays you posted if you could post your tweaks to the build that would be great.
Well this is what I normally do.
9 pylon
12 gate (I've found proxy reapers will kill you if it's any later, maybe I'm just not good enough with probe micro yet though)
15 gas
17 cybernetics
17 pylon
18 zealot
20 stalker
(these are a little rough, but it's constant gateway production)
25 stalker
29 stalker
32 stalker
expo
pylon at expo
(stop all probe+unit production)
chronoboost cybernetics once, which should finish it in a hurry
gateway
gateway
robo facility
2nd gas
if they are marauder heavy and I think I have time to pump out a fast immortal I'll do so, if not I'll go observer for now and use the minerals for fast gateway units
[/QUOTE]
I watched your replays and it's good to see you can manage this strat on the higher levels (only ~1150 myself). I did find your build a bit rough or simply put: inefficient.
First of all 13 gate is economically so much better then the 12 gate variant you do, you have about 4-5 secs of downtime on that nexus which is quite a backset in economy. Especially with the reaper nerf you should just go 13 gate into 18 cyber, it's just as safe and economically much better, the gateway is only like 8 secs later anyway. Because you'll have more money as the gateway finishes you can start your zealot faster and won't have to waste a chrono on the first zealot letting you chrono out even more probes for a even better economy.
Also I don't really like your style of using all chronoboosts on the gateway and almost none at warpgate tech. With 1 gateway it doesn't really matter in terms of production speed but your way you spend more on units early on delaying your expansion. Chronoboosting warpgate tech has a similar effect on unit production but doesn't immediately cost you money, which fits better with expanding imo.
For example you make 4 stalkers before warping your gate:
4 stalkers = 4 * 42 = 168 seconds. Use 3 chronoboosts so this becomes 168 - 3 * 10 = 138
warpgate takes 140 secs so then your warpgate finishes right after and you make your 5th stalker at 150 secs after cybercore is done.
Now suppose you use 2 CB's on the warpgate tech and 1 on the gateway and make 3 units before turning warpgate.
3 stalkers = 3 * 42 = 126 secs. 1 CB => 116 secs. Warpgate 140 - 2 * 10 = 120 secs. Warpgate done at 130 secs. 4th stalker at 130, 5th at 162. The difference is quite small but you get the advantage of having a delayed investment, which means you get to expand a lot quicker and your warpgate is exactly warping while you make the pylon during your supply block. It just fits alot better imo. (you can also do 3 CB on warpgate tech and 2 on gateway, to be 10 secs faster overall.)
Finally I don't get why you go 3 gate + robo. I like you get a early robo no matter what just to get a observer (or have the option too) but then you don't seem to use the robo if you're up against bio. Immortals are just as good or better as stalkers really and if you use them you only need 2 gateways. Saving 150 minerals at that point matters alot as you get more steady probe production. Also chronoboosting immortals is about the best use for chronoboost you can have at that point.
Obviously you like the speed and range of stalkers but immortals do so much more damage against marauders that I just don't get why you dont use them. Especially as the robo is idle anyways.. Also immortals are equal against pure marines in combat stats compared to stalkers basically. Offcourse they suck more against kiting but beyond the 7 minute mark when immortals come into play you basically rely on forcefields to trap the terran anyway so that point is moot. By saving the cost of 1 gateway you can also afford that 2nd and maybe 3rd gas a fair bit earlier, allowing for a extra sentry probably.
Also have you ever faced demuslim like builds, with super fast MM + medivac pushes? I've found those to be the most difficult to stop by far and although the 2nd replay had somewhat of a build for that he pushed too early before he had medivacs basically.
[/QUOTE]
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
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It's a flaw NOT to use immortals though even if you may dislike them. Their lack in mobility is well made up for by their much better damage and durability against marauder/marine armies and their production time may be slow, it's still faster then 2 stalkers from warpgates that cost the same.
Most importantly though, it's a waste of the robo bay NOT to make them.
By the time their mobility becomes a issue you have to rely on trapping with forcefields anyway and when that happens immortals are much better then stalkers, they are just a bit harder to use.
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I have had a love/hate relationship with immortals. But yeah, my current opinion is that they are worthwhile units to build because they take an disproportionate amount of damage and do a ridiculous amount of damage when your opponent loads up on armored units. I abuse them as a big target because I want my opponent's heavy hitters targeting my immortal. I'm annoyed by their slow speed and 5 range (making them impossible to chase down or kite), but in a straight up fight, they absorb and deal way more damage than their cost.
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On September 24 2010 01:20 Minigun wrote:
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
I'll second that. I use very few immortals. I understand that they're strong--I just don't like their immobility. If I'm feeling pressured, I'll make a couple immortals just because the robo is up and I need units, but in general, I prefer stalkers.
Also, I tried out phoenixes against a T using hellion drop into banshees. It worked beautifully. The phoenix harass picked off a banshee and kept him in his base through his timing attack window. Storm research finished and it was gg.
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On September 24 2010 01:36 Markwerf wrote:
It's a flaw NOT to use immortals though even if you may dislike them. Their lack in mobility is well made up for by their much better damage and durability against marauder/marine armies and their production time may be slow, it's still faster then 2 stalkers from warpgates that cost the same.
Most importantly though, it's a waste of the robo bay NOT to make them.
By the time their mobility becomes a issue you have to rely on trapping with forcefields anyway and when that happens immortals are much better then stalkers, they are just a bit harder to use.
I don't like themmmm. I mean if they are pure marauder I might get some, but they are just too slow for me.
On September 24 2010 02:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 01:20 Minigun wrote:
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
I'll second that. I use very few immortals. I understand that they're strong--I just don't like their immobility. If I'm feeling pressured, I'll make a couple immortals just because the robo is up and I need units, but in general, I prefer stalkers. Also, I tried out phoenixes against a T using hellion drop into banshees. It worked beautifully. The phoenix harass picked off a banshee and kept him in his base through his timing attack window. Storm research finished and it was gg.
Yes, actually I have been incorporating pheonix into my late game regardless, just to discourage the terran player from harassing with those medivacs.
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On September 24 2010 02:45 Minigun wrote:
Yes, actually I have been incorporating pheonix into my late game regardless, just to discourage the terran player from harassing with those medivacs.
That's an interesting idea. I'm thinking FE into 3-gate + robo into phoenix harass would be a very nice play against 1-1-1, but I'd be concerned about how the phoenix production would cut into your tech/army size against MMM. If T is going something like 2-rax into MMM, when would you time your stargate?
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Not sure if someone mentioned this yet, but if you sockfold properly (aka mineral boosting), then you can get a gateway at 12 instead of 13 and have constant probe production. I'm loving this trick, I hope they don't change it lol.
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On September 24 2010 02:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 01:20 Minigun wrote:
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
I'll second that. I use very few immortals. I understand that they're strong--I just don't like their immobility. If I'm feeling pressured, I'll make a couple immortals just because the robo is up and I need units, but in general, I prefer stalkers. Also, I tried out phoenixes against a T using hellion drop into banshees. It worked beautifully. The phoenix harass picked off a banshee and kept him in his base through his timing attack window. Storm research finished and it was gg.
Man, my PvT style cannot be any more different. I've been getting 2 or even 3 robos and just making retarded numbers of immortals and maybe a colossus or two (they clear out marines like nobody's business, vikings or not). I just don't see the point of making stalkers except as GtA units.
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What's the appropiate response for a terran player when he scout's this build. I like to go 2 rax pressure into whatever I please. Just throw an expand down myself?
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On September 24 2010 03:56 Endorsed wrote:
What's the appropiate response for a terran player when he scout's this build. I like to go 2 rax pressure into whatever I please. Just throw an expand down myself?
People do different things. I like macro play, so I'd go 2-rax expand with bunkers. I'd follow up with lots of drops. You'll also need to get a feel for when storm is coming since you'll need match with ghosts. Late game, I think you need either tanks or battlecruisers as pure MMM isn't quite strong enough to deal with zealot-HT in a straight fight.
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On September 24 2010 02:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 01:20 Minigun wrote:
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
I'll second that. I use very few immortals. I understand that they're strong--I just don't like their immobility. If I'm feeling pressured, I'll make a couple immortals just because the robo is up and I need units, but in general, I prefer stalkers. Also, I tried out phoenixes against a T using hellion drop into banshees. It worked beautifully. The phoenix harass picked off a banshee and kept him in his base through his timing attack window. Storm research finished and it was gg.
I share the common love/hate-relationship with the immortal; I instantly start chrono-boosting one when I spot SCVs together with army, because I need the meatshield and something against bunkers that are sometimes thrown down in the process;
I think you can put it in fact very simply: immortals are good if the enemy attacks you full-scale without hit and run; in all other circumstances they are bad; they slow your army down immensly, never go where you want them to and are a nightmare to micro, sometimes I get the feeling they'd prefer hitting critters instead of my enemy if I wouldn't keep track of them constantly; immortals truly hate the player, this must be the crazyness of the crippled people who are trapped within this machine ( http://www.gamecheatplaza.com/diaries/StarCraft2/immortal-sc2-protoss-unit );
concerning phoenixes - I would LOVE to see a replay of this, since I cannot think of any way to implement them without severely screwing up my already delayed tech
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On September 24 2010 04:54 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:31 kcdc wrote:On September 24 2010 01:20 Minigun wrote:
With the 5 second added to reapers+bunkers I have taken everyones advice and moved to 13 gate, it does work better, but it was too risky before patch imo.
I chronoboost the gateway for early pushes against 1/1/1, and it makes the 1 reaper 1 marine 2 marauder or 3 marauder 1 marine pushes super easy to defend, and you are usually able to counterpush, ending it there sometimes.
I really don't like immortals, I don't ever use them, they are slow, take forever to produce, and have a big target on their head saying shoot me. Gateway units are just so much more mobile, and useful. I don't like immortals, simply put. This is the only build order I use vs terrans, so I've faced every sort of push terrans can come up with. The ones I have trouble with are 3rax scv all ins, thats basically it though. If I ever lose a game vs terran, it was my macro late game that killed me, not this build.
I'll second that. I use very few immortals. I understand that they're strong--I just don't like their immobility. If I'm feeling pressured, I'll make a couple immortals just because the robo is up and I need units, but in general, I prefer stalkers. Also, I tried out phoenixes against a T using hellion drop into banshees. It worked beautifully. The phoenix harass picked off a banshee and kept him in his base through his timing attack window. Storm research finished and it was gg. I share the common love/hate-relationship with the immortal; I instantly start chrono-boosting one when I spot SCVs together with army, because I need the meatshield and something against bunkers that are sometimes thrown down in the process; I think you can put it in fact very simply: immortals are good if the enemy attacks you full-scale without hit and run; in all other circumstances they are bad; they slow your army down immensly, never go where you want them to and are a nightmare to micro, sometimes I get the feeling they'd prefer hitting critters instead of my enemy if I wouldn't keep track of them constantly; immortals truly hate the player, this must be the crazyness of the crippled people who are trapped within this machine ( http://www.gamecheatplaza.com/diaries/StarCraft2/immortal-sc2-protoss-unit ); concerning phoenixes - I would LOVE to see a replay of this, since I cannot think of any way to implement them without severely screwing up my already delayed tech
I don't know about critters, but in PvP, they would MUCH rather shoot at a probe over a stalker. Which makes sense, you know, because stalkers take 4 immortals shots to kill while probes require only 3. Much better to shoot the probe.
Workers hard-counter immortals....
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On September 24 2010 05:05 kcdc wrote:
Workers hard-counter immortals....
indeed - saw a game where protoss got bunker rushed early midgame and got an immortal......he managed to break the contain, but after focussing down the bunker (an obvious right-click command with immortal) the immortal decided to shoot at the SCV standing around uselessly; such a dumb unit, makes me wanna cry
the only "real" situation where I can think of them being awsome vs attacks is lost temple; I got roflstomped there once by a huge midgame MMM-army with storm not being ready although I had lots of chargelots; but the space was too frickin small, they couldn't all charge! so about 30% of them stood behind their colleagues and waited for their turn of being slauthered (noticed that only in the replay though); now instead of more stalkers I think immortals would've been better;
if you think about it, if the entrance you have to defend is quite small, then immortals get infinitely more useful because you can completely trap your opponent with just a few forcefields; I currently try to incorporate them in my early defensive force on blistering sands, LT and DO, maybe works also on scrap station; definitely won't work on metalopolis, delta quadrant, xel naga and kulas I guess
EDIT: btw. @minigun: since your posts are really helpful I will comment on the reps, maybe you find it helpful too, maybe you've noticed this stuff already:
after watching your game vs trump I noticed, that you actually chrono-boosted out only 4 units from your gateway; if you had chrono-boosted 5 you could've immediately warped in another stalker after the warp-gate tech finished; just imagine, instead of 2 zealots + 4 stalkers having 2 zealots, and 5 stalkers; if you build a sentry earlier (3rd or 4th unit) you will even have a guardian shield ready when the push arrives! people say that it's better to speed up warpgate-tech, but in fact when you expect being pushed the best way is to time it so you produce units constantly and can warp in another unit just when the push arrives;
in your game vs drewbie you could've held your expo if you had warped in two sentries when you noticed that he went for it; well, this you probably have already figured out after watching the game yourself
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Well here is a 1/1/1 replay, I didn't play my best, but it's just an example.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-151483.jpg)
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How'd you go against a ~06:30 stim done timing attack off of 3rax with ~10 scv pull  ?
This thing killed me over and over yesterday in practice, so much, that now I feel like not cutting probes for gateways and sacrficing nexus if they pull more than 3-4 scvs, while turtling on high ground.
The map was steps of war...but the situation had an equal army count for P and T (warpgates finished, doing one warp and second by end of fight). The stim + scv tanking did so much damage, it was no contest at all.
I even tried cutting probes at 30 for nexus -> sentry -> 2gateways -> stalker -> pylon -> 3 warps +chrono on warpgate -> death with half terran army left over.
I doubt pulling my own probes would work...and mule makes it possible for terran to stop any unit production until CC is started, pull scvs back, and be ahead on economy/army with same tech.
Anthying besides letting him kill a nexus feels like a waste, and if so, there's not much point in cutting probes for gateways (can hold a 3rax without scv pull anyway).
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Maybe it's just me but don't you think that with the zealot nerf fend off a 3rax timing push is a little harder now? I've been steamrolled two times yesterday T_T
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On September 24 2010 16:55 Ingruz wrote:
Maybe it's just me but don't you think that with the zealot nerf fend off a 3rax timing push is a little harder now? I've been steamrolled two times yesterday T_T
It's just you. 3 rax is still easy to hold.
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EPT
