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On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler  .
It might be one of those cases where you're just not supposed to be able to hold but that's fine, just like 1 gate FE cannot hold vs a 2 fact so you HAVE to cancel and go reaver or something along those lines.
On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point.
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On October 05 2010 19:48 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler . It might be one of those cases where you're just not supposed to be able to hold but that's fine, just like 1 gate FE cannot hold vs a 2 fact so you HAVE to cancel and go reaver or something along those lines. On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point.
Colossi seem to be a better early transition then templar in the 2 base vs 2 base game. The tech is so much faster that you can either pressure T alot faster or get your 3rd up alot faster. Forcing the T into vikings also delays their ghosts usually which are terribly annoying if you go with zealot/templar.
I'm just having more succes using the colossi/phoenix builds then zealot/templar lately simply because it's a much easier transition. Templar/charge builds are just very weak up to the moment where storm finishes whereas colossi builds are crazy strong for getting a 3rd (and you can always switch to templar later).
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On October 05 2010 19:48 Floophead_III wrote:
On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point.
look for one of the latest games of socke vs morrow on metalopolis
socke plays FE and goes for a really fast colossus-tech after the 2 additional gates; he adds the robo bay "blindly" without observer coverage, which is imo extremely important to get the first colossus out at ~ 9:30
the push you are describing is killing me too steadily if I don't have colossi ready; when they don't expo but just mass up for a push it's even harder to hold because the push comes faster; once marines have reached a critical mass there's nothing that will stop that if you don't have area of effect damage; even if you place perfect force fields, they just don't need to kite anymore; when 25-30 marines are shooting while stimmed it's pure havoc
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I've been playing around with a variation (or an option depending on what you scout) of this build that outright beats the 3 hellion drop into mass marine/banshee/raven (or just mass marine/banshee/raven). The key is 2 critical scout timings that will let you know whether to play "standard" 1-gate FE or not. Initial tests are very positive but I will need to do some more work to see if it's truly viable.
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On October 05 2010 20:53 CookieFactory wrote:
I've been playing around with a variation (or an option depending on what you scout) of this build that outright beats the 3 hellion drop into mass marine/banshee/raven.
Don't lose all your frickin' probes into phoenix?
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What is the proper response for banshee heavy 1 base play with this build? I can fend off 3 rax pushes pretty well but it seems like there's this huge window where I don't have blink stalkers or phoenixes and the T can just go from my nat to my main and kill probes while my stalkers waltz back and forth and can't keep up. I'm starting to think that if I suspect banshees I should just completely delay my robo/4th gate to get up 2 stargates and rely on cannons for detection or something kooky like that.
Sorry I don't have a replay. ~800 diamond.
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On October 06 2010 04:08 Kikuichimonji wrote:
What is the proper response for banshee heavy 1 base play with this build? I can fend off 3 rax pushes pretty well but it seems like there's this huge window where I don't have blink stalkers or phoenixes and the T can just go from my nat to my main and kill probes while my stalkers waltz back and forth and can't keep up. I'm starting to think that if I suspect banshees I should just completely delay my robo/4th gate to get up 2 stargates and rely on cannons for detection or something kooky like that.
Sorry I don't have a replay. ~800 diamond.
put ~4 stalkers at each base, and put up a stargate as soon as your observer sees more than one tech lab, or more than 4 banshees.
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On October 06 2010 04:09 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 04:08 Kikuichimonji wrote:
What is the proper response for banshee heavy 1 base play with this build? I can fend off 3 rax pushes pretty well but it seems like there's this huge window where I don't have blink stalkers or phoenixes and the T can just go from my nat to my main and kill probes while my stalkers waltz back and forth and can't keep up. I'm starting to think that if I suspect banshees I should just completely delay my robo/4th gate to get up 2 stargates and rely on cannons for detection or something kooky like that.
Sorry I don't have a replay. ~800 diamond. put ~4 stalkers at each base, and put up a stargate as soon as your observer sees more than one tech lab, or more than 4 banshees.
Do you mean more than one tech lab on stargates or more than one period?
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On October 06 2010 06:20 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 04:09 Minigun wrote:On October 06 2010 04:08 Kikuichimonji wrote:
What is the proper response for banshee heavy 1 base play with this build? I can fend off 3 rax pushes pretty well but it seems like there's this huge window where I don't have blink stalkers or phoenixes and the T can just go from my nat to my main and kill probes while my stalkers waltz back and forth and can't keep up. I'm starting to think that if I suspect banshees I should just completely delay my robo/4th gate to get up 2 stargates and rely on cannons for detection or something kooky like that.
Sorry I don't have a replay. ~800 diamond. put ~4 stalkers at each base, and put up a stargate as soon as your observer sees more than one tech lab, or more than 4 banshees. Do you mean more than one tech lab on stargates or more than one period?
more than one
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On October 05 2010 19:48 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler . It might be one of those cases where you're just not supposed to be able to hold but that's fine, just like 1 gate FE cannot hold vs a 2 fact so you HAVE to cancel and go reaver or something along those lines. On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point.
If you mean....
Literally 50 marauders: 10 Immortals 10 stalkers 15 zealots
Figuratively 50 marauders: Sentry/Stalker/Zealot. They cant kite or they'll take too much damage from the stalkers and lose efficiency. And if they let you get too close you can FF them in.
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I'm currently at 1400 diamond and have been playing this build a lot...
My biggest problem is an early MM + stim timing push from terran. If he really commits to this, i think its nearly impossible to hold. If i know hes going something 3rax i put down 2 more gates after FE, sometimes 3. But sometimes he just comes before the 4. gate could kick in. So how do u hold an early MM + stim push? What is your army composition, how may zealots, how many stalker, how many sentries?
Next problem: if i put down a 4. gate and say i hold the mm + stim push and then i macro up. i feel like i delayed my templer or colossi tech so much that i am vulnerable, to a bigger mm(m) push...
If anyone has newer replays, where they hold a early timed mm + stim push, i would be very glad :D
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This build is going into the non-viable category for me. You can't beat Maurader/Medivac drops with such an early expansion. Back to 1 basing it is. Not to mention Proxy Maurader cheeses beats 14 gate openings too.
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
TBH, I don't even know how P is suppose to hold against Medivac drops.
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On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler .
Ive been losing my expo quite a bit as of late, im almost considering waiting till the push is over (if i scout a push at all) to expand... but some times even if i lose my nexus i can still keep up the fight because the T has invested so much into that push that when it fails some times they are at a loss.
This one i lost the nexus 
This one I did not
i had another where i lost the nexus... trying to find it.
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I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression.
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On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad.
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On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad.
This, I've learned to build my extra pylons all around the edges of my bases, and if I have an observer on their army, and you see 1/2 their army disappear, well it's probably headed towards your base.
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On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression.
Not a bad write-up. I'd strongly recommend going zealot-stalker-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry and getting 3 gates before robo. Doing so will allow you to hold standard 3-rax pushes without pulling probes. Probes may still be necessary against more aggressive builds (cuttings scvs for earlier barracks, bringing scvs for attack).
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To be honest with you kcdc, I haven't played for a while and was basing the build off of what Markwerf and Knickknack had come up with.
As for the Gate, Robo, Gate - it just seemed to suffer less to ultra fast cloaked Banshees. Or are they no longer popular? If so I'll switch up the build order and just leave the mention of the earlier Robo in the 'vs Banshees with Cloak'.
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On October 07 2010 06:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression. Not a bad write-up. I'd strongly recommend going zealot-stalker-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry and getting 3 gates before robo. Doing so will allow you to hold standard 3-rax pushes without pulling probes. Probes may still be necessary against more aggressive builds (cuttings scvs for earlier barracks, bringing scvs for attack).
I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression.
One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's.
If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though.
Lmk.
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On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 06:13 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression. Not a bad write-up. I'd strongly recommend going zealot-stalker-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry and getting 3 gates before robo. Doing so will allow you to hold standard 3-rax pushes without pulling probes. Probes may still be necessary against more aggressive builds (cuttings scvs for earlier barracks, bringing scvs for attack). I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression. One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's. If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though. Lmk.
I get to 3 gates then robo and seem to get my observer out just as the banshee cloaks. I might lose some probes, but it's not a big deal since cloak is so expensive. To get cloak fast enough to do serious damage, they have to leave themselves essentially undefended. It's a bad build even if they kill 10 probes.
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