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On October 02 2010 06:18 Roaming wrote:
@KCDC
Have you had any experience playing against the TLO style hellion/reaper opening?
I tried it for this weeks funday monday and ran into one FE protoss and rolled him (his micro was pretty awful). But it got me thinking. Could a small harass right when you're expanding put you too tight on minerals to defend follow up pressure (forcing the death of the expo).
Just curious, i couldnt randomly produce the matchup to try it out further myself.
If you kill a bunch of probes with harassment then their army will be smaller later on. This is the same against any strategy...not specific to a FE. The 2 stalkers you get early on with this build (I get a 3rd right after warp gate finishes) should be sufficient to stop reapers/hellions, it's just a matter of controlling it correctly.
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Lets ask it a different way then.
How many probes do you think you can lose before you're too far behind. 4-5 im guessing? I agree its a micro battle where protoss has the advantage. But i feel like its a gambit that you can afford to lose as terran, but the damage done cripples you as protoss. I feel like the amount of damage to cripple you is attainable. Maybe not. Seeing as how I've never seen it done to me.
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I think since you're boosting probes off 2 nexus once the expo gets going that it would be neglible unless they killed more than 8-10 probes. Chronoboosted probes come out SERIOUSLY fast and unless theyve also expanded you're gonna have a leg up on their macro, even if its less of an advantage than you had before. Maybe it creates a large enough window for them to kill you or take a 3rd?
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Im thinking of this in terms of hitting while the xpo is warping in and hitting again around the time of worker transfer to stop the second base from ever getting the chance to catch up.
Its almost a nonstop push. Either mara/hellion or marine/tank, with only a lull of 1 production cycle between them.
Edit:
In terms of how I'm seeing it. 1 reaper and hellion show up @ 2 stalkers 1 zealot, get 4 or 5 probe kills(in theory number being in question as well) then, basically 30 seconds later at the expo outside a tank and 2-3 marines show up. Reinforcements rallied. Id basically harass the front to stop you from mining it while just trying not to lose anything. Avoid a direct battle until i have a clear advantage.
At this point normally the toss player should giggle while defending and adding on gateways and the robo.
My question is, will losing several probes halt production of units and gateways long enough for me to kill the expo?
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Here's an example of this build holding off early marauder aggression as well as an eventual marauder + scv all-in. This was a ladder game vs a 1300 Diamond Terran (I'm barely a 800 Diamond Protoss noob)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153844.jpg)
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Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop.
Regarding:
On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say.
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On October 02 2010 09:16 kcdc wrote:Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop. Regarding: Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say.
4gate may be harder to stop, but imo 3 rax a failed 3rax tranisitons much easier than a failed 4 gate.
Just my opinion though.
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no offense, but somehow I feel like the terran players in the replays are really good (I see alot of mistakes I know they must be high enough diamonds but still) I use almost the same build as you (maybe exactly cause its the daynine macro toss build) But the thing I'm having trouble at with particular timing pushes, but you don't have a replay of that.
Explained: So Around the 8-9 minute mark my expo start to kick in etc, but at that time I get MMM pushes wich with less army value etc seem to annihalate my army, I didn't see any of that play in your replays so i'm wondering do you have replays like that? Cause i' m really wondering, if I survive that timing though I have 0 problem, also when they attack like in your replays I have no problem.
Thx for the reply!
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On October 02 2010 09:21 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:16 kcdc wrote:Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop. Regarding: On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say. 4gate may be harder to stop, but imo 3 rax a failed 3rax tranisitons much easier than a failed 4 gate. Just my opinion though.
Agreed. I'd rather be playing after a failed 3-rax than a failed 4-gate, but in either case, you're pretty far behind. But if I had to beat a platinum player in 10 minutes or less to save my life, I'd take 4-gate every time.
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On October 02 2010 09:28 JDeathmetal wrote:
no offense, but somehow I feel like the terran players in the replays are really good (I see alot of mistakes I know they must be high enough diamonds but still) I use almost the same build as you (maybe exactly cause its the daynine macro toss build) But the thing I'm having trouble at with particular timing pushes, but you don't have a replay of that.
Explained: So Around the 8-9 minute mark my expo start to kick in etc, but at that time I get MMM pushes wich with less army value etc seem to annihalate my army, I didn't see any of that play in your replays so i'm wondering do you have replays like that? Cause i' m really wondering, if I survive that timing though I have 0 problem, also when they attack like in your replays I have no problem.
Thx for the reply!
Some people rush out collosi to deal with that push. I tech veeeerrrry slowly toward HT and just defend the push by using the gas I save from delaying my tech to get extra sentries. A big zealot/sentry army with good FF's can hold even well-controlled MMM. The trick is just getting the good forcefields....
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On October 02 2010 09:21 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:16 kcdc wrote:Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop. Regarding: On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say. 4gate may be harder to stop, but imo 3 rax a failed 3rax tranisitons much easier than a failed 4 gate. Just my opinion though.
Ok, enough on 4 gate vs 3 rax. I played this PvT where I went 2 gas, and had stalker sentry zealot. I forgot to guardian shield and just FF'd, so I was pushed back basically up my ramp untill I could reinforce. I defended the push, but not before a bunch of stimmed marines came down and raped my probes. At that point, I was slightly behind as he kept pressuring and expo'd.
I went for charge and templar. He went for thor marine, which gave me some serious problems. scvs make thors regen like burrowed roaches, and the marines just dish out general rape. Thors are also quite the shit against zealots compared to marauders, they 3 shot zealots (and stalkers). The thors replaced some of the bio, so storms were less effective. Feedback actually does pretty pathetic damage. I got some immortals, but emp'd immortals go down absurdly fast to thors.
Anyone have had any experience or success against thor bio?
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On October 02 2010 09:32 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:21 Minigun wrote:On October 02 2010 09:16 kcdc wrote:Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop. Regarding: On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say. 4gate may be harder to stop, but imo 3 rax a failed 3rax tranisitons much easier than a failed 4 gate. Just my opinion though. Ok, enough on 4 gate vs 3 rax. I played this PvT where I went 2 gas, and had stalker sentry zealot. I forgot to guardian shield and just FF'd, so I was pushed back basically up my ramp untill I could reinforce. I defended the push, but not before a bunch of stimmed marines came down and raped my probes. At that point, I was slightly behind as he kept pressuring and expo'd. I went for charge and templar. He went for thor marine, which gave me some serious problems. scvs make thors regen like burrowed roaches, and the marines just dish out general rape. Thors are also quite the shit against zealots compared to marauders, they 3 shot zealots (and stalkers). The thors replaced some of the bio, so storms were less effective. Feedback actually does pretty pathetic damage. I got some immortals, but emp'd immortals go down absurdly fast to thors. Anyone have had any experience or success against thor bio?
I've contributed plenty to this thread, if I want to respond to a comment in it I will.
And you want us to tell you what you did wrong without a replay?...
Thors are awful TvP, if you lost vs thors, you are doing something wrong.
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On October 02 2010 09:28 JDeathmetal wrote:
no offense, but somehow I feel like the terran players in the replays are really good (I see alot of mistakes I know they must be high enough diamonds but still) I use almost the same build as you (maybe exactly cause its the daynine macro toss build) But the thing I'm having trouble at with particular timing pushes, but you don't have a replay of that.
Explained: So Around the 8-9 minute mark my expo start to kick in etc, but at that time I get MMM pushes wich with less army value etc seem to annihalate my army, I didn't see any of that play in your replays so i'm wondering do you have replays like that? Cause i' m really wondering, if I survive that timing though I have 0 problem, also when they attack like in your replays I have no problem.
Thx for the reply!
Pull probes. Like, immediately, before your army even takes any shots. I don't know if other people have had the same experience, but when I watch my replays PvT using this build I'm typically ahead by like 10 workers against barracks pushes even shortly after the expo is up, and can replenish workers MUCH faster with 2x nexus and 2x chrono. Having 8-10 probes to tank shots for your army allows your zealots to get hits in because they're slowed less, while also allowing your stalkers to get a ton of shots off without your army even being hurt.
Note: I need to do this because I pretty much never cut double probe production against anything. I feel that this is better in the long run because if the Terran ends up not pushing you have a ridiculous economy up, and if they do push your extra probes can act as part of your army and you still end up ahead in econ. It's also possible to defend pretty much any push without pulling workers if you scout properly and cut probes to pump more army units.
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@ the bickering above, it really doesn't solve anything. Thors are perfectly viable in TvP given the right situation.
Also if you're going to describe an outcome, post a replay. Otherwise blind comments and speculation really don't add anything constructive to the thread.
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With that said on another note, since there was such a taking to the other games I posted and reference I have a new one.
Horizontal spawns at metal. 2 rax early stim
Game plays out well both make some mistakes (I end up making alot more).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153936.jpg)
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There really isn't a viable time for a thor TvP...there is a reason you never see them.
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On October 02 2010 10:33 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:28 JDeathmetal wrote:
no offense, but somehow I feel like the terran players in the replays are really good (I see alot of mistakes I know they must be high enough diamonds but still) I use almost the same build as you (maybe exactly cause its the daynine macro toss build) But the thing I'm having trouble at with particular timing pushes, but you don't have a replay of that.
Explained: So Around the 8-9 minute mark my expo start to kick in etc, but at that time I get MMM pushes wich with less army value etc seem to annihalate my army, I didn't see any of that play in your replays so i'm wondering do you have replays like that? Cause i' m really wondering, if I survive that timing though I have 0 problem, also when they attack like in your replays I have no problem.
Thx for the reply! Pull probes. Like, immediately, before your army even takes any shots. I don't know if other people have had the same experience, but when I watch my replays PvT using this build I'm typically ahead by like 10 workers against barracks pushes even shortly after the expo is up, and can replenish workers MUCH faster with 2x nexus and 2x chrono. Having 8-10 probes to tank shots for your army allows your zealots to get hits in because they're slowed less, while also allowing your stalkers to get a ton of shots off without your army even being hurt. Note: I need to do this because I pretty much never cut double probe production against anything. I feel that this is better in the long run because if the Terran ends up not pushing you have a ridiculous economy up, and if they do push your extra probes can act as part of your army and you still end up ahead in econ. It's also possible to defend pretty much any push without pulling workers if you scout properly and cut probes to pump more army units.
This does not work well for me. By this time T has stim which eat my probes alive in seconds + he can retreat with ease if things go wrong which they dont in most cases cause of the bigger army size. A fast collosus is better in my opinion but its easily countered by the vikings they prepare after that first push. I would really like to see this slow templar tech that kcdc is mentioning. I never get them out in time.
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On October 02 2010 17:33 Gandis wrote:
This does not work well for me. By this time T has stim which eat my probes alive in seconds + he can retreat with ease if things go wrong which they dont in most cases cause of the bigger army size. A fast collosus is better in my opinion but its easily countered by the vikings they prepare after that first push. I would really like to see this slow templar tech that kcdc is mentioning. I never get them out in time.
Dunno what to tell you dude, I'm pretty sure I get templar tech at a similar speed as what kcdc describes, and you just have to hold off the first couple pushes without storms. Just using gateway units and immortals as well as pulled probes has held off countless barracks pushes for me against 1200-1600 diamond players.
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On October 02 2010 17:33 Gandis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 10:33 Shifft wrote:On October 02 2010 09:28 JDeathmetal wrote:
no offense, but somehow I feel like the terran players in the replays are really good (I see alot of mistakes I know they must be high enough diamonds but still) I use almost the same build as you (maybe exactly cause its the daynine macro toss build) But the thing I'm having trouble at with particular timing pushes, but you don't have a replay of that.
Explained: So Around the 8-9 minute mark my expo start to kick in etc, but at that time I get MMM pushes wich with less army value etc seem to annihalate my army, I didn't see any of that play in your replays so i'm wondering do you have replays like that? Cause i' m really wondering, if I survive that timing though I have 0 problem, also when they attack like in your replays I have no problem.
Thx for the reply! Pull probes. Like, immediately, before your army even takes any shots. I don't know if other people have had the same experience, but when I watch my replays PvT using this build I'm typically ahead by like 10 workers against barracks pushes even shortly after the expo is up, and can replenish workers MUCH faster with 2x nexus and 2x chrono. Having 8-10 probes to tank shots for your army allows your zealots to get hits in because they're slowed less, while also allowing your stalkers to get a ton of shots off without your army even being hurt. Note: I need to do this because I pretty much never cut double probe production against anything. I feel that this is better in the long run because if the Terran ends up not pushing you have a ridiculous economy up, and if they do push your extra probes can act as part of your army and you still end up ahead in econ. It's also possible to defend pretty much any push without pulling workers if you scout properly and cut probes to pump more army units. This does not work well for me. By this time T has stim which eat my probes alive in seconds + he can retreat with ease if things go wrong which they dont in most cases cause of the bigger army size. A fast collosus is better in my opinion but its easily countered by the vikings they prepare after that first push. I would really like to see this slow templar tech that kcdc is mentioning. I never get them out in time.
Then you are doing something wrong, if terran eats your probes that fast, he still has a reasonable sized army, which means you had a pretty bad one. Post a replay.
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On October 02 2010 09:53 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:32 Chronopolis wrote:On October 02 2010 09:21 Minigun wrote:On October 02 2010 09:16 kcdc wrote:Ooh, people getting testy in the thread about 4 gate. 4-gate is a strong, easily executed but beatable all-in. Everyone expects it, so at high levels, it's not good. 3-rax is almost as all-in as 4-gate. If the 3-rax doesn't kill the FE, it's game over for T. There's not much else to say about 4-gate or 3-rax. They're similar styles. I actually think 4-gate is the stronger build because it's much harder to stop. Regarding: On September 30 2010 06:16 ChickenLips wrote:
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
A lot of Terran players don't put their barracks at the front. More than 50% I'd say. 4gate may be harder to stop, but imo 3 rax a failed 3rax tranisitons much easier than a failed 4 gate. Just my opinion though. Ok, enough on 4 gate vs 3 rax. I played this PvT where I went 2 gas, and had stalker sentry zealot. I forgot to guardian shield and just FF'd, so I was pushed back basically up my ramp untill I could reinforce. I defended the push, but not before a bunch of stimmed marines came down and raped my probes. At that point, I was slightly behind as he kept pressuring and expo'd. I went for charge and templar. He went for thor marine, which gave me some serious problems. scvs make thors regen like burrowed roaches, and the marines just dish out general rape. Thors are also quite the shit against zealots compared to marauders, they 3 shot zealots (and stalkers). The thors replaced some of the bio, so storms were less effective. Feedback actually does pretty pathetic damage. I got some immortals, but emp'd immortals go down absurdly fast to thors. Anyone have had any experience or success against thor bio? I've contributed plenty to this thread, if I want to respond to a comment in it I will. And you want us to tell you what you did wrong without a replay?... Thors are awful TvP, if you lost vs thors, you are doing something wrong.
I wasn't critisizing your post specifically. And I disagree that thors are crap in tvp.
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@kcdc I have yet to try this build out, but after examining my play in general recently, I feel I need to expand more. So I'm giving this BO a shot.
Just a quick question though, how does this BO fair against the banshee+ravenPDD+marine rush? I can hold off a maurader push, but I'm constantly losing to this new Terran build.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154113.jpg)
