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Pretty fun match i just played on the new ladder map. FE and Some DT and Warp Prism Play :D
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155618.jpg)
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On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game.
Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases.
There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it.
Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural.
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On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural.
I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time.
I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible.
As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans....
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On October 07 2010 09:04 Minigun wrote:
Also, when I'm playing, I notice I never use my chronoboosts, I seem to save them for a rush incase I see it's coming, perhaps it would be better to use them on nexus's.
What do you do with them?
I like to chrono out stalkers after the first zealot, it helps against marine rushes quite a bit if you are aggressive with them and pick off marines before they hit a critical mass.
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On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans....
Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play.
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Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
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As a 1700 P this build has worked for me VERY well, against agressive AND turling Terrans. For those of you saying medivac hellion play is a trouble for you, try building a fewmore stalkers instead of zelots they can kill the dropship as well as chase of hellions. Also, for the stimmed bio pushed if u tech quickly enough(even with getting robo) just skip charge and you should have 1 or 2 templars out with storm which is sufficient if you have the micro. I'll see if i can get some replays of me defending the drops.
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On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots.
On October 08 2010 09:20 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans.... Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play.
I've used this build vs good terrans, such as hashe, qxe, drewbie, trump and it holds. This is my standard build at the 2100 pt level.
You can defend drops, and defend long enough to tech to colos safely.
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How do you deal with any sort of Medivac+stim push? These pushes happens before I can get my colossus finished
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Fenix vs tank play is very strong indeed. I think it really throws the terran off also because they want tend to focus the fenix and then your gateway units will tear apart the mm's while they are trying to take out the air.
Good idea mini gun.
When i see tanks, I tend to go for voids. especially if i have a 3rd base up. throwing up 2 stargates instead of a few more gates can really help diversify your army composition and some times really throw off your opponent who has just seen gateways or robo units thus far. I posted a replay a few pages back of this kinda thing.
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On October 08 2010 11:09 Minigun wrote:
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots.
On October 08 2010 12:24 AlexXx wrote:
Fenix vs tank play is very strong indeed. I think it really throws the terran off also because they want tend to focus the fenix and then your gateway units will tear apart the mm's while they are trying to take out the air.
Good idea mini gun.
When i see tanks, I tend to go for voids. especially if i have a 3rd base up. throwing up 2 stargates instead of a few more gates can really help diversify your army composition and some times really throw off your opponent who has just seen gateways or robo units thus far. I posted a replay a few pages back of this kinda thing.
Use Phoenix mainly for the lifting up, tanking away fire from ground troops, attack through lifting too? I know its good for recon and worker harass... I watched some players they like to lift the marauders and use stalkers on marines, zeals on tanks.
The problem is I wouldn't know he has techlab + tanks. Fast expand is done by 630 minutes. The next 2 minutes I get 2 more gates, robo, gas. Pumping troops nonstop in case its a mm hard push. When I send out the observer at 7:30, he's positioning his first wave at 8:00 mark. Unless I do a blind fenix opening..
You guys have a replay or 2 for these fights?
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On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
key to beat early tank-pushes are immortals - they REALLY go to town on tanks; it seems like you delayed your robo too much? remember, once you got your nexus down cut probes to get 2 warpgates and robo (and 2nd gas of course)
once my robo stands I use chrono-boost almost exclusively on robo-units to get the observer out instantly and the aforementioned immortal; also it seems like you could've gotten another round of units before the push
mostly the terran will feel compelled to shoot at the immortal: good! especially together with guardian shield the immortal will soak up A LOT of marine-shots, which should enable you to clean up; if you start producing a 2nd immortal in the process, this together with constant warp-in should deal with this push pretty easily; I've never lost to initial tank-agression, don't think it can break a FE
other pushes like marine/banshee/raven are much harder to deal with imo;
@minigun: I'd really, "really!" appreciate it, if you could post a rep of you beating marine/banshee/raven, once you stumble upon this
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Question:
Say u go 1 gate FE into 2 more gates and u hold the mm attack. Now u have a some kind gateway force and decide to go for templer tech. After your twilight counsle, do u reaserch charge or do u use your 200 gas to tech straight to templer archive? So my question would be if u dont have enough gas for both would u prefer charge or storm first?
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On October 08 2010 18:49 Entr0py wrote:
Question:
Say u go 1 gate FE into 2 more gates and u hold the mm attack. Now u have a some kind gateway force and decide to go for templer tech. After your twilight counsle, do u reaserch charge or do u use your 200 gas to tech straight to templer archive? So my question would be if u dont have enough gas for both would u prefer charge or storm first?
depends completely on your position and your scouting information
although I go colossi first and switch later into templar, I'd say get charge when he retreated quickly and you didn't trade much units, because then you will NEED charge or your zealots will just melt before they can do anything; otherwise you are fine with your economical advantage and can invest more in tech
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Id go with charge first, your going have alot more zlots then HT's and youll still need Psy storm and the amulet to really be THAT effective.
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On October 08 2010 11:09 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots. Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 09:20 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans.... Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play. I've used this build vs good terrans, such as hashe, qxe, drewbie, trump and it holds. This is my standard build at the 2100 pt level. You can defend drops, and defend long enough to tech to colos safely.
The drop already successfully did what it was suppose to do. You realize how strong Maurader drops are, as does any P. If your army is down your ramp at at your main, sometimes you can't even react in time to defend against a Medivac drop. I'm not seeing how you're going to hold a split prong attack where the T is just harassing you non-stop, threatening your main and natural at the same time with Mauraders that eat buildings in under 5 seconds with Stim.
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On October 09 2010 01:51 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 11:09 Minigun wrote:On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots. On October 08 2010 09:20 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans.... Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play. I've used this build vs good terrans, such as hashe, qxe, drewbie, trump and it holds. This is my standard build at the 2100 pt level. You can defend drops, and defend long enough to tech to colos safely. The drop already successfully did what it was suppose to do. You realize how strong Maurader drops are, as does any P. If your army is down your ramp at at your main, sometimes you can't even react in time to defend against a Medivac drop. I'm not seeing how you're going to hold a split prong attack where the T is just harassing you non-stop, threatening your main and natural at the same time with Mauraders that eat buildings in under 5 seconds with Stim.
I know how scary they are, but I always have an observer on their army, and a small attack force grouped to a different control group, such as 1 immortal 3 zealots, so if it does come, I can respond pretty quickly. If it's more than one dropship, I can just warp in some more units to go along with them.
But if you are unprepared, yes they are very scary.
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Pylons around your base give you enough advanced warning to see and respond to drops, but you really have to be watching the mini-map the whole time. I usually don't pull my main force back to deal with medivacs, but just warp in new units in my base. By the time terran has medivac harass, you will have 4 warpgates up, if not 6 or 7 (depending on how late these drops come).
It's the late game medivac drops that are extremely annoying to me. It's hard for you to keep tabs on multiple locations, especially when you're managing a 120+ supply army ... at least for me. But this happens whether I FE or not.
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On October 09 2010 01:57 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 01:51 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 11:09 Minigun wrote:On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots. On October 08 2010 09:20 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 01:49 superstartran wrote:
Most T's don't abuse medivacs against FE's in your replays; I've been facing 1400/1500 T's who do OP Maurader doom drops. You can't do jack diddly squat about it either. You can play the perfect game and there's not much you can do.
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans.... Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play. I've used this build vs good terrans, such as hashe, qxe, drewbie, trump and it holds. This is my standard build at the 2100 pt level. You can defend drops, and defend long enough to tech to colos safely. The drop already successfully did what it was suppose to do. You realize how strong Maurader drops are, as does any P. If your army is down your ramp at at your main, sometimes you can't even react in time to defend against a Medivac drop. I'm not seeing how you're going to hold a split prong attack where the T is just harassing you non-stop, threatening your main and natural at the same time with Mauraders that eat buildings in under 5 seconds with Stim. I know how scary they are, but I always have an observer on their army, and a small attack force grouped to a different control group, such as 1 immortal 3 zealots, so if it does come, I can respond pretty quickly. If it's more than one dropship, I can just warp in some more units to go along with them. But if you are unprepared, yes they are very scary.
Even if you are prepared, you can still lose a key building like a Robo, Citadel, Templar archive, or a Nexus if your army isn't in position. Happens to top P players all the time.
Your observer certainly can't be everywhere.
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On October 09 2010 02:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 01:57 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 01:51 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 11:09 Minigun wrote:On October 08 2010 10:56 tragics wrote:
Hi kcdc, minigun
how do you respond to marine/marauder tank push? The tanks really kill my troops pretty fast. How do you handle such a composition? It was 2 tanks, 8 marines 3 maruaders, started pushing at 8:30.
I went quite agressive on probes and only had 3 zeals, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, an observer, an immortal in building progress at point of contact.
I tried to do some priority killings on tanks but stalkers got crushed by marines, marauders.
I only had a few zealots, stalks, 1 immortal, probes to finish off the 1st push. But it went downhill after that. Should I always disengage when I lose my zealots?
Also, what should I go for transition tech path? leg speed h. templar? colossus? Phoenix?
I dislike colossus as it will get killed so fast by tank marauders and high templar is still quite far to get.
I like to get quick phoenix's when I see a tech lab + tanks with chargelots. On October 08 2010 09:20 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 08:46 kcdc wrote:On October 08 2010 07:56 superstartran wrote:On October 08 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 23:49 superstartran wrote:On October 07 2010 06:04 kcdc wrote:
[quote]
The OP and the replays are old. I promise I've played against really good T's who use drops. Keep your observer(s) active, use spotter pylons, make lots of stuff, and multitask well. It's not that bad. It is that bad. Medivac Doom Drops at worse contain you to your base for a very long time, since he doesn't even need a very big force to snipe your Nexus/Probes. It allows him to secure his natural and saturate it, meanwhile you are stuck trying to fend off 2 Medivacs. And the only way to deal with it is with blink or Templars, which you will have neither by the time he arrives. JingManChul and TheWind both tried to run Fast Expands and both were utterly raped up and down by Medivac play. Tester didn't even try to expand vs ITR because he know ITR was a heavy medivac harasser, and he would have had tons of trouble defending against it with no Templars/Blink/Observers. He would have been delayed with his Observers and would not have seen that first Medivac drop coming. In worse case ITR forces him to choose by sniping either his expansion or his main. You can't defend against both since you need a fairly large portion of your force to beat either of the split hits. It's a pretty big issue in that even if you see his Medivacs coming, if your troops aren't moving up back up your ramp and near your Nexus as soon as his Medivacs are there, you are gonna lose that Nexus. But if he also has a few more Mauraders at your natural also, he can snipe Probes/Nexus that way also. It's just stupid that Mauraders do so much damage to buildings. Ok, the idea that T will be heavily dropping before you have observers is ridiculous. If T races for a 3 hellion drop as fast as possible, it barely comes before your observer. If you feel like 2 bases is too much for you to cover against drops, don't expand. But drops can absolutely be stopped with good play. Again, use spotters, split your forces and multitask well. Phoenixes are a good addition in the mid game. Absolutely? Uh, what? Most P players struggle holding a Medivac drop off 1 base let alone trying to defend 2 bases. There is a reason why this strategy is non-existant at extremely high level of play, and that's because 1 Rax FE's and Medivacs stomp all over this, and there is no ability to adapt. You are making it out as though this opening simply cannot be stopped, when I have pointed out two examples of it getting utterly stomped on, and another example of Tester not using the strategy because he knows ITR is a heavy medivac harasser. He barely held off that Medivac harass on Scrap Yard, and that was extremely bad play from the T, and really good play from Tester. Watch what happens to JangMinChul vs Ogs.Top and you'll see why no P FE's at the top level of play. If it was as viable as you say it was, they would all be doing it. Not to mention 1 Rax FE play into mass Bio/Stim stomps all over this anyways. All you have said so far is "play better, you can stop it." There's a reason why hardly any top P expands before Colossai/Obs/Citadel tech. It's because T has too many ways to beat this, and too many ways to expose your lack of mobility. Maurader drops with Medivacs force you to bring your entire army, not just a few units. That opens up your natural for him to also hit, so now your stuck choosing your main or your natural. I don't know, man. I'm at 1500 right now. My high point was 1580, but I went on a losing streak trying some new stuff out (like playing Zerg....) and had to work my way back up. I haven't played many pro Terrans using this build (I lost being over-aggressive against a 2-rax expand from a pro the other day, but I forget who it was. I did beat a good player with ID mTwDIMAGA, but even if it was Dimaga, he was off-racing), so I can't speak to the highest levels of play. Minigun is at 2100 tho, and he's used it as his standard opening against most every T at the top of the US ladder. If it's not working for you, do something else, but I'm not convinced that good drops will beat this opening every time. I'm not saying this opening is unbeatable. 2-rax expand is roughly on even footing with 1-gate expand IMO. The openings are safe against each other, they're on par in economy, and the tech delays are comparable. Against a variety of 1-base timing attacks, you have to play really well to hold, but it's possible. As for why pros don't use the opening more often, I don't know. Robo openings are really strong as well, and allow for more aggression. Also, in the few GSL games I watched, I saw a few pros do some really dumb stuff. Like 5 gates + robo + starport on one base bad.... Do what you like. If you think this opening won't work when you play against ITR, no one is forcing you to use it against 1500 Terrans.... Good drops will threaten you to come back to your main, and open up huge openings for the T to smash your natural. Watch what JangMingChul does, he does exactly the same build. He does everything right, and gets crushed badly by Medivac/Maurader play. I've used this build vs good terrans, such as hashe, qxe, drewbie, trump and it holds. This is my standard build at the 2100 pt level. You can defend drops, and defend long enough to tech to colos safely. The drop already successfully did what it was suppose to do. You realize how strong Maurader drops are, as does any P. If your army is down your ramp at at your main, sometimes you can't even react in time to defend against a Medivac drop. I'm not seeing how you're going to hold a split prong attack where the T is just harassing you non-stop, threatening your main and natural at the same time with Mauraders that eat buildings in under 5 seconds with Stim. I know how scary they are, but I always have an observer on their army, and a small attack force grouped to a different control group, such as 1 immortal 3 zealots, so if it does come, I can respond pretty quickly. If it's more than one dropship, I can just warp in some more units to go along with them. But if you are unprepared, yes they are very scary. Even if you are prepared, you can still lose a key building like a Robo, Citadel, Templar archive, or a Nexus if your army isn't in position. Happens to top P players all the time. Your observer certainly can't be everywhere.
That's why building placement is important. You put your important buildings as close to your nat as possible.
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EPT
