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On September 30 2010 05:00 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 04:48 kcdc wrote:On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote:
What has Terran mech play (which I've never ever seen recently either) to do with not keeping some units in your mineral line until you get an observer into the Terran base? Off-topic, but I bet that a year from now, mech and bio/mech play will be more common than pure bio vs P. Bio is good in the early game before P gets AoE damage, but it's too flimsy in the late game. As P players learn to exploit the early aggression bio builds from T, I think we'll start seeing a lot more tanks and hellions. I think that has a lot more to do with maps than anything, but pure mech play is not very viable at this point. Perhaps with really good refinement, scouting, and control it can work, but it's too flimsy at this stage, even if it has a lot of raw power. Larger maps with better expansion patterns favor P considerably. If P has time to appropriately response to T's attacks, bio becomes a lot less powerful. Half the reason bio is so good is because if you catch P out of position you can kill half his army before he knows what's up. Biomech definitely has potential. Storm is just not as strong in this game as it was in BW, and hellions and tanks complement a bio army really well. Tanks are great if they have a meatshield and can be used with more mobility. Hellions are amazing harassment tools and kill zealots and templar really quickly, which are the bane of bio units. Unfortunately, I think that T is so easy and PvT earlygame is so hard for P that there is little incentive to not play allin strats. Bio gives worse players a higher chance of winning the game earlier, which favors them. It's no wonder it's so widely used. I really am starting to agree with Idra that a lot of terrans win simply because it's really easy, not because they're good.
Yeah, I think we'll always see a healthy complement of marines in any T strategy. As long as P has void rays, T will make marines. I just think we'll start to see T strategies start to diverge between marauder play annoying Protoss players with lots of cutesy drops and tank play focusing on macro, defense and slow pushes.
3-rax is a dead end opening for which any decent Protoss player will have a response built into their build.
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On September 30 2010 04:21 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote:On September 30 2010 01:22 kcdc wrote:
The hellion drop into banshee play against this FE can go either way, but it really comes down to the success of the hellion drop. A successful drop can even out P's economic advantage and then T's tech advantage can win the game. If the hellion does little damage, however, P will be able to macro up a big enough force to stomp the marine banshee push, and then P is in a commanding position.
As for stopping the drop, it's not as simple as 'if you scout a barracks w/o an add-on, you should keep your army in your mineral line.' It could also indicate a fast expand from T which you'll want to be aggressive against or a mech play which you want to position yourself to harass. It could mean thor or battlecruiser rushes, which you'd also like ot be aggressive against.
But yes, when you scout a weak ground army, you probably want to on guard for drop/air harass. On a map like Scrap Station, however, you can't be in position to shut down a drop and also be in position to pressure a FE. You have to make a choice, and you can't always get good enough scouting. Fast expansions NEVER have the first barracks without an addon. The no-gas FE uses only one rax with no addon, so not necessarily true. Also you see the lack of gas while scouting. The only way to completely nullify the drop is to keep literally nearly your entire army in your mineral line. However, this is really unstandard and is borderline cheesy. This will get punished by a head-on attack where you can snipe the protoss player's FE as their entire army is backed up in their main. The hellion drop vs the FE, as kcdc said, depends on a bunch of factors and can really go either way. I've beaten really good players using it and also gotten completely destroyed. It's pretty dynamic.
There isn't a single notable Terran player who does a no-gas FE. Build of the past.
How is suspecting a drop and keeping your army in your mineral line cheesy? Yeah of course, if you have 0 units anywhere but in your mineral line and don't protect your FE with anything and then don't scout for incoming armies and don't control the Xel'naga Towers, you're gonna lose your expansion, but why do you try to keep coming up with these bad plays / bad builds where the drop is gonna do damage? A solid build and good awareness by protoss and the drop puts you behind, since you're at 6 minutes into the game and all you have is a 3 hellions and 7 marines.
Minigun kept 3 stalkers in his base and your drop cost you a hellion and did 0 damage. 3 Stalkers isn't much of an army.
Yeah those are the characteristics of cheesy builds: Manages to beat a few good players, get completely destroyed other times. This build could do well if it was merged into a bio build. Like day9 said, straight dropping isn't good. Protoss can just sit there and kill the drop. It's better to pressure with an army and then drop since it requires quite a lot of APM by the defender to fend off both threats without losing a lot of stuff.
On September 30 2010 04:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 04:21 iEchoic wrote:On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote:On September 30 2010 01:22 kcdc wrote:
The hellion drop into banshee play against this FE can go either way, but it really comes down to the success of the hellion drop. A successful drop can even out P's economic advantage and then T's tech advantage can win the game. If the hellion does little damage, however, P will be able to macro up a big enough force to stomp the marine banshee push, and then P is in a commanding position.
As for stopping the drop, it's not as simple as 'if you scout a barracks w/o an add-on, you should keep your army in your mineral line.' It could also indicate a fast expand from T which you'll want to be aggressive against or a mech play which you want to position yourself to harass. It could mean thor or battlecruiser rushes, which you'd also like ot be aggressive against.
But yes, when you scout a weak ground army, you probably want to on guard for drop/air harass. On a map like Scrap Station, however, you can't be in position to shut down a drop and also be in position to pressure a FE. You have to make a choice, and you can't always get good enough scouting. Fast expansions NEVER have the first barracks without an addon. The no-gas FE uses only one rax with no addon, so not necessarily true. The only way to completely nullify the drop is to keep literally nearly your entire army in your mineral line. However, this is really unstandard and is borderline cheesy. This will get punished by a head-on attack where you can snipe the protoss player's FE as their entire army is backed up in their main. The hellion drop vs the FE, as kcdc said, depends on a bunch of factors and can really go either way. I've beaten really good players using it and also gotten completely destroyed. It's pretty dynamic. Also, Terran can deny your scouting whether the barracks has an add-on until you have an observer which will be after the hellion drop hits. If T doesn't use the first barracks and makes 2 marines, P will have no idea whether an add-on followed the 2 marines. Unless you attack and he's forced to defend with hellions and a medivac (which happens surprisingly often in my games), it's hard to know for sure that the drop is coming.
On September 30 2010 04:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 04:21 iEchoic wrote:On September 30 2010 03:43 ChickenLips wrote:On September 30 2010 01:22 kcdc wrote:
The hellion drop into banshee play against this FE can go either way, but it really comes down to the success of the hellion drop. A successful drop can even out P's economic advantage and then T's tech advantage can win the game. If the hellion does little damage, however, P will be able to macro up a big enough force to stomp the marine banshee push, and then P is in a commanding position.
As for stopping the drop, it's not as simple as 'if you scout a barracks w/o an add-on, you should keep your army in your mineral line.' It could also indicate a fast expand from T which you'll want to be aggressive against or a mech play which you want to position yourself to harass. It could mean thor or battlecruiser rushes, which you'd also like ot be aggressive against.
But yes, when you scout a weak ground army, you probably want to on guard for drop/air harass. On a map like Scrap Station, however, you can't be in position to shut down a drop and also be in position to pressure a FE. You have to make a choice, and you can't always get good enough scouting. Fast expansions NEVER have the first barracks without an addon. The no-gas FE uses only one rax with no addon, so not necessarily true. The only way to completely nullify the drop is to keep literally nearly your entire army in your mineral line. However, this is really unstandard and is borderline cheesy. This will get punished by a head-on attack where you can snipe the protoss player's FE as their entire army is backed up in their main. The hellion drop vs the FE, as kcdc said, depends on a bunch of factors and can really go either way. I've beaten really good players using it and also gotten completely destroyed. It's pretty dynamic. Also, Terran can deny your scouting whether the barracks has an add-on until you have an observer which will be after the hellion drop hits. If T doesn't use the first barracks and makes 2 marines, P will have no idea whether an add-on followed the 2 marines. Unless you attack and he's forced to defend with hellions and a medivac (which happens surprisingly often in my games), it's hard to know for sure that the drop is coming.
Uhh.. You can always scout the add on if its at the front.
Send your first zealot. It will get there before concussive is done so you can just take shield damage and retreat. Or you can suicide it and make 100% sure to see everything.
Or send your first stalker. It will get there and will not die to concussive (if it's done) if you take care microing.
Exactly just take a poke at him with your first few units. He will have to pull his hellions if he doesn't want to lose a lot of SCVs. Easy tactic that gives you a lot of intel.
Bio mech is already standard in mid and lategame vs. Protoss (I watch a lot of professional T replays). Pure mech sucks so hard it's not even funny vs Protoss. Infinite mobility (warp in) vs. very very low mobility just opens up way too many possibilities for Protoss DT / zealot / HT / Phoenix / Void Ray / blink stalker / immortal drop / etc harass to be viable and executable without perfect gameplay.
Unfortunately, I think that P is so easy and TvP lategame is so hard for T that there is little incentive to not play allin strats. 4 gate gives worse players a higher chance of winning the game earlier, which favors them. It's no wonder it's so widely used. I really am starting to agree with everybody that a lot of protoss win simply because it's really easy, not because they're good.
FTFY 
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I'm a lower level player (high platinum) and had some problems with this build. Namely, once I get my expansion up, what would be some reasonable mid-game transitions? I have been building 2 more gateways immediately after expanding, but I have a tough time figuring out where to go from there (4-5warp gate and push? templar tech? stargates? colossi?) Are there any particular mid game transitions that this build is nicely suited for that I should be trying? I assume that the best transition depends on what I scout (bio, mech, starports). In particular, starport play confounds me. I always feel like I should respond with stargate, but that doesn't seem to go over too well when I try it.
Here is a replay where I FE and planned to go colossi (I know this is my first mistake, given that I saw marauders, but hindsight is 20/20 and I am still fairly noob). I defended the expansion against a 1rax 4 concussive marauder push (not too scary, the timings work out well), and at a lack of ideas as to what to do next just plopped down a robo for the observer.
I believe my first and a half mistake was that after defending the marauder push I didn't at least poke my head in to see what he has. I always struggle with knowing when to push and when to defend, but I think I'll have to try pushing out after defending T's initial attack next time I play.
I end up scouting banshees with my observer, and this is where things fall apart. I get phoenixes to deal with banshees, and decide to attack once my colossi came out. Unfortunately, he built missile turrets, killing my observer and phoenixes. At this point I was way behind, and I am sure that I made tons of mistakes (like throwing away my entire army on battlecruisers) but I would like more advice on the earlier decision making so I can avoid getting into the bad position to begin with.
Thanks!
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TBH at the non-pro level this build from the OP has changed the wy this matchup is viewed by almost everyone. Protoss were once complaining about terrans uncounterable maphacks and now can say, okay scan me, look at my expansion even, now do something about it to kill me before mid-game. Now I hear alot of "psi storm" is OP from my terran practice partners and now theyre having to come up with clever ways to punish the fast expand, which isnt easy to punish at all. Practicing and using the build has gotten me so used to defending against early pressure and drops that I seldom lose to either of them and really only lose to terrans which outplay me. I have only lost a handful of games with this build its really great for a late-game minded player to know that you can hold early aggression with this build and some decent micro.
@ chickenlips... 3 rax bio push is the cheese equivalent of a 4 gate for all intents and purposes.. I dont think either are cheesey, but I choose not to 4 gate unless its in response to what I scout because its a boring strategy and Id much rather play for the mid-late game to develop as a player. Against some openers from other people you would simply be stupid not to 4-gate
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On October 01 2010 07:14 Jayrod wrote:
TBH at the non-pro level this build from the OP has changed the wy this matchup is viewed by almost everyone. Protoss were once complaining about terrans uncounterable maphacks and now can say, okay scan me, look at my expansion even, now do something about it to kill me before mid-game. Now I hear alot of "psi storm" is OP from my terran practice partners and now theyre having to come up with clever ways to punish the fast expand, which isnt easy to punish at all. Practicing and using the build has gotten me so used to defending against early pressure and drops that I seldom lose to either of them and really only lose to terrans which outplay me. I have only lost a handful of games with this build its really great for a late-game minded player to know that you can hold early aggression with this build and some decent micro.
@ chickenlips... 3 rax bio push is the cheese equivalent of a 4 gate for all intents and purposes.. I dont think either are cheesey, but I choose not to 4 gate unless its in response to what I scout because its a boring strategy and Id much rather play for the mid-late game to develop as a player. Against some openers from other people you would simply be stupid not to 4-gate
3 Rax can be supported by 1 base, 4 gate cannot. 3 rax transitions into tech or an expansion much better and more smoothly than 4 gate does and while I've seen a lot of good 3rax builds that have a plan for mid and late game, everytime i see a 4 gate its gg by either player in the first 8 minutes of the game.
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I supposed I just dont understand how it transitions better. is it because you are limited by production time from the buildings and so have an excess of minerals? Some people that 4 gate dont throw their units away stupidly and have an army to defend if they need to cut units and throw down the expo. I think both strats are tired anyways.
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This is a strong strategy. Having a lot of success at a 1000ish Diamond level.
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On October 01 2010 07:24 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:14 Jayrod wrote:
TBH at the non-pro level this build from the OP has changed the wy this matchup is viewed by almost everyone. Protoss were once complaining about terrans uncounterable maphacks and now can say, okay scan me, look at my expansion even, now do something about it to kill me before mid-game. Now I hear alot of "psi storm" is OP from my terran practice partners and now theyre having to come up with clever ways to punish the fast expand, which isnt easy to punish at all. Practicing and using the build has gotten me so used to defending against early pressure and drops that I seldom lose to either of them and really only lose to terrans which outplay me. I have only lost a handful of games with this build its really great for a late-game minded player to know that you can hold early aggression with this build and some decent micro.
@ chickenlips... 3 rax bio push is the cheese equivalent of a 4 gate for all intents and purposes.. I dont think either are cheesey, but I choose not to 4 gate unless its in response to what I scout because its a boring strategy and Id much rather play for the mid-late game to develop as a player. Against some openers from other people you would simply be stupid not to 4-gate 3 Rax can be supported by 1 base, 4 gate cannot. 3 rax transitions into tech or an expansion much better and more smoothly than 4 gate does and while I've seen a lot of good 3rax builds that have a plan for mid and late game, everytime i see a 4 gate its gg by either player in the first 8 minutes of the game.
this is just completely untrue, i mean, if 4-gate couldn't be supported on one base then people wouldn't 4-gate they would just... 3-gate. they certainly wouldn't make 5 gateways which is relatively common in pvp. in addition to this, its very very easy to expand with 4 gateways to protect you and if you think having 3 barracks means you're ahead in tech compared to a player with 4 gateways... well i guess i don't know what to tell you, because thats kind of sad.
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On October 02 2010 04:35 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:24 ChickenLips wrote:On October 01 2010 07:14 Jayrod wrote:
TBH at the non-pro level this build from the OP has changed the wy this matchup is viewed by almost everyone. Protoss were once complaining about terrans uncounterable maphacks and now can say, okay scan me, look at my expansion even, now do something about it to kill me before mid-game. Now I hear alot of "psi storm" is OP from my terran practice partners and now theyre having to come up with clever ways to punish the fast expand, which isnt easy to punish at all. Practicing and using the build has gotten me so used to defending against early pressure and drops that I seldom lose to either of them and really only lose to terrans which outplay me. I have only lost a handful of games with this build its really great for a late-game minded player to know that you can hold early aggression with this build and some decent micro.
@ chickenlips... 3 rax bio push is the cheese equivalent of a 4 gate for all intents and purposes.. I dont think either are cheesey, but I choose not to 4 gate unless its in response to what I scout because its a boring strategy and Id much rather play for the mid-late game to develop as a player. Against some openers from other people you would simply be stupid not to 4-gate 3 Rax can be supported by 1 base, 4 gate cannot. 3 rax transitions into tech or an expansion much better and more smoothly than 4 gate does and while I've seen a lot of good 3rax builds that have a plan for mid and late game, everytime i see a 4 gate its gg by either player in the first 8 minutes of the game. this is just completely untrue, i mean, if 4-gate couldn't be supported on one base then people wouldn't 4-gate they would just... 3-gate. they certainly wouldn't make 5 gateways which is relatively common in pvp. in addition to this, its very very easy to expand with 4 gateways to protect you and if you think having 3 barracks means you're ahead in tech compared to a player with 4 gateways... well i guess i don't know what to tell you, because thats kind of sad.
And you're wrong. Even without making probes and CBing, you can't nonstop make out of 4 gateways. You just don't have the money on 1 base. People add the extra gateways for stronger warp in at the proxy pylon and for the extra surge when warp gates finish.
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On October 02 2010 04:56 Roaming wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 04:35 rycho wrote:On October 01 2010 07:24 ChickenLips wrote:On October 01 2010 07:14 Jayrod wrote:
TBH at the non-pro level this build from the OP has changed the wy this matchup is viewed by almost everyone. Protoss were once complaining about terrans uncounterable maphacks and now can say, okay scan me, look at my expansion even, now do something about it to kill me before mid-game. Now I hear alot of "psi storm" is OP from my terran practice partners and now theyre having to come up with clever ways to punish the fast expand, which isnt easy to punish at all. Practicing and using the build has gotten me so used to defending against early pressure and drops that I seldom lose to either of them and really only lose to terrans which outplay me. I have only lost a handful of games with this build its really great for a late-game minded player to know that you can hold early aggression with this build and some decent micro.
@ chickenlips... 3 rax bio push is the cheese equivalent of a 4 gate for all intents and purposes.. I dont think either are cheesey, but I choose not to 4 gate unless its in response to what I scout because its a boring strategy and Id much rather play for the mid-late game to develop as a player. Against some openers from other people you would simply be stupid not to 4-gate 3 Rax can be supported by 1 base, 4 gate cannot. 3 rax transitions into tech or an expansion much better and more smoothly than 4 gate does and while I've seen a lot of good 3rax builds that have a plan for mid and late game, everytime i see a 4 gate its gg by either player in the first 8 minutes of the game. this is just completely untrue, i mean, if 4-gate couldn't be supported on one base then people wouldn't 4-gate they would just... 3-gate. they certainly wouldn't make 5 gateways which is relatively common in pvp. in addition to this, its very very easy to expand with 4 gateways to protect you and if you think having 3 barracks means you're ahead in tech compared to a player with 4 gateways... well i guess i don't know what to tell you, because thats kind of sad. And you're wrong. Even without making probes and CBing, you can't nonstop make out of 4 gateways. You just don't have the money on 1 base. People add the extra gateways for stronger warp in at the proxy pylon and for the extra surge when warp gates finish.
4 zealots is 400 minerals every 28 ingame seconds, or 857 minerals/minute, which is around what you get on one base (check the income tab). this is with FLAWLESS macro, and even the best players in the world miss their warp gate cooldown by half a second pretty often just due to lag, and this stacks up over time. if you only make three gateways your money piles up if you don't expand quickly because you can't spend it fast enough, which is why people make 4. this is also without making a single gas unit, which negates all the income you get from gas. if you're going to post stuff like this, at least please do the math and know what you're talking about, because your posts have just been flat-out misinformation =/
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You didn't take pylons into account. And you're still wrong.
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Roaming, you forgot "And for when their macro slips"
-Cross
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thats because your units often die when you're constantly attacking with four gateways, if you just four-gate and sit there you're probably going to lose anyway. do you honestly believe the excess gas income i completely left out of the equation (i think this is something like 240/minute) isn't enough to account for pylons? (obviously this would be converted into gas units so the minerals would go towards pylons).
another thing you may not be sharp enough to realize is that if one base can only support something like 3.5 or 3.2 gateways, you still have to go to four because if not, your money piles up. its sort of comical that you honestly think everyone builds four gateways on one base when you can't produce out of all of them, as if you have some sort of secret knowledge the protoss community hasn't yet figured out.
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On October 02 2010 05:20 rycho wrote:
thats because your units often die when you're constantly attacking with four gateways, if you just four-gate and sit there you're probably going to lose anyway. do you honestly believe the excess gas income i completely left out of the equation (i think this is something like 240/minute) isn't enough to account for pylons? (obviously this would be converted into gas units so the minerals would go towards pylons).
another thing you may not be sharp enough to realize is that if one base can only support something like 3.5 or 3.2 gateways, you still have to go to four because if not, your money piles up. its sort of comical that you honestly think everyone builds four gateways on one base when you can't produce out of all of them, as if you have some sort of secret knowledge the protoss community hasn't yet figured out.
You live in a dream world. After high school, maybe you'll learn that other people understand things that you don't. And its not your fault. We all can't be blessed with average intelligence.
The situation you describe never comes up in a game.
30 probes on one base 4-warpgate, no other teching plans, no proxy pylons to warp in, army constantly dying off at a rate you produce it at, and you STILL arent spending crono boosts.
But you're telling me I'm not sharp enough to see whats going on.
My secret knowledge is that I actually play the game and see what you can do and why. Not just theorycraft and whine about it because im repressed.
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On October 02 2010 05:20 rycho wrote:
thats because your units often die when you're constantly attacking with four gateways, if you just four-gate and sit there you're probably going to lose anyway. do you honestly believe the excess gas income i completely left out of the equation (i think this is something like 240/minute) isn't enough to account for pylons? (obviously this would be converted into gas units so the minerals would go towards pylons).
another thing you may not be sharp enough to realize is that if one base can only support something like 3.5 or 3.2 gateways, you still have to go to four because if not, your money piles up. its sort of comical that you honestly think everyone builds four gateways on one base when you can't produce out of all of them, as if you have some sort of secret knowledge the protoss community hasn't yet figured out.
Godammit the fucking retardation in some people.
Please keep your 4 gate defense out of this thread that actually features a build that is worth the discussion.
Here, play around with this site and come back a smarter man:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.php
4 gate is allin, you can ALMOST support it if you constantly suicide your units AND dont make any probes AND dont make any pylons. Maybe you will find some exceptions but I really dont care, its such a stupid build and there's a reason why exactly 0 pros use it.
I also wonder how you are gonna convert those 2 gas geysers into mineral patches. Or are you gonna distance mine your natural to afford the 4 gate production?
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TBH I see alot of 4 gaters throw in sentries when they can so they can expand. The ones that pump only stalkers from 4 gates or mostly stalkers with zeals are the ones that can never expand. Sentries make it possible to expand with their 50 mineral cost. 4 gate is not all in but it sure doesnt set you up for the midgame very nicely.
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4 zealots would be 400 minerals every 28 seconds, or 857 minerals per minute
4 sentries would be 200 minerals and 400 gas every 32 seconds, or 357 minerals per minute and 714 gas per minute
so, if you warp in 3 zealots and a sentry precisely on cooldown with flawless macro every single time your gates are up, you are looking at 731 minerals per minute and 178 gas per minute, both of these are significantly below what you make on one base. yes, probes and pylons both cost more minerals, but seeing as you aren't always looking to expand and you are often in combat with this strategy so you save a lot on pylons, you build four gateways to account for this.
i guess if i had didn't have the basic math and/or reasoning skill to figure out something so simple, or the in-game experience actually using this strategy, i would make misinformed posts as well (well, i probably wouldn't be so obnoxious as to pretend i had some idea what i was talking about). what i wouldn't do, however, is ignore someone clearly brighter than myself trying to correct me and help me out, which is what you're doing =/
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I also wonder how you are gonna convert those 2 gas geysers into mineral patches. Or are you gonna distance mine your natural to afford the 4 gate production?
hahaha god some people don't get it even when you spell it out for them
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On October 02 2010 05:40 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +I also wonder how you are gonna convert those 2 gas geysers into mineral patches. Or are you gonna distance mine your natural to afford the 4 gate production? hahaha god some people don't get it even when you spell it out for them
I think we have both made our points. Let this go back to the original topic please.
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@KCDC
Have you had any experience playing against the TLO style hellion/reaper opening?
I tried it for this weeks funday monday and ran into one FE protoss and rolled him (his micro was pretty awful). But it got me thinking. Could a small harass right when you're expanding put you too tight on minerals to defend follow up pressure (forcing the death of the expo).
Just curious, i couldnt randomly produce the matchup to try it out further myself.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153566.jpg)
