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On October 07 2010 09:01 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:On October 07 2010 06:13 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression. Not a bad write-up. I'd strongly recommend going zealot-stalker-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry and getting 3 gates before robo. Doing so will allow you to hold standard 3-rax pushes without pulling probes. Probes may still be necessary against more aggressive builds (cuttings scvs for earlier barracks, bringing scvs for attack). I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression. One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's. If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though. Lmk. I get to 3 gates then robo and seem to get my observer out just as the banshee cloaks. I might lose some probes, but it's not a big deal since cloak is so expensive. To get cloak fast enough to do serious damage, they have to leave themselves essentially undefended. It's a bad build even if they kill 10 probes.
Also, when I'm playing, I notice I never use my chronoboosts, I seem to save them for a rush incase I see it's coming, perhaps it would be better to use them on nexus's.
What do you do with them?
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On October 06 2010 18:08 Entr0py wrote:
I'm currently at 1400 diamond and have been playing this build a lot...
My biggest problem is an early MM + stim timing push from terran. If he really commits to this, i think its nearly impossible to hold. If i know hes going something 3rax i put down 2 more gates after FE, sometimes 3. But sometimes he just comes before the 4. gate could kick in. So how do u hold an early MM + stim push? What is your army composition, how may zealots, how many stalker, how many sentries?
Next problem: if i put down a 4. gate and say i hold the mm + stim push and then i macro up. i feel like i delayed my templer or colossi tech so much that i am vulnerable, to a bigger mm(m) push...
If anyone has newer replays, where they hold a early timed mm + stim push, i would be very glad :D
A handful of sentries (you don't need as many if they've been charging longer), a lot of zealots, and some stalkers. I think I start out with 3 stalkers and 1 zealot, then ~6 stalkers and ~4 zealots, then ~8 stalkers and ~8 zealots, and then I start making more zealots and sentries. Zealots are stronger, but stalkers are more versatile. In small fights, stalkers are more useful. In big fights, you need lots of zealots.
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On October 07 2010 09:04 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 09:01 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:On October 07 2010 06:13 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression. Not a bad write-up. I'd strongly recommend going zealot-stalker-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry and getting 3 gates before robo. Doing so will allow you to hold standard 3-rax pushes without pulling probes. Probes may still be necessary against more aggressive builds (cuttings scvs for earlier barracks, bringing scvs for attack). I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression. One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's. If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though. Lmk. I get to 3 gates then robo and seem to get my observer out just as the banshee cloaks. I might lose some probes, but it's not a big deal since cloak is so expensive. To get cloak fast enough to do serious damage, they have to leave themselves essentially undefended. It's a bad build even if they kill 10 probes. Also, when I'm playing, I notice I never use my chronoboosts, I seem to save them for a rush incase I see it's coming, perhaps it would be better to use them on nexus's. What do you do with them?
I pretty consistently use all of my chronoboost until late game when I can't keep up with everything I want to do anymore. What I use it on depends on what I'm trying to do. I always attack with my first zealot and stalker (and reinforce with my second stalker if the attack is going well) so I typically have a good sense of whether I need to chrono gates for extra units or whether I can use it on training probes. I don't typically get 4 gates anymore. Instead, my response when expecting heavy pressure is to spend all chrono on gates.
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On October 06 2010 06:38 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:48 Floophead_III wrote:On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler  . It might be one of those cases where you're just not supposed to be able to hold but that's fine, just like 1 gate FE cannot hold vs a 2 fact so you HAVE to cancel and go reaver or something along those lines. On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point. If you mean.... Literally 50 marauders: 10 Immortals 10 stalkers 15 zealots Figuratively 50 marauders: Sentry/Stalker/Zealot. They cant kite or they'll take too much damage from the stalkers and lose efficiency. And if they let you get too close you can FF them in.
Oh I mean literally, with marines in there too. 100 food of MMM or so. None of these 1 base timing pushes. I'm talking just macro midgame giant MMM balls. The fact is, if T FEs you're not going to have more stuff and then you run into the efficiency problem again. Immortals are great in smaller fights cause you can focus out the marauders. Immortals in large fights vs mixed armies are really hard to control and usually end up hitting the marines (which have smaller range and are up front). Colossi would be great, if they didn't die instantly. A colossus has 350 hp and a zealot has 150. They die almost exactly the same to marauders. =[
It wouldn't be an issue if you could fight in chokes where colossi and FF are more effective. However, if you ever want to attack or take a 3rd you're going to have to move into the open where you can't protect your colossi easily. Not to mention, good viking control is pretty strong too, but you don't even really need vikings.
Zealots do nothing to an army of that magnitude since medivacs heal the whole perimeter and you can't even get half your zealots hitting things.
I guess what I'm really looking for is a timing window where I can:
a) safely tech to storm or carriers, whichever I feel is better
b) safely take a 3rd early on
That being said, it's the lesser of my concerns with PvT right now. The matchup has some issues I'm discovering.
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On October 07 2010 11:48 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 06:38 bobcat wrote:On October 05 2010 19:48 Floophead_III wrote:On October 05 2010 07:46 Minigun wrote:On October 05 2010 07:36 whoopadeedoo wrote:
As I think was suggested, what if you just let your expo fall, move back up the ramp, and FF the ramp (preferably cutting off a few units from the pack with each FF), and warp-in sentries as needed. You'll eventually gain a massive econ/unit advantage. Yeah It's what I've been doing, with good success, but if you could defend at your expo, that would be even cooler . It might be one of those cases where you're just not supposed to be able to hold but that's fine, just like 1 gate FE cannot hold vs a 2 fact so you HAVE to cancel and go reaver or something along those lines. On another note, I'm noticing I win almost every time T attempts some sort of early push, but T who fast expands and just has a ridiculous amount of stuff in midgame seems to be a lot more problematic. I need either a good window to take a 3rd or a good way to get storm out with a reasonable number of templar. I just don't know how you fight a bioball with 50 marauders in it. Zealots just do nothing at that point. If you mean.... Literally 50 marauders: 10 Immortals 10 stalkers 15 zealots Figuratively 50 marauders: Sentry/Stalker/Zealot. They cant kite or they'll take too much damage from the stalkers and lose efficiency. And if they let you get too close you can FF them in. Oh I mean literally, with marines in there too. 100 food of MMM or so. None of these 1 base timing pushes. I'm talking just macro midgame giant MMM balls. The fact is, if T FEs you're not going to have more stuff and then you run into the efficiency problem again. Immortals are great in smaller fights cause you can focus out the marauders. Immortals in large fights vs mixed armies are really hard to control and usually end up hitting the marines (which have smaller range and are up front). Colossi would be great, if they didn't die instantly. A colossus has 350 hp and a zealot has 150. They die almost exactly the same to marauders. =[ It wouldn't be an issue if you could fight in chokes where colossi and FF are more effective. However, if you ever want to attack or take a 3rd you're going to have to move into the open where you can't protect your colossi easily. Not to mention, good viking control is pretty strong too, but you don't even really need vikings. Zealots do nothing to an army of that magnitude since medivacs heal the whole perimeter and you can't even get half your zealots hitting things. I guess what I'm really looking for is a timing window where I can: a) safely tech to storm or carriers, whichever I feel is better b) safely take a 3rd early on That being said, it's the lesser of my concerns with PvT right now. The matchup has some issues I'm discovering.
Ignoring the weakness of terran fast expo vs 3 gate stargate, the build is generally too tier 1 heavy to give them map control against a fast colossus rush. They usually go 1 rax -> command center -> 3 more rax -> 2-3 bunkers, meaning that the starport is incredibly late. After you build your nexus, get a robo followed by 2 gates asap and make a robotics bay as soon as possible. Then constantly chrono boost out colossi and extended thermal lances while getting a good amount of stalker/sentry to forcefield liberally. When terran delays their tech by that much, going for a colossus push really taxes their starport build time so that they will have to choose between vikings and medivacs. If you are ahead due to stopping an earlier push, the timing push before they get both vikings and medivacs can often win the game. If you have not gained an advantage, or if you are not confident pushing into their natural expo for some reason, you can still use that timing window to secure a 3rd base and tech to templars while the terran is waiting for his starport to produce enough units to move out. It is also possible to forgo templars entirely and just make phoenixes to combat the growing viking count, further straining the production capability of a single reactor starport. I think this is what the Koreans are doing, 1 stargate per reactor port or 1 stargate per 2 tech lab ports.
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On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:
I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression.
One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's.
If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though.
Lmk.
Thanks for the input on the Stalker over Sentry, will change the build order.
I think there is some confusion on the amount of Gates, as I believe kcdc meant he went 3 in total and then got a Robo. Not that he went Gate, Gate, Gate, Robo after the Nexus.
Still, maybe it would be worth the build order stopping at the Nexus, and then having the follow up buildings placed in the section for each Adaptation depending what the Terran is doing?
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On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:
I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression.
this I don't really understand, tbh - you are a way better player than I am, but getting a sentry as third unit (and another stalker as fourth) enables me to kill all (!) units when my opponent attacks with 1 marine, 2 concussive-marauders and 1 scv; I normally pull 2 probes and normally lose only 1 probe and the zealot while killing him;
when I go zealot/stalker/stalker the T can just run up the ramp, kite-kill my zealot and retreat with just losing the marine or even without any losses, when he pulls the marine back after the first shots immediately (you can't chase or your stalkers are toast); then come back and repeat if I don't build a sentry NOW
then again, this isn't really a FE-issue, admittedly
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On October 07 2010 15:55 Zazaodh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:
I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression.
One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's.
If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though.
Lmk. Thanks for the input on the Stalker over Sentry, will change the build order. I think there is some confusion on the amount of Gates, as I believe kcdc meant he went 3 in total and then got a Robo. Not that he went Gate, Gate, Gate, Robo after the Nexus. Still, maybe it would be worth the build order stopping at the Nexus, and then having the follow up buildings placed in the section for each Adaptation depending what the Terran is doing?
Yes, I have 3 total gates when I build robo. 2 makes you more vulnerable to MM pushes while 4 makes you vulnerable to cloaked banshees.
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On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad.
It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play.
Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits.
It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings.
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@superstartran:
hmmm, replays or the sources would be nice.
also... i´ve been following this thread since the beginning. because i have a pretty solid pvt build that wins me almost every game, i didnt bother to try to master this build. anyway, the thing that confuses me most, is that i´ve never ever seen, any progamer using this build.
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Thanks for keeping up with this! I've had issues with mm timing pushes and after reading your update posts I think I was doing it wrong. I went sentry heavy at the start but I'll focus on stalker zealot and see what happens.
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On October 08 2010 00:16 ensis wrote:
@superstartran:
hmmm, replays or the sources would be nice.
Watch what happens to JingManChul and the guy who played Iron at GSL; also Tester did not expand against ITR for a reason, and that's because ITR loves to Medivac drop.
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On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings.
Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer.
If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game.
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hmmm, and this is what is disturbing me a bit.
if you can defend vs. fucking anything and be always ahead in eco.
why havent i seen any pro successfully playing this strategy? i mean.... there has to be some downside, hasnt it? it´s like terran pros do not use marine or marauders because they just dont want to although they know that it would benefit them.
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If you watch the reply i posted it shows how you can watch your opponent with your obs to prepare for a drop. In the game i saw him load up a few units and i immediately had 3 stalkers warped into the fog of metropolis because that is the most common spot for drops and i saw the medivac running toward it.
As for Chrono, i always use it on my gates until warpgate finishes. I also use one on my nexus's as my 9pylon is finishing. But I usually do a Gate - Robo - Gate play, not sure about the delayed Robo people are talking about above. I like to get that ob out to see how fast the push is coming and to be able to get the immortal out fast if its marauder heavy.
Also I do like the zlots - stalker - sentry opening, but i will give the stalker stalker play a try for sure.
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On October 07 2010 22:18 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:55 Zazaodh wrote:On October 07 2010 08:33 Minigun wrote:
I agree with the sentry part. I don't normally get a sentry until I have ~3-4 stalkers + 2-3 zealots. Getting a sentry that early is pointless and will only make you lose more games to early aggression.
One question, about the gateway part though. My standard is just to throw down 2 gates + 1 robo, so I can see what they are doing asap, and I can barely constantly produce units + probes just out of 3 gateways + my nexus's.
If against a fast banashee, the observer comes out, just in time, if you throw it down right away, but I don't see how yours will be out in time, I could be wrong though.
Lmk. Thanks for the input on the Stalker over Sentry, will change the build order. I think there is some confusion on the amount of Gates, as I believe kcdc meant he went 3 in total and then got a Robo. Not that he went Gate, Gate, Gate, Robo after the Nexus. Still, maybe it would be worth the build order stopping at the Nexus, and then having the follow up buildings placed in the section for each Adaptation depending what the Terran is doing? Yes, I have 3 total gates when I build robo. 2 makes you more vulnerable to MM pushes while 4 makes you vulnerable to cloaked banshees.
Ohh okay that makes more sense. I thought we were talking about 4 gates total.
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This might be a basic question but...
so you guys like to use your chrono on your gates rather than on the warpgate tech? Don't you have enough units to fend off the early push without chronoing the gates and it would be better off to spend chrono on warpgate tech so that you can get the reinforcements in faster during that second push?
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On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression.
Can just put 19zealot, don't need to mention probe. 22-23pylon is fine. Due to zealot build increase I would recommend 23wg then stalker. 32psi is where the variations start with that bo. You could cut probes there and lay down 2gates for the most units fastest. You could put down a robo asap for fast ob. There are tons of combinations, this sort of stuff can be put in notes or a build variations section.
As you see from the followup posts there is disagreement about what to do with gates/robo. how many sentries or when to get them (that bo uses z-stalker-stalker-sentry for constant unit production due to how gas works out). These are valid, but rather in depth concerns. And likely these choices are just about trade offs, sometimes better or worse depending on what your opponent happens to do. Again the thing to do here is note the variations. The fact is the BO you put up is the best presented in this thread. If someone clearly details another BO and explains the timings, and it seems better, then sure put that one up. The above comments seemed necessary to put some perspective on clear thinking.
Some other things in the guide could use work, for example "You get a Stalker out fast enough to deal with the first Reaper". Fact is depending on proxy reaper timing its possible for them to attack you before you even have a zealot out. The useful info to add here is that if you don't have enough units to defend chase reaper with some probes. edit-though it seems they are requiring depot for rax which changes this.
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On October 08 2010 01:46 Knickknack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 03:14 Zazaodh wrote:I have made a page on the Liquipedia at 1 Gate FE (vs Terran) for this build, and would greatly appreciate any input and additions - especially regarding this build against 2 Rax aggression. Can just put 19zealot, don't need to mention probe. 22-23pylon is fine. Due to zealot build increase I would recommend 23wg then stalker. 32psi is where the variations start with that bo. You could cut probes there and lay down 2gates for the most units fastest. You could put down a robo asap for fast ob. There are tons of combinations, this sort of stuff can be put in notes or a build variations section. As you see from the followup posts there is disagreement about what to do with gates/robo. how many sentries or when to get them (that bo uses z-stalker-stalker-sentry for constant unit production due to how gas works out). These are valid, but rather in depth concerns. And likely these choices are just about trade offs, sometimes better or worse depending on what your opponent happens to do. Again the thing to do here is note the variations. The fact is the BO you put up is the best presented in this thread. If someone clearly details another BO and explains the timings, and it seems better, then sure put that one up. The above comments seemed necessary to put some perspective on clear thinking. Some other things in the guide could use work, for example "You get a Stalker out fast enough to deal with the first Reaper". Fact is depending on proxy reaper timing its possible for them to attack you before you even have a zealot out. The useful info to add here is that if you don't have enough units to defend chase reaper with some probes.
Agreed about some variation after nexus at 30. I'd say the basic build is 13 gate, 15 gas, then core, then zealot, warpgate tech and chronoed stalker immediately at completion of core, another chronoed stalker, nexus at 30 (or 29 if you lost your scouting probe). Send your first zealot and stalker to attack (particularly on small maps as standard openings won't yet have concussive, so you can always retreat if the attack doesn't look favorable). They should hit your opponent's base seconds after your nexus is started. From this poke, you should be able to gauge whether you need to cute probes and rush for gates to defend a push or take it easy and keep constant probe production. On long rush distances, you can keep constant probe production and go gate -> robo -> gate to get the observer a little quicker. You still need constant production out of 3 gates to be safe even with long rush distances, but you can afford to speed up the observer a tick.
Also, on shorter rush distances, if you suspect an early push, you will want to build only zealots and stalkers. A single sentry is useless for early defense. If you don't think an early push is coming, you can build a sentry following your first two stalkers. This will free up some extra minerals for the pylon and gateways you need (you're nearly supply blocked at this point) and will allow you to start saving up energy early. Banked energy is incredibly helpful against MMM pushes.
From here, you start really branching out. I think your discussion of transitions is good. Charge, blink, storm, warp prisms, collosi, phoenixes, carriers and motherships can all be worth getting depending what T does. If your chosen tech path is charge into storm, (and most of the time, it will be) I would emphasize being conservative and taking it slow in teching to storm. Getting charge and 2 storms costs 1000 gas, and it takes an eternity to get there even if you rush it as quickly as possible. Since the tech is so gas-expensive, rushing it will keep your sentry count too low to deal with MMM timing attacks. Make gradual transitions (unless you're behind and you need to take a risk to get back in the game) so that you're safe at all times.
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EPT
