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On September 24 2010 16:55 Ingruz wrote:
Maybe it's just me but don't you think that with the zealot nerf fend off a 3rax timing push is a little harder now? I've been steamrolled two times yesterday T_T
you probably get too many zealots; you wanna have 1-2 max just to force them to kill them off first or kite; your stalkers are the real damage-dealers, they just happen to die fast vs marauders; so if you manage to focus down some marauders while the marauders fire at the zealots you are good;
also I like to get a sentry real quickly (third unit) to have guardian shield ready...but that just depends on your taste if you prefer this to an additional stalker, I guess
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On September 24 2010 21:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 16:55 Ingruz wrote:
Maybe it's just me but don't you think that with the zealot nerf fend off a 3rax timing push is a little harder now? I've been steamrolled two times yesterday T_T you probably get too many zealots; you wanna have 1-2 max just to force them to kill them off first or kite; your stalkers are the real damage-dealers, they just happen to die fast vs marauders; so if you manage to focus down some marauders while the marauders fire at the zealots you are good; also I like to get a sentry real quickly (third unit) to have guardian shield ready...but that just depends on your taste if you prefer this to an additional stalker, I guess
I actually prefer to go almost pure zealot/sentry vs 3 rax or other bio allins. Stalkers are inferior dps and sentries/zealots is more food per cost. You also NEED guardian shield. Stalkers are much better vs marine/tank/banshee/raven style play since you kinda need them to fight banshees and they can pick off tanks and such very effectively.
The fact is, aside from VERY early on, your limiter for zealot production is not build time, but money and # of operational gates. If you need more units, you probably need to be making an extra gate, but that goes for any unit composition. I honestly don't even notice a difference with zealots in the midgame.
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On September 24 2010 21:40 Floophead_III wrote:
I actually prefer to go almost pure zealot/sentry vs 3 rax or other bio allins. Stalkers are inferior dps and sentries/zealots is more food per cost.
this may be true, but it's insanely vulnerable to kiting; you'd have to completely trap him somehow, which is very risky and on most maps there is too much wide open space for doing that (exceptions are lost temple, desert oasis and blistering....but then again on DO and BS he can also go for the rocks); stalkers have only inferior DPS when zealots get charge; without charge they need forever to get their first hits off, when they are fired at by concussive grenades it's even worse; so you have to keep in mind that stalkers to damage right away while zealots have to get up to the enemy in the first place; and then you have to trap the bio-ball somehow, which seems nearly impossible on maps like xel naga, metalopolis or delta quadrant
EDIT: if we talk about delayed 3-rax-pushes it's a different topic because then your economy is already kicking....nobody should have problems defeating the push at this point though; I was talking about very early 3 rax pushes
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Well thanks to all for the answers. I was talking about an early 3 rax rush with about 5 marauders and 3 marines. He hit and we keep fight and reinforce around my exp but as soon as his stimpack research finish I was wiped out... maybe as someone says I made too many zealot :\
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On September 24 2010 22:47 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 21:40 Floophead_III wrote:
I actually prefer to go almost pure zealot/sentry vs 3 rax or other bio allins. Stalkers are inferior dps and sentries/zealots is more food per cost. this may be true, but it's insanely vulnerable to kiting; you'd have to completely trap him somehow, which is very risky and on most maps there is too much wide open space for doing that (exceptions are lost temple, desert oasis and blistering....but then again on DO and BS he can also go for the rocks); stalkers have only inferior DPS when zealots get charge; without charge they need forever to get their first hits off, when they are fired at by concussive grenades it's even worse; so you have to keep in mind that stalkers to damage right away while zealots have to get up to the enemy in the first place; and then you have to trap the bio-ball somehow, which seems nearly impossible on maps like xel naga, metalopolis or delta quadrant EDIT: if we talk about delayed 3-rax-pushes it's a different topic because then your economy is already kicking....nobody should have problems defeating the push at this point though; I was talking about very early 3 rax pushes
Honestly, prestim pushes are just not that scary. 3 FFs can trap a good part of their army. It's simply a matter of having good control and keep your zealots back by your sentries until he moves in, then FF trap and kill. You'll have 1-2 stalkers since they serve as early scouts and are mobile, so they can help pick off units from afar, but once stim kicks in stalkers are not so good.
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I love when Protoss try and FE against me as terran, free wins are always fun. I am only 800 diamond but a early mid-game +1,0 MM army stomps protoss fe builds. If I see you are Fe'n then I don't have to worry about storms and I can skip medivacs and get +1. The army size difference plus upgrades is large enough to just walk into natural. Protoss retreats to ramp, scan ramp gives you better concave protoss retreats away from ramp you try and advance if you get up ramp you win. If he shields ramp back off sit at natural and expand, gg.
The one build that consistantly holds off an MM army that scouts what you are doing and reacts, is a 3 gateway robo(immortal) build. (sometimes lost to crazy zealot legs/mass force field sentry builds, but thats a battle of micro, if first set of force fields don't work terran wins) At that point I'm forced to consider expanding and containing, or getting ghosts off 1 base which means no medivacs.
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On September 24 2010 23:25 Floophead_III wrote:
Honestly, prestim pushes are just not that scary. 3 FFs can trap a good part of their army. It's simply a matter of having good control and keep your zealots back by your sentries until he moves in, then FF trap and kill. You'll have 1-2 stalkers since they serve as early scouts and are mobile, so they can help pick off units from afar, but once stim kicks in stalkers are not so good.
What do you do when your FFs cut his army in 2? Obviously you'll take out the front half, but the back units can then just run away  I like hunting them down with my stalkers.
In general I like a mix of zealot/stalker because neither operates at peak efficiency in large numbers. Stalkers get stuck behind each other, and zealots can't find enough surface area to attack. I find I hardly have to remake my stalkers anyway. I often end a game with 5+ stalkers having 5+ kills! Surely worth that early investment.
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snadmonkey, it sounds like you're fighting against toss who doesn't know how to macro or respond to early pressure. Just about every timing push by terran (without scvs) can be repelled with the single gateway until the two additional warpgates come online. Your MM will kite and kill the couple of front-running zealots while stalkers are shooting up your army. When the zealots die, the stalkers will retreat back and you will give chase, only to find 3 more zealots warping in. Your MM is stopped right there.
I find marine spam the most difficult to deal with because it catches me off guard. But MM is never a problem unless I screwed up my macro.
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Well I don't do a 6/6 push like i use to anymore which is the situation your talkinga bout, but if I did and I have a larger army, which I would off 3 production buildings, then no reason to kite maras FF stalkers marines FF zealots. I feel terran players over use kiting since it can allow a toss to get more reinforcements or let stim run out. If my army is large just stim and have right units FF right ones, if you retreat I move behind your expo and hold position. Instead I prefer more of a 12/14 ish style push, before you can tech up to anything meaningful and again push into natural with at least equal size army but more upgrades.
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Ok i tried this build for the first time after 400+ games...and let me tell you,,this is awesome +_+b. 2 of my games were against a 2 port banshee terran which was pretty easy to stop by going 3 warp gate robo into Stargate. Keep bothering the terran with your phoenix while macroing.
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I'm still struggling with this build. I benchmarked myself off the top replay in the original post "PvT FE vrs 3-rax. Is that a good baseline to try and refine? Typically I lose to a Marine Marauder mix, marauder heavy and the have the conc upgrade.
I think the issue I'm having is I feel like I'm forced to micro heavily and warp in reinforcements while Terran sort of just 1-A into my forces, maybe a bit of kiting. Granted if the Terran is not as good a player I can easily hold them off and, my play needs some refinement as I said.
If anyone can suggest a good replay to work off of I'd appreciate it. Specifically geared to stop MM push around the 7-8 minute mark.
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Can you post your replay so I can see what it is you are doing wrong?
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Yes I'm trying to now but seems like the site I usually use isnt taking post 1.1 replays hmm.
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use gamereplays.
Also, I have reverted back to my 12gate...I've been marine rushed + bunker a few times now (they send first marine, put down a bunker, can stall it and keep the bunker down but eventually they have 5 marines and it just annihilates everything), and it's basically impossible to hold 13-14 gating, if you ask me.
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Ok I'll post this one. I seem to have lost the prior ones where I stick more to the original post build. In this one I have 3 gates before the expand and it comes a full minute later. Is that my issue? Or just awful macro/micro. Bear in mind I'm a lower rank platinum and not a great player.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-151619.jpg)
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On September 25 2010 06:07 Dash27 wrote:Ok I'll post this one. I seem to have lost the prior ones where I stick more to the original post build. In this one I have 3 gates before the expand and it comes a full minute later. Is that my issue? Or just awful macro/micro. Bear in mind I'm a lower rank platinum and not a great player.
Well your problem that game was just bad unit composition and you seemed to stop making probes a lot during that replay, you really need at least 3-4 sentries at that point in the game, and another gateway would have helped. Guardian shield and ff's are a must for fighting terran.
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Ok thanks for the tips. I just played another T on Xel Naga and won, but I didnt face the MM push I struggle with a lot. Not sure what they were going for here. I think I got the build a bit more like it's supposed to look.
Rewatching it now you're right, I really do stop probe production way too much. I usually am pretty good with that must be focusing too much on the other stuff. hmm. Thanks.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-151631.jpg)
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@minigun:
are you sure you cant hold the proxy rax with a 13 gate?
i just tried your build with a 13 gate and one chrono boost on the cyber core and i get every unit out faster then you did in your vs drewbie game and i start my expo about 30-40 seconds earlier then you with the same units and 2 more probes.
cant upload the replay because every replay site hates vs computer games....
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On September 25 2010 06:40 ChickenLips wrote:So I've seen Fuzer do this fancy new build that completely destroys anything 1 gate x. Here are the replays: http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup40/download/23231818/http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup40/download/23231817/Basically 1 rax with techlab and 2 proxied rax near the opponents base just funneling Marauders with concussive and Marines at his opponent. Since 1 Marauder > 1 Stalker and 1 Marauder > lotsa zealots with good control the Protoss just dies, like it seems. I wonder how this does against a 1 gate FE.
You don't FE when you're being proxied :0:0
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EPT
