EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 34
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Lordcamel
17 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 29 2010 02:43 Lordcamel wrote: Hello all, Here's a replay of what tends to happen regularly to me when I do this build, I know I'm not perfect on timings and all but so is my opponent and I still get steamrolled. Could you please point out what I missed regarding the build Nurkis vs Sircamel on Steppes de guerre I always seem to get rolled over a 60/70 food MMM push ... Thanks a lot to all who take the time to help me on this .. I'm at work, so I can't watch the replay, but the key to defending this push is sentries. You'll want to have 3-5 sentries, and you'll want to keep them up by your zealots so that the MM can't get in range of your zealots without risking having their retreat path blocked off by forcefields. Once you forcefield behind as many units as you can, cast guardian shield and do as much damage as you can. You'll be reinforcing more quickly, so as long as you're able to trade forces, you'll slowly pull ahead. You don't need to rush for charge, but you'll want to have it under way while you're dealing with the early MMM push. | ||
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Lordcamel
17 Posts
But I dunno if some nicely placed FF could have won me the game .. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 29 2010 02:53 Lordcamel wrote: yes it is mine 's french but i can watch any replay usually ... Didn't EU receive an update that US hasn't yet? Regardless, KCDC is absolutely correct. The key is FFs and GS. Whatever you do, don't engage without some zealots in front, and warp in ONLY ZEALOTS. If your zealot wall runs out and you're not already ahead in numbers you will get slaughtered quickly. Kill off half their force with good FFs and pull back wait for another wave of zealots. Keep that up long enough and they'll run out of steam. Terran can't reinforce as fast as you. If you go 3 gates robo, make sure to keep pumping immortals. Use them to target marauders and keep them alive at all costs, since they are the highest dps unit you have. I've never had much of an issue with a straight up bio push, you just have to have good FFs, solid macro, and good defensive micro. The longer the game goes the better shape you're in, so don't get greedy with your units. Play smart. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On September 29 2010 03:18 Lordcamel wrote: OK , but when you ll watch the rep you ll see he already has like 4 Medvacs .. which allow him to stim constantly therefore my army with only zealots/stalkers and a few sentries without enough energy fell down quickly . But I dunno if some nicely placed FF could have won me the game .. Your economy advantage should have paid for itself far before you fight mass marine/marauder with stim and 4 medivacs. I'm not saying you should have storm but charge should be around the corner at that point or under way. Your army should be big enough to hold it with gate units (4gates) and maybe one or two immortals from extra money (since you will probably have a robo anyway). During battle you should be able to win by forcefielding his army and use guardian shield. | ||
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Kinslayer
United States129 Posts
On September 29 2010 02:43 Lordcamel wrote: Hello all, Here's a replay of what tends to happen regularly to me when I do this build, I know I'm not perfect on timings and all but so is my opponent and I still get steamrolled. Could you please point out what I missed regarding the build Nurkis vs Sircamel on Steppes de guerre I always seem to get rolled over a 60/70 food MMM push ... Thanks a lot to all who take the time to help me on this .. ok...just watched it. You pretty much do the same mistakes that I do when I use this build. First off the point of this build, which gets lost to me a lot during game play, is to utilize the fact that protoss gateway units can actually fend off an early terran push while having an expo going. This lets you go to the mid game in a really good spot economically. But to make this work, you have to: - Macro REALLY well. That means probes all the time. If you watch, you'll see that your probe production specially around the time when the expo is building slows down big time. You want to have at least a full tab's worth of probes by the time that expo is done (or soon after). This way you get the economic gain you should. - You need to build units constantly in that early period. You did fine at first, but slowed down again. You missed a few waves of units that could have helped. - Transition out of the gateway units only phase when the expo is done unless there's a reason not to. I noticed that the Terran attacked you at 11 mins with a decent army. You probably could have had more units by then and even could have had a colossus out at least. You kinda did what I do, stayed on gateway units for too long and didn't even have the amount you really could have had  This build is macro dependent to the extreme. It's why I too am struggling with it... my macro is just not good enough (yet) to make it work. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
I realized after watching it once i could have ended it way sooner but anyways.... ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153170.jpg) | ||
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TheYellowDart
United States13 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:56 Minigun wrote: Well I finally found someone good who went 1/1/1 build and got the replay for it. I realized after watching it once i could have ended it way sooner but anyways.... Heh, I figured you'd post that on here. You did a good job preventing my drop, I can usually almost get at least something, but couldn't there. one of the reasons I'm working on a follow-up for when people know my strat and leave their entire army in their mineral lines. Gonna have to start mixing it up a bit more to punish that. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On September 29 2010 13:18 iEchoic wrote: Heh, I figured you'd post that on here. You did a good job preventing my drop, I can usually almost get at least something, but couldn't there. one of the reasons I'm working on a follow-up for when people know my strat and leave their entire army in their mineral lines. Gonna have to start mixing it up a bit more to punish that. They wanted a 1/1/1 replay and no one would do it against me ^_^ . Your name kinda gave away the drop hehe. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:31 Kinslayer wrote: ok...just watched it. You pretty much do the same mistakes that I do when I use this build. First off the point of this build, which gets lost to me a lot during game play, is to utilize the fact that protoss gateway units can actually fend off an early terran push while having an expo going. This lets you go to the mid game in a really good spot economically. But to make this work, you have to: - Macro REALLY well. That means probes all the time. If you watch, you'll see that your probe production specially around the time when the expo is building slows down big time. You want to have at least a full tab's worth of probes by the time that expo is done (or soon after). This way you get the economic gain you should. - You need to build units constantly in that early period. You did fine at first, but slowed down again. You missed a few waves of units that could have helped. - Transition out of the gateway units only phase when the expo is done unless there's a reason not to. I noticed that the Terran attacked you at 11 mins with a decent army. You probably could have had more units by then and even could have had a colossus out at least. You kinda did what I do, stayed on gateway units for too long and didn't even have the amount you really could have had This build is macro dependent to the extreme. It's why I too am struggling with it... my macro is just not good enough (yet) to make it work. Yea he is right you have to constantly produce units even after you have warpgate tech. once they finish cooldown warp in more. When the push comes you need to be defending until your on your feet. You can defend all day long with this build in the early game aslong as your producing units contstantly and probes. Don't chase the terran if he starts kiting go back to your base warp in more units. He wants you to follow so he can kite you. If you are marcroing properly and have added your extra gates like your suppose to and if the terran overcommits to trying to take you out with first push right around that engagement is over you should be good to go and many times you can push back and win outright. You can see and example of that in miniguns replay against Trump. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On September 29 2010 13:18 iEchoic wrote: Heh, I figured you'd post that on here. You did a good job preventing my drop, I can usually almost get at least something, but couldn't there. one of the reasons I'm working on a follow-up for when people know my strat and leave their entire army in their mineral lines. Gonna have to start mixing it up a bit more to punish that. IMO the reason your build doesn't work well vs this is that most people using kcdc's fast expo have seen your thread on this forum, lol I mean, if I ever run into you on the ladder, seeing your name is like a reminder for me to put half my units in my main. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 29 2010 23:36 iamke55 wrote: IMO the reason your build doesn't work well vs this is that most people using kcdc's fast expo have seen your thread on this forum, lol I mean, if I ever run into you on the ladder, seeing your name is like a reminder for me to put half my units in my main. IMO the reason his build doesnt work is that any good Protoss will, upon seeing a blank rax with only marines in a bunker suspect a 1/1/1 that is either a (pre-igniter) hellion drop, or (cloak) banshee play, thus always leaving some stuff in his mineral line. If that happens Terran is so far behind it's not even funny. Protoss can just sit on his ass and macro till T3 and go kill the Terran. Not a solid build since it's basically worthless if scouted / the opponent knows it's coming (i think cheese is the word for that) I really really wonder how this build fares against a good 1 basing MMM Terran like DeMuslim (his TvP gives me a hard-on). Watch this replay to see how he slowly but surely picks apart iNSoLeNCE's expansion play. The Gateway mix is very strong in a big bunch where it can keep splitting the MM with FF and use GS. http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=1726 (and against the supposed hard-counter 1 base storm: http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=1727) However when split apart and in an open field (i.e. in base), the continuous medivac healing allows the Terran, combined with the ability to just load up and leave whenever, to keep the majority of his forces alive, while the Protoss' probes, pylons and army slowly die to the constant pressure. Problem is most Terrans (and myself oftentimes too) just a-move their beautiful, mobile bio ball into the zealots with FF and GS. :/ Oh yeah and the abusive 1 rax marauder 1 fac hellion play by f.e. oGsEnsnare vs. HongunPrime is sure to put a big dent in any 1gate xy play (Hongun went 1 gate robo). | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
As for stopping the drop, it's not as simple as 'if you scout a barracks w/o an add-on, you should keep your army in your mineral line.' It could also indicate a fast expand from T which you'll want to be aggressive against or a mech play which you want to position yourself to harass. It could mean thor or battlecruiser rushes, which you'd also like ot be aggressive against. But yes, when you scout a weak ground army, you probably want to on guard for drop/air harass. On a map like Scrap Station, however, you can't be in position to shut down a drop and also be in position to pressure a FE. You have to make a choice, and you can't always get good enough scouting. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On September 30 2010 01:22 kcdc wrote: The hellion drop into banshee play against this FE can go either way, but it really comes down to the success of the hellion drop. A successful drop can even out P's economic advantage and then T's tech advantage can win the game. If the hellion does little damage, however, P will be able to macro up a big enough force to stomp the marine banshee push, and then P is in a commanding position. As for stopping the drop, it's not as simple as 'if you scout a barracks w/o an add-on, you should keep your army in your mineral line.' It could also indicate a fast expand from T which you'll want to be aggressive against or a mech play which you want to position yourself to harass. It could mean thor or battlecruiser rushes, which you'd also like ot be aggressive against. But yes, when you scout a weak ground army, you probably want to on guard for drop/air harass. On a map like Scrap Station, however, you can't be in position to shut down a drop and also be in position to pressure a FE. You have to make a choice, and you can't always get good enough scouting. Yes, if the Protoss is unsuspecting of any drop and does not scout, the drop will probably be successful. However, a good player will try to get to know what the Terran is doing and will account for several things that seem most likely depending on what he scouts. I _never_ see people Thor rushing or BC rushing after patch 1.1. Bad play, all-in and not threatening vs. a normal P army. Fast expansions NEVER have the first barracks without an addon. What has Terran mech play (which I've never ever seen recently either) to do with not keeping some units in your mineral line until you get an observer into the Terran base? Are you gonna REALLY REALLY need those 3 stalkers in your minline to harass? Also, a bunker at the front means "PLS DONT KILL ME I HAVE NO UNITS", so you can just get 3-4 production facilities up and kill the Terran or at least find out what he's doing. Also with hellion drops becoming more and more popular in TvP, more Protosses will be very aware of the possibilty, spread pylons around their base, put pylons outside of their base, pressure the T front etc. etc. I just do not think it is a solid build and relies on an element of surprise. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote: Fast expansions NEVER have the first barracks without an addon. The no-gas FE uses only one rax with no addon, so not necessarily true. The only way to completely nullify the drop is to keep literally nearly your entire army in your mineral line. However, this is really unstandard and is borderline cheesy. This will get punished by a head-on attack where you can snipe the protoss player's FE as their entire army is backed up in their main. The hellion drop vs the FE, as kcdc said, depends on a bunch of factors and can really go either way. I've beaten really good players using it and also gotten completely destroyed. It's pretty dynamic. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 30 2010 04:21 iEchoic wrote: The no-gas FE uses only one rax with no addon, so not necessarily true. The only way to completely nullify the drop is to keep literally nearly your entire army in your mineral line. However, this is really unstandard and is borderline cheesy. This will get punished by a head-on attack where you can snipe the protoss player's FE as their entire army is backed up in their main. The hellion drop vs the FE, as kcdc said, depends on a bunch of factors and can really go either way. I've beaten really good players using it and also gotten completely destroyed. It's pretty dynamic. Also, Terran can deny your scouting whether the barracks has an add-on until you have an observer which will be after the hellion drop hits. If T doesn't use the first barracks and makes 2 marines, P will have no idea whether an add-on followed the 2 marines. Unless you attack and he's forced to defend with hellions and a medivac (which happens surprisingly often in my games), it's hard to know for sure that the drop is coming. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote: What has Terran mech play (which I've never ever seen recently either) to do with not keeping some units in your mineral line until you get an observer into the Terran base? Off-topic, but I bet that a year from now, mech and bio/mech play will be more common than pure bio vs P. Bio is good in the early game before P gets AoE damage, but it's too flimsy in the late game. As P players learn to exploit the early aggression bio builds from T, I think we'll start seeing a lot more tanks and hellions. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 30 2010 04:48 kcdc wrote: Off-topic, but I bet that a year from now, mech and bio/mech play will be more common than pure bio vs P. Bio is good in the early game before P gets AoE damage, but it's too flimsy in the late game. As P players learn to exploit the early aggression bio builds from T, I think we'll start seeing a lot more tanks and hellions. I think that has a lot more to do with maps than anything, but pure mech play is not very viable at this point. Perhaps with really good refinement, scouting, and control it can work, but it's too flimsy at this stage, even if it has a lot of raw power. Larger maps with better expansion patterns favor P considerably. If P has time to appropriately response to T's attacks, bio becomes a lot less powerful. Half the reason bio is so good is because if you catch P out of position you can kill half his army before he knows what's up. Biomech definitely has potential. Storm is just not as strong in this game as it was in BW, and hellions and tanks complement a bio army really well. Tanks are great if they have a meatshield and can be used with more mobility. Hellions are amazing harassment tools and kill zealots and templar really quickly, which are the bane of bio units. Unfortunately, I think that T is so easy and PvT earlygame is so hard for P that there is little incentive to not play allin strats. Bio gives worse players a higher chance of winning the game earlier, which favors them. It's no wonder it's so widely used. I really am starting to agree with Idra that a lot of terrans win simply because it's really easy, not because they're good. | ||
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