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Minigun
619 Posts
You really need to pump out an observer first out of the robo. Also, you have no sentries in your army, they are crucial vs terran for force fields, and guardian shield. I also wouldn't go for a forge and 2 more gateways, that early, instead, with those minerals, you could have been consistently pumping out units. Also, chronoboost your 13 probe. I also wouldn't make two zealots first, any super early marauder aggression will get you killed. Go for 1 zealot then to a stalker imo. | ||
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SaintsTheMetal
United States45 Posts
Recently, I've been getting better and better at holding off the early Marauders, or the early 2+1 push, or the slightly later mass Marauder push. But recently, I got the very early mass marine+SCV push twice. I rarely see this at all, but both times it totally stomped me. Just wondering, what do you guys do VS the early Marine+SCV push? Once I got it with all his SCVs, and the other with just 3-4 SCVs to come soak and build bunkers. I'd love to see any replays successfully holding off this push. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152515.jpg) This game, he brings his marines with pretty much all of his SCVS. I cancel my Nexus right when he's getting there, I see it coming, but I feel like there's no way I could have held this push. I did have a bad rally costing me my only Sentry, which screwed my only chance of winning, but even if I had it, I question whether I would have been able to beat all his rines + SCVs. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152517.jpg) This game, he doesn't bring quite as many SCVs, but still comes with tons of Marines, and a few SCVs to soak and build bunkers. This push comes a little later, and I felt like I almost could have held it if I pulled all probes, but still not sure how to really stop this thing. Would it be better not to FE if I probe scout two barracks going down without addons before my probe is killed? But then it seems if I FF my ramp, he is just free to expand and have map control. Or should I cut completely cut probes at some point to get the nexus and then 2 more gateways up immediately? Thanks for any insight, -Zach | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
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SaintsTheMetal
United States45 Posts
On September 27 2010 08:33 ChickenLips wrote: If he brings SCVs, sack the nexus and retreat up to high ground with force field / if necessary probes to defend. He will have lost A LOT of economy by taking his SCVs out for a ride. yea I figured this when he went all-in with ALL SCVs (still kicking myself for bad rally point killing my only sentry), but what about heavy marine rush with just a few of his SCVs? 3-5 or so? Mules more than make up for the lost SCVs in the early game, so the Terran's economy will still be better than yours, and if you sac your expo then, he will be free to expand and contain you. What unit composition do you use to hold this kind of push? | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
I do not really know enough about T to say more about what this push consists of, but has anyone else had experience with dealing with this push? It sounds like it comes later than the latest push kcdc talks about, but it also sounds quite worrying. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
As protoss I just don't know what the hell you do vs it. I haven't found a solution. I'd like to find one, but I don't think one exists. Please please please prove me wrong or my hopes in PvT will be shattered. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
On September 27 2010 10:05 kzn wrote: I was discussing this build with a T friend of mine who was like top10 in his division during beta, and he is of the opinion that the "80food push" (his words) is impossible to hold with any FE build by P. This push, I believe, comes roughly when EMP finishes, and consists of MM + ghosts (probably marine-heavy). I do not really know enough about T to say more about what this push consists of, but has anyone else had experience with dealing with this push? It sounds like it comes later than the latest push kcdc talks about, but it also sounds quite worrying. By the time that attack comes, your expansion will have kicked in and you'll have more stuff than you would if you were 1-basing, so there's really no way you would be worse off against it with this build than any 1-base build. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
I do lose a stalker in this game when I move out to check his wall, but I honestly have no idea how I am supposed to hold against this, I felt like even with the additional units I would have been absolutely smashed. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=152585 I just don't have any idea how I am supposed to handle this situation, especially since it doesn't really seem like there is an effective way to scout the 2 rax in time, | ||
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SaintsTheMetal
United States45 Posts
On September 27 2010 10:05 kzn wrote: I was discussing this build with a T friend of mine who was like top10 in his division during beta, and he is of the opinion that the "80food push" (his words) is impossible to hold with any FE build by P. This push, I believe, comes roughly when EMP finishes, and consists of MM + ghosts (probably marine-heavy). I do not really know enough about T to say more about what this push consists of, but has anyone else had experience with dealing with this push? It sounds like it comes later than the latest push kcdc talks about, but it also sounds quite worrying. anything that comes significantly after the 8:00 minute mark when your economy starts to kick in is exponentially easier to hold off. by then you can have 6 operational gates and a robo, or 5 gates and 2 robos pumping out. i've never had a problem holding anything after the early tank or MMM pushes. what i'm currently struggling with is the super early marine/scv rushes, if anyone knows how to handle them.. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On September 27 2010 11:01 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I just tested the marine/banshee allin with stim + 2 ports and honestly it doesn't appear stoppable with this build. 1 game isn't enough to prove anything, but I offer anyone who wants to try this FE vs it to give me a holler on bnet floophead.273. I will play vs you. As protoss I just don't know what the hell you do vs it. I haven't found a solution. I'd like to find one, but I don't think one exists. Please please please prove me wrong or my hopes in PvT will be shattered. I haven't lost to a banshee/marine all-in in a while with this build (about 1200-1300 diamond area) ever since I started adding phoenixes. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 27 2010 11:34 whoopadeedoo wrote: I haven't lost to a banshee/marine all-in in a while with this build (about 1200-1300 diamond area) ever since I started adding phoenixes. I did play vs minigun and he barely managed to hold it by getting a phoenix out and pulling probes. It's tricky to hold off but I think if you hold off the banshee harass well and play smart you'll be ok. Phoenix seem to be the proper transition. Any 1 port banshee strat doesn't put out enough banshees to warrant getting them IMO, or at least doesn't require them, but it seems 2 port requires them until HT are ready. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On September 27 2010 08:27 SaintsTheMetal wrote: Would it be better not to FE if I probe scout two barracks going down without addons before my probe is killed? But then it seems if I FF my ramp, he is just free to expand and have map control. Or should I cut completely cut probes at some point to get the nexus and then 2 more gateways up immediately? Thanks for any insight, -Zach many people underestimate the strength of stalkers early vs marines because of concussive-marauders I like playing against mass-marines when FEing (I dread marine/ghost though); if you don't scout an early tech-lab you should try to get stalkers out ASAP - if you screwed up your build a bit then I'd even say you should forget about the early zealot; rally your first stalker to your opponent's base and start knocking at his door ASAP; reinforce with stalkers until you've got three, then add sentry (which means a delayed sentry comparing this to my standard 1 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry opening combo); three stalkers are a REAL pain to handle with just marines; there is no way in hell he is rushing you with "just" marines, even after stim is ready, simply because you can kite him all the way while he is running towards your base; he has no medivacs, so stimming preemptively will basicly end up with him having very weak marines when he arrives at your base some theory-craft to back this up: stalker range: 6; marine-range 5; stalker-speed: 2.9531; marine-speed: 2.25; with stim: 3,37500; as you can see stim-ed marines are just "a bit" faster than stalkers, if you stay out of their range carefully at first and spread your stalkers a little bit, you won't end up losing too much, if anything at all bottomline: marines vs early stalker-pressure means he has to get either marauders or stim just to be able to leave his base; if he stims to overcome kiting he has weak marines when arriving at your base; basicly it's the same problem as playing vs PDD - you MUSTN'T wait for him, but annoy him from the beginning; concussive won't be a problem because he just can't have it when he goes for a late tech-lab and marine-heavy...he will prefer stim and probably also combat shield | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On September 27 2010 05:34 Chronopolis wrote: I have been using this build exclusively for pvt, but I go for a 14 gate like in the OP 14 gate 15 assim 16 pylon 19 zealot (after probe) 22 pylon (if you don't lose your scouting probe you need to place this asap or you will supply block on probes) stalker (CB) + warpgate [CB stalker for 1 rax pushes, CB an additional zealot if they are going proxy fac or you are under pressure] expo 33-34 pylon at natrual I haven't exactly figured out this part 3-rax: 3 more gates (probe cut) 1 more gate TC reasonably quickly and second gas survive until charge 1/1/1 2 more gates (probe cut if position is close) robotics facility 1 more gate TC charge for everthing except heavy banshee play. 1 rax expo 3 more gates (slowly no probe cut at all) TC 1 more gate charge Templar Archive Storm The bolded elements are the part of the builds, where the optimal order is uncertain. Are there any flaws,improvments, or optimizations that could be made to this build. Can a 14 gate hold the array of cheeses? I dont know how this deals with 3 rax, but I am certain that you will suffer a large increase in losses vs. cheese if you opt for a 14 gate. There's just no way that you can stop 6 rax reaper/rauder/rine or a proxy build unless it's performed poorly. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 27 2010 14:16 Floophead_III wrote: I did play vs minigun and he barely managed to hold it by getting a phoenix out and pulling probes. It's tricky to hold off but I think if you hold off the banshee harass well and play smart you'll be ok. Phoenix seem to be the proper transition. Any 1 port banshee strat doesn't put out enough banshees to warrant getting them IMO, or at least doesn't require them, but it seems 2 port requires them until HT are ready. Yeah, I've lost to this same push many times (although I've held it maybe ~40% of the time using with gateway units), but recently, I've started using phoenixes, and my win rate against the push has increased. Properly executed, it's a very strong timing attack against almost any P build (except phoenix openings of course), but I don't think it's unbeatable. Also, I don't think the FE necessarily weakens P against a banshee-marine opening. It hits well after the time that the expansion will have paid for itself, so the senses that the FE weakens P's defenses are spreading P out to banshee harass and delaying tech. Good control limits the impact of the banshee harass, even when you're spread out. The delayed tech is a bigger issue. The timing push can hit before storm regardless of the BO you choose, so the key would seem to be whether you can get a sufficient phoenix count with a FE. I think you can, but I haven't played it enough times to be sure. | ||
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Kinslayer
United States129 Posts
Some really great info here. Do you mind though posting a few more post patch replays? I am trying to wrap my head around this build since I really like the concept behind it. I am having a really hard time with it vs simple 3 rax pushes. I just can't seem to have enough stuff to fend it off. I am POSITIVE I am messing everything up. But having a few more, updated, replays would help a lot in giving me timings to compare and work up to. again, thanks for all the info in this thread  | ||
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tragics
3 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote: Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I don't know what to do against that. I'd suggest a combination of good scouting, lots of units, and flanking from behind to kill off the marine ball. If you can kill the marines, the thor alone doesn't do a ton of damage. Try to poke back and forth at the marines as the thor advances. The marines can't afford to stim more than once or twice, and every time you threaten the marines, he'll want to stim them to run them behind the thor. If you can make that happen before the main engagement, you might have the edge you need to hold the push. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
edit: nm ... read there are marines with it too. How many marines? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 27 2010 11:19 L_Master wrote: I just played a couple games against a two rax push with fast mauraders with conc. that hit right before my nexus was finished and before my WG and additional 2 gateways had kicked in. I do lose a stalker in this game when I move out to check his wall, but I honestly have no idea how I am supposed to hold against this, I felt like even with the additional units I would have been absolutely smashed. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=152585 I just don't have any idea how I am supposed to handle this situation, especially since it doesn't really seem like there is an effective way to scout the 2 rax in time, Your build was extremely poorly executed and you could have had about 4 Stalkers, 1 Zealot when his push came and that can pretty comfortably hold against what he had. | ||
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