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Dropping is definitely the obvious and clear way to exploit this strategy; however, I think it's a little unfair to use Tester's behavior vs. ITR in the GSL as a reasonable discussion considering he recently said that he executed his build orders poorly and ( in my opinion ) effectively said that ITR simply out-classed him in every way. Mainly, though, this probably isn't a strategy you'd bust out in a tournament if you're questioning whether or not you're the superior player. Again, speculation, but my focus is that Tester isn't a good example because arguments as to why he didn't use the 1 Gate FE are spurious until he comes out and says why he didn't use 1 Gate FE.
However, your point of oGsTop vs. TheWind is completely salient - that's basically a textbook description of what can happen if you don't play perfectly and your opponent does really high level drops. Some of that, though, is things like TheWind sitting on 500+ minerals when the drop came in ( and over 1000 on the other side of it ) and just not being as good a player as oGsTop in that series.
There's no way to play perfectly - you're going to lose a building or two in games - but I think you're looking at a situation where you can definitely play around those types of setbacks.
Not that the 1000 - 1200 range is particularly fantastical, but I've played Ts in that range in customs doing this strategy and was able to defend drops without losing the game. It definitely is something you have to build around, though, putting your robo on the opposite side of your natural on lost temple in close air positions is a fancy way of saying "Please snipe my robo at your next convenience".
Even 2 or 3 Gate Robo has weaknesses that can be exploited - it's more a function of whether those weaknesses can be played around.
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On October 09 2010 04:27 ShadowWolf wrote:
Dropping is definitely the obvious and clear way to exploit this strategy; however, I think it's a little unfair to use Tester's behavior vs. ITR in the GSL as a reasonable discussion considering he recently said that he executed his build orders poorly and ( in my opinion ) effectively said that ITR simply out-classed him in every way. Mainly, though, this probably isn't a strategy you'd bust out in a tournament if you're questioning whether or not you're the superior player. Again, speculation, but my focus is that Tester isn't a good example because arguments as to why he didn't use the 1 Gate FE are spurious until he comes out and says why he didn't use 1 Gate FE.
However, your point of oGsTop vs. TheWind is completely salient - that's basically a textbook description of what can happen if you don't play perfectly and your opponent does really high level drops. Some of that, though, is things like TheWind sitting on 500+ minerals when the drop came in ( and over 1000 on the other side of it ) and just not being as good a player as oGsTop in that series.
There's no way to play perfectly - you're going to lose a building or two in games - but I think you're looking at a situation where you can definitely play around those types of setbacks.
Not that the 1000 - 1200 range is particularly fantastical, but I've played Ts in that range in customs doing this strategy and was able to defend drops without losing the game. It definitely is something you have to build around, though, putting your robo on the opposite side of your natural on lost temple in close air positions is a fancy way of saying "Please snipe my robo at your next convenience".
Even 2 or 3 Gate Robo has weaknesses that can be exploited - it's more a function of whether those weaknesses can be played around.
Tester's behavior was because ITR is a notorious medivac dropper. That is why he played the way he did. He barely held off the 30 drops that took place on Scrap Yard (forgot against who it was) and that T didn't even play that well, and Tester played pretty much perfect to the T that match. Imagine ITR dropping you and you'll get an idea of how hard it would be to hold it off.
Your army could literally sit right next to the ramp and if he drops on your Nexus that thing is dead no matter what you do, before you can even react. That's how stupid Maurader drops are at the moment. Unless your observer follows his Medivacs everywhere (which means you are playing blind to the 2nd portion of his army, who could also snipe your expansion Nexus at any time), you will not be able to react in time. And to be honest, even if he doesn't successfully hurt you, he's still got you contained with the threat of a drop and he'll secure his expansion easy.
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Q: How is one base suppose to react better to these drops? The bottom line is medivacs are hellish against any build - a cheap, fast-moving transport that can heal what it transports.
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On October 09 2010 07:14 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Q: How is one base suppose to react better to these drops? The bottom line is medivacs are hellish against any build - a cheap, fast-moving transport that can heal what it transports.
You have less places to defend, and you need to one base quickly to get to Templars or Blink Stalkers to snipe Medivacs/prevent them from healing. Templars counter Medivacs badly, so once you have them out then you can expand pretty easily.
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With PvT, what I've learned is you can never camp in your base (up-ramp) after about the 7min mark or else you're asking to get held in. It's exceedingly difficult for toss to break out of his own base if Terran is entrenched outside. This is true against MM concaves, bunkers, siege tanks, 1/1/1 with PDD, etc. So your units aren't going to be in your base anyhow for defense ... they'll be much closer to your natural, regardless of whether you're using the natural or not. The "two base" defense really is moot IMO.
I can see how faster tech to Templars could make a difference, but I'm not convinced that the timing window exists for terran to abuse medivacs against 2 base that it couldn't do against 1 base (or the timing window isn't very big and templars can be substituted by a couple stalkers in your main mineral line).
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I just signed up to thank you for posting this. Very good guide for trying to deal with MMM.
I've been using a very similar tactic(s) to deal with early MM timed pushes and it's still a coin toss. Unless the Terran makes mistakes or I'm significantly better, I lose my natural and/or am confined within my base the rest of the match.
I just find it ironic that it takes a two page expansionary essay to explain a toss strategy needed deal with a basic Terran opener.
I feel like I need to be a pro player to deal with a simple Terran build which I know is coming 9 out of 10 times. It's at the point where I don't even feel like playing anymore.
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On October 09 2010 07:32 whoopadeedoo wrote:
With PvT, what I've learned is you can never camp in your base (up-ramp) after about the 7min mark or else you're asking to get held in. It's exceedingly difficult for toss to break out of his own base if Terran is entrenched outside. This is true against MM concaves, bunkers, siege tanks, 1/1/1 with PDD, etc. So your units aren't going to be in your base anyhow for defense ... they'll be much closer to your natural, regardless of whether you're using the natural or not. The "two base" defense really is moot IMO.
I can see how faster tech to Templars could make a difference, but I'm not convinced that the timing window exists for terran to abuse medivacs against 2 base that it couldn't do against 1 base (or the timing window isn't very big and templars can be substituted by a couple stalkers in your main mineral line).
It's difficult for Stalkers to defend vs Medivac drops without support or blink. This is why PvT at higher level is so hard, because you have to camp to survive, but you also have to eventually break out otherwise you just get starved to death. However, there is no reason to expand if the T has not expanded yet. Once he sees you camping, he should expand, and that's your window to tech and expand hard while probing up. He can Medivac drop you during this time, but he's going to have a hard time following up the drop with any threat since he has to focus on getting his expansion up and going.
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On October 09 2010 08:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 07:32 whoopadeedoo wrote:
With PvT, what I've learned is you can never camp in your base (up-ramp) after about the 7min mark or else you're asking to get held in. It's exceedingly difficult for toss to break out of his own base if Terran is entrenched outside. This is true against MM concaves, bunkers, siege tanks, 1/1/1 with PDD, etc. So your units aren't going to be in your base anyhow for defense ... they'll be much closer to your natural, regardless of whether you're using the natural or not. The "two base" defense really is moot IMO.
I can see how faster tech to Templars could make a difference, but I'm not convinced that the timing window exists for terran to abuse medivacs against 2 base that it couldn't do against 1 base (or the timing window isn't very big and templars can be substituted by a couple stalkers in your main mineral line). It's difficult for Stalkers to defend vs Medivac drops without support or blink. This is why PvT at higher level is so hard, because you have to camp to survive, but you also have to eventually break out otherwise you just get starved to death. However, there is no reason to expand if the T has not expanded yet. Once he sees you camping, he should expand, and that's your window to tech and expand hard while probing up.
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them.
Have a small army on control group #2 and be ready to send them in your base.
Put pylons along the edges of your base.
Make two observers, and put one with his army, then another on the side of your base.
And if you are really paranoid, make a stargate, make 2-3 phoenix, and set them on patrol on the side of your base.
They really aren't THAT bad.
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On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:02 superstartran wrote:On October 09 2010 07:32 whoopadeedoo wrote:
With PvT, what I've learned is you can never camp in your base (up-ramp) after about the 7min mark or else you're asking to get held in. It's exceedingly difficult for toss to break out of his own base if Terran is entrenched outside. This is true against MM concaves, bunkers, siege tanks, 1/1/1 with PDD, etc. So your units aren't going to be in your base anyhow for defense ... they'll be much closer to your natural, regardless of whether you're using the natural or not. The "two base" defense really is moot IMO.
I can see how faster tech to Templars could make a difference, but I'm not convinced that the timing window exists for terran to abuse medivacs against 2 base that it couldn't do against 1 base (or the timing window isn't very big and templars can be substituted by a couple stalkers in your main mineral line). It's difficult for Stalkers to defend vs Medivac drops without support or blink. This is why PvT at higher level is so hard, because you have to camp to survive, but you also have to eventually break out otherwise you just get starved to death. However, there is no reason to expand if the T has not expanded yet. Once he sees you camping, he should expand, and that's your window to tech and expand hard while probing up. I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them.Have a small army on control group #2 and be ready to send them in your base. Put pylons along the edges of your base. Make two observers, and put one with his army, then another on the side of your base. And if you are really paranoid, make a stargate, make 2-3 phoenix, and set them on patrol on the side of your base. They really aren't THAT bad.
I guess that's why Blizzard is buffing Z buildings, because Medivac drops are just "annoying". It's the fact that the threat of a Medivac drop contains you to your base, and even if he does no damage he still gets free map control because of it for a very long time until you can get Templars out to Feedback snipe his Medivacs.
The T even if he makes a mistake is not really losing much as long as he isn't totally dumb with his Medivacs. He still gets free map control out of it, because you know you can't move out without him back stabbing a key building. However, if you as a P player make one slight mistake he gets a Nexus (main or expansion), Robo Bay, Templar archives, or alot of probes. Either way you're on the losing end.
If he's only dropping, he's not doing it right. Two prong attacked on your main and expo is how you do it. There's no way you will have the troops to defend against 2 Medivacs full of bio if you don't pull a significant chunk of your forces to defend that drop. Which opens up your expansion to an easy Maurader snipe.
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On October 09 2010 08:07 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 08:02 superstartran wrote:On October 09 2010 07:32 whoopadeedoo wrote:
With PvT, what I've learned is you can never camp in your base (up-ramp) after about the 7min mark or else you're asking to get held in. It's exceedingly difficult for toss to break out of his own base if Terran is entrenched outside. This is true against MM concaves, bunkers, siege tanks, 1/1/1 with PDD, etc. So your units aren't going to be in your base anyhow for defense ... they'll be much closer to your natural, regardless of whether you're using the natural or not. The "two base" defense really is moot IMO.
I can see how faster tech to Templars could make a difference, but I'm not convinced that the timing window exists for terran to abuse medivacs against 2 base that it couldn't do against 1 base (or the timing window isn't very big and templars can be substituted by a couple stalkers in your main mineral line). It's difficult for Stalkers to defend vs Medivac drops without support or blink. This is why PvT at higher level is so hard, because you have to camp to survive, but you also have to eventually break out otherwise you just get starved to death. However, there is no reason to expand if the T has not expanded yet. Once he sees you camping, he should expand, and that's your window to tech and expand hard while probing up. I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them.Have a small army on control group #2 and be ready to send them in your base. Put pylons along the edges of your base. Make two observers, and put one with his army, then another on the side of your base. And if you are really paranoid, make a stargate, make 2-3 phoenix, and set them on patrol on the side of your base. They really aren't THAT bad. I guess that's why Blizzard is buffing Z buildings, because Medivac drops are just "annoying". It's the fact that the threat of a Medivac drop contains you to your base, and even if he does no damage he still gets free map control because of it for a very long time until you can get Templars out to Feedback snipe his Medivacs.
It's a little different for zerg, or they would have buffed protoss buildings?
Good for him, he can have map control. I am fine on two bases till I get ht's out, once I do, I can just put 1-2 ht + 3/4 zealots in my main and go to town expanding as I please, putting up some cannons doesn't hurt aswell.
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You're thinking of Tester vs. JSLZenith in the Ro64 ( http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1036/21 ) and his defenses were pretty horrible for a 1 Gate FE build. He had a lot of tech buildings far away from his natural and SimCity that hurt himself more than it slowed his opponent down by putting the buildings on the northern side of his main. If anything, it totally proves kcdc's point that you can't put your buildings anywhere you want. The other major thing that hurt Tester in that game was the sheer number of Vikings taking out Colossi at will.
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On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them.
I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying......
The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in your main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway.
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On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in you main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway.
Why are you only picking statements out of what I say and not responding to the many ways you can prevent them in the first place.
You have invisible observers, they are somewhat cheap for the information they provide you with. You can see this stuff coming and react before they even make it to your base.
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Medivac drops are highly problematic, but I just don't see how they're more problematic for 2 base than one base openers. They really become an issue late game when you have multiple things going on where Terran can just sneak drops into multiple areas. As morrow says, it's very difficult for an opponent to account for all the drops Terran can do. But this has nothing to do with the early timing drops you/we are discussing right now, nor does 1 vs 2 base opening matter.
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On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in your main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway.
In the timing window we're talking about, we're talking about 1 medivac's worth of marauders .. hardly the doom scenario you're describing. By the time big drops can occur later game, you will have tech units available to deal with it. The difference between one or two base openings does not factor into these late game drops whatsoever. Actually, FE openings will put you in a better position to deal with late game medivacs.
No matter how you open, you're going to have to use resources to defend against the drop. I don't understand what you're arguing when it comes to having to have forces to defend against it.
Maybe it's because my macro mechanics need work, but I usually have enough warpgates available to warp in units to defend (or buy time) against one medivac's worth of bio when my perimeter pylons spot the incoming medivac.
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On October 09 2010 08:15 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in you main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway. Why are you only picking statements out of what I say and not responding to the many ways you can prevent them in the first place. You have invisible observers, they are somewhat cheap for the information they provide you with. You can see this stuff coming and react before they even make it to your base.
Because observers, pylons and phoenix don't prevent drops.
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On October 09 2010 08:21 Proximo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:15 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in you main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway. Why are you only picking statements out of what I say and not responding to the many ways you can prevent them in the first place. You have invisible observers, they are somewhat cheap for the information they provide you with. You can see this stuff coming and react before they even make it to your base. Because observers, pylons and phoenix don't prevent drops.
Then you don't use the information you receive correctly...
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If you have strategically placed pylons over the map, around your base, and observers out patroling and watching you should be ok. The best way I prevent them is i have an ob around his army and if I see a starport then i assume he could drop and just keep and eye on his army from time to time and you are bound to see him suck up a few units! Watch where hes going and warp in a few stalkers!
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I haven't been able to browse through this entire topic, but has the topic of using this build to deal with mmmg builds been explored? If so, can someone direct me to that page/post?
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The problem with medivacs in midgame where you're 2 base vs 1/2 base mmm is when you get dropped you need a disproportionate amount of your army to deal with it.
T commits 4 marauders and a medivac. You have to commit 4 zealots an immortal and 2 stalkers to deal with it or something like that. From there your army defending your natural is weaker and if T attacks you're weaker than he is comparatively than if you had your full armies.
Drops are problematic in general because protoss has to commit too much to stop them thanks to dropships healing a ridiculous amount and small protoss forces being generally ineffective.
Once you get chargelots drops are a lot less problematic because zealots can't be kited around nearly as easily.
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EPT
