EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 37
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slained
Canada966 Posts
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Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:02 PsychedelicMonk wrote: @kcdc I have yet to try this build out, but after examining my play in general recently, I feel I need to expand more. So I'm giving this BO a shot. Just a quick question though, how does this BO fair against the banshee+ravenPDD+marine rush? I can hold off a maurader push, but I'm constantly losing to this new Terran build. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153170.jpg) Few pages back. | ||
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shenzu88
48 Posts
Been using the KCDC Fe build and I just have a question against a build I've been facing occasionally. I fast expand the terran double starports and goes banshee+vikings+raven I know there's a huge timing window where I should have attacked but when my first obs reaches his base the raven is already out and kills my obs. I understand that one should try to push forward and try to make him waste his PDD but he attacked from my side, by the time I got there he already set 3 PDD. He later transitioned to BC and I lost. I've faced the banshee + viking strike, sometimes with scans to kill the obs. Please comment for some help please I'm 1500 P and the terran was around the same. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=154251 | ||
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PsychedelicMonk
27 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:47 PsychedelicMonk wrote: Thanks Minigun, that replay really shows the versatility of this build. It didn't exactly answer my question, though, about the raven+banshee+marine timing push. There's another thread on TL about it, when they get to your base at around 10 minutes. If you stumble upon it on the ladders, please let me know. The marine-banshee-raven push is just plain hard to stop with any build. This particular build may actually be weaker than some others because you can't get storm in time, and it's tricky to get phoenixes in time. Just focus on getting that observer to T's base early and respond with phoenixes if you see starport+tech lab. You can win, but I think it's one of the more difficult pushes to deal with. | ||
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DarthLeader
Canada123 Posts
On August 10 2010 22:10 kcdc wrote: If this thread attracts more attention, I'll expand on this in the OP, but early marauders are actually really easy to handle with zealot+stalker IMO. (and reapers are actually even easier) Use mostly zealots with just a stalker or 2 to hit the marauders as they kite. Retreat your stalker(s) as your zealots are about to die, but don't bother retreating with the zealots if you know they can't get away. If there's a hill outside your natural like on Steppes, you can pretty easily keep your zealots alive through his push, and then counter-push. These "rally every unit you ever made into my base" games are the ones that I wind up winning off of one gateway. You definitely have my attention, don't be shy to expend in the OP !!!!! I LOVE your PvP 2 gate FE btw ! Do you also happen to have a GG PvZ build ??? | ||
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SaintsTheMetal
United States45 Posts
good replay, but while that may be iEchoic, that's not the super popular iEchoic build everyone's been doing. this (imho much tougher) push comes a full 3 minutes earlier (i've seen it as early as 10:30ish), with twice as many marines (25 or so), hellions, ~5-6 banshees, a Raven instead of ghost, and the original medivac for for the hellion drop. i think this is the hardest push of any to hold, and i've really been at a loss recently. i'm going to try your pheonix advice kcdc, see if that works for me. i've just never really considered it since it seems like marines would just eat up the ~4 pheonix you'll have if you put a stargate down after you scout the double starport. i've been trying pure stalker/sentry, but that just really dies so fast. if I mix in Zeals though, the hellions simply roast them.. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On October 03 2010 15:42 SaintsTheMetal wrote: good replay, but while that may be iEchoic, that's not the super popular iEchoic build everyone's been doing. this (imho much tougher) push comes a full 3 minutes earlier (i've seen it as early as 10:30ish), with twice as many marines (25 or so), hellions, ~5-6 banshees, a Raven instead of ghost, and the original medivac for for the hellion drop. i think this is the hardest push of any to hold, and i've really been at a loss recently. i'm going to try your pheonix advice kcdc, see if that works for me. i've just never really considered it since it seems like marines would just eat up the ~4 pheonix you'll have if you put a stargate down after you scout the double starport. i've been trying pure stalker/sentry, but that just really dies so fast. if I mix in Zeals though, the hellions simply roast them.. So you think the person who made the build in the first place isn't doing it right?  Phoenix tear the 1/1/1 build apart, I wouldn't ever not go phoenix vs terran 1/1/1. | ||
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SaintsTheMetal
United States45 Posts
On October 03 2010 16:01 Minigun wrote: So you think the person who made the build in the first place isn't doing it right? Phoenix tear the 1/1/1 build apart, I wouldn't ever not go phoenix vs terran 1/1/1. nono.. i simply meant that he was using a different build of his, but it wasn't the one that seems to have become super popular recently. you definitely showed off the adaptivity of the 1 gate FE. but the build i'm referring to is the one in this thread when it is executed strictly as written (raven, no ghosts, constant marine pumping, hellions also in push): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146518 i haven't had the chance to test the stargate yet, but as soon as I run into the 1/1/2 or 3/1/2 again on the ladder I'll give it it a shot.. thanks for the tip on a side note: great defense of the hellion harass; think he only got 2 probes all game with it, wish i could hold it to that >.< | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
1. What do you do against a marine+scv push (either very early or about 8 minutes) on short map positions? Do you just abandon the expo? The way I've dealt with these pushes is to FF the ramp and split a couple marines from the group, but this obviously would require that I let the expo die. 2. Transitioning into late game against MMM, what should be my mindset? I know this is a pretty open-ended question, but medivacs gives me fits. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On October 03 2010 16:46 whoopadeedoo wrote: Two questions with this build 1. What do you do against a marine+scv push (either very early or about 8 minutes) on short map positions? Do you just abandon the expo? The way I've dealt with these pushes is to FF the ramp and split a couple marines from the group, but this obviously would require that I let the expo die. 2. Transitioning into late game against MMM, what should be my mindset? I know this is a pretty open-ended question, but medivacs gives me fits. 1. This is a situation where Agh's double gas FE build is superior. Just abandon the expo and turtle your ramp with forcefields while waiting for your colossus. A terran who went all in with marines and scvs has absolutely no way to beat the colossus counter push that follows. 2. The prevalent PvT mid-late game styles are colossus/phoenix/blink and chargelot/HT. Both can defend against drop harass easily if you build enough scouting pylons to see medivacs coming. The former has become popular in Korea since it solves the viking weakness of colossi, while the latter is used mostly by NA/EU players due to the incredible efficiency of Khaydarin amulet templars. The colossus route is safer, but zealot/HT has amazing synergy with carriers if you want to switch to that. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 03 2010 16:01 Minigun wrote: So you think the person who made the build in the first place isn't doing it right? Phoenix tear the 1/1/1 build apart, I wouldn't ever not go phoenix vs terran 1/1/1. I did do a lot of things wrong, just because I made the build doesn't mean it's an auto-win or I play perfect every time :p The hellion drop was botched, I should have dropped back at base for a timing push, ghost timing was off, etc. Pheonix openings don't tear up port builds if you do vikings, I just played badly. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On October 03 2010 17:30 iEchoic wrote: I did do a lot of things wrong, just because I made the build doesn't mean it's an auto-win or I play perfect every time :p The hellion drop was botched, I should have dropped back at base for a timing push, ghost timing was off, etc. Pheonix openings don't tear up port builds if you do vikings, I just played badly. Phoenix openers tear 1-1-1 a new one since with Chronoboost, Phoenixes are always in greater numbers than Vikings and you cannot do ANYTHING with your vikings since if you move out with them, the Protoss just flies in, snipes a viking or at least does damage, takes shield damage and flies out. If he wants he can fly around you and go lift some SCVs etc. Phoenixes give map control and are a great unit since they so efficiently deny scouting SCVs and marines, while enabling the P to get perfect scouting information. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On October 03 2010 17:30 iEchoic wrote: I did do a lot of things wrong, just because I made the build doesn't mean it's an auto-win or I play perfect every time :p The hellion drop was botched, I should have dropped back at base for a timing push, ghost timing was off, etc. Pheonix openings don't tear up port builds if you do vikings, I just played badly. Well a full 2-3 minutes behind sounds like a lot :o . But what chicken lips said below basically, you can constantly shoot back and forth abusing the shields of the phoenix to dwindle down the numbers of the vikings/banshee. Don't phoenix win 1v1 vs a viking as well? (not sure on this, but believe so) . You don't mind me posting the replay here do you? Some people were asking for a 1/1/1 build and finally vs'd someone good who did it, and I thought it showed a how to fight off a hellion drop (especially when you know its coming hehe) . If you mind I'll gladly take it down. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Vikings beat phoenixes, but vikings mean less banshees. The phoenixes can pretty easily pick off a couple banshees before they die even with a good viking count. As a Protoss player, forcing vikings is a trade I'll make any day. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 04 2010 00:19 Minigun wrote: Well a full 2-3 minutes behind sounds like a lot :o . But what chicken lips said below basically, you can constantly shoot back and forth abusing the shields of the phoenix to dwindle down the numbers of the vikings/banshee. Don't phoenix win 1v1 vs a viking as well? (not sure on this, but believe so) . You don't mind me posting the replay here do you? Some people were asking for a 1/1/1 build and finally vs'd someone good who did it, and I thought it showed a how to fight off a hellion drop (especially when you know its coming hehe) . If you mind I'll gladly take it down. I believe phoenixes win if both stand and shoot, but in a real engagement with ground support, the viking's range trumps the phoenix's speed. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On October 04 2010 00:26 kcdc wrote: Re: viking vs phoenix Vikings beat phoenixes, but vikings mean less banshees. The phoenixes can pretty easily pick off a couple banshees before they die even with a good viking count. As a Protoss player, forcing vikings is a trade I'll make any day. On the other hand, vikings can be used to snipe out observers with scan and then it doesn't matter how many phoenix you have. I actually want to test something at some point - how does m&m + ground mode vikings fare vs phoenix/gateway. I don't know if landing the vikings is the best idea, but I feel like it'd be better than shooting phoenix. Lastly, phoenix are buggy so I really don't like using them for harass, but hopefully that'll be patched. | ||
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BrotherBax
United Kingdom89 Posts
On October 04 2010 00:26 kcdc wrote: Re: viking vs phoenix Vikings beat phoenixes, but vikings mean less banshees. The phoenixes can pretty easily pick off a couple banshees before they die even with a good viking count. As a Protoss player, forcing vikings is a trade I'll make any day. Yeah I've noticed that if I squeeze out a few phoenix when I spot a 1/1/1 I can not only snipe most if not all of the banshees at the start of the fight, but any vikings made are even less banshees on the the field. That means the push is weaker or the push is later both of which work for me. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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