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On October 17 2010 15:54 Drowsy wrote:Ok I've had some time to get used to this now. The only thing I've lost to vs a terran with this is mass banshee+a raven and some marines, mostly because my robo wasn't up yet and I hadn't scouted it yet. I don't like the dual forge+citadel transition you do in the replays. What seems to work best for me is getting the 4 warpgates up after expo, then throw down a robo and chrono out an obs and an immortal, then start teching to storm/charge/ground upgrades. Cheese does it in this replay and this build is just sexy as fuck, pvt is going to start looking pretty imbalanced after this catches on but before terrans start adjusting. http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-cheese-vs-t-ngry-lost-temple-10-17-2010
The replays are really old now. I change upgrade timings depending on what's happening in the game. I typically won't get upgrades until I feel I've established a military advantage.
But yes, I think 1-gate expansions are definitely catching on in PvT. I've seen Huk using them too.
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On October 17 2010 23:12 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 15:54 Drowsy wrote:Ok I've had some time to get used to this now. The only thing I've lost to vs a terran with this is mass banshee+a raven and some marines, mostly because my robo wasn't up yet and I hadn't scouted it yet. I don't like the dual forge+citadel transition you do in the replays. What seems to work best for me is getting the 4 warpgates up after expo, then throw down a robo and chrono out an obs and an immortal, then start teching to storm/charge/ground upgrades. Cheese does it in this replay and this build is just sexy as fuck, pvt is going to start looking pretty imbalanced after this catches on but before terrans start adjusting. http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-cheese-vs-t-ngry-lost-temple-10-17-2010 The replays are really old now. I change upgrade timings depending on what's happening in the game. I typically won't get upgrades until I feel I've established a military advantage. But yes, I think 1-gate expansions are definitely catching on in PvT. I've seen Huk using them too.
Yeah huk did lots of it at MLG DC 
I love it because its so versatile, just establish a solid economy and the beauty of the protoss tech tree lies ahead of you
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On October 17 2010 15:54 Drowsy wrote:Ok I've had some time to get used to this now. The only thing I've lost to vs a terran with this is mass banshee+a raven and some marines, mostly because my robo wasn't up yet and I hadn't scouted it yet. I don't like the dual forge+citadel transition you do in the replays. What seems to work best for me is getting the 4 warpgates up after expo, then throw down a robo and chrono out an obs and an immortal, then start teching to storm/charge/ground upgrades. Cheese does it in this replay and this build is just sexy as fuck, pvt is going to start looking pretty imbalanced after this catches on but before terrans start adjusting. http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-cheese-vs-t-ngry-lost-temple-10-17-2010
Leaves saying "I forgot the geysers at my natural" while sitting on 2000 gas. Good excuse.
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Just wanted to say thanks kcdc... I enjoy this build a lot I don't think I've played a game yet where I lost without doing something really stupid.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On October 14 2010 01:22 AlexXx wrote:This build works so well on the new two maps in the Ladder pool because its very easy to defend the FE. Here is a little game vs a 1200+ Terran where I would not let him expand. I am really surprised he did not try to kill that pylon, that little spot makes this map pretty great for toss i think. Ive been having great success on it. Enjoy <3 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157305.jpg)
This replay is of a 2gate robo -> expand? Are you sure it's the right one?
Btw tip: don't maynard THAT many probes next time when you expand, it's pointless.
2nd edit: keep building harvesters! You only had 34 workers. You should have about 60 workers when you're on two bases.
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I <3 this build. I lost alot with it at first but once i became more comfortable and got the timings down i started winning alot :3
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United States17042 Posts
this build is now pretty much the standard build at a high level ^^ <3 it
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On October 22 2010 03:51 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
this build is now pretty much the standard build at a high level ^^ <3 it
Yeah, I've been seeing 1-gate expands in lots of high level PvT VODs lately. One thing I've noticed is that the Protoss players are often getting up to 4 gates immediately after expanding, and then adding their robo early only if they don't scout marauders. You can't really support 4 gates that early if you're building probes at both bases--especially if you're getting a robo and additional assimilators--but I think it's a good idea defensively. If a big push does come, you can cut probes and produce out of all 4 gates with chronoboost. The problems are that it delays your observer a bit more (but this is more or less okay because you're far enough ahead economically to weather some probe kills from a cloaked banshee rush) and that if you're cutting probes for your gates, it puts you a little behind against Terran macro builds. I think it's a good idea tho. In exchange for spending 150 minerals a little earlier than you'd like to, you can feel much safer against early pressure. It also opens up better offensive options if you see T skimping on defense.
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On October 22 2010 04:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 03:51 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
this build is now pretty much the standard build at a high level ^^ <3 it Yeah, I've been seeing 1-gate expands in lots of high level PvT VODs lately. One thing I've noticed is that the Protoss players are often getting up to 4 gates immediately after expanding, and then adding their robo early only if they don't scout marauders. You can't really support 4 gates that early if you're building probes at both bases--especially if you're getting a robo and additional assimilators--but I think it's a good idea defensively. If a big push does come, you can cut probes and produce out of all 4 gates with chronoboost. The problems are that it delays your observer a bit more (but this is more or less okay because you're far enough ahead economically to weather some probe kills from a cloaked banshee rush) and that if you're cutting probes for your gates, it puts you a little behind against Terran macro builds. I think it's a good idea tho. In exchange for spending 150 minerals a little earlier than you'd like to, you can feel much safer against early pressure. It also opens up better offensive options if you see T skimping on defense.
I still prefer the build you posted where you cut probes for your second gateway and a robo. If i get rushed i am confident enough in my immortal control to take care of MM rushes, and if im not getting rushed i get a relatively fast observer to check out what T is doing.
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Hey kcdc, I'm curious what impact you think the map can have on this build. Are there any maps where you feel its especially weak or strong? I'm sorry if its been asked before but I didn't see any mention in the OP and the thread is 44 pages long
I am asking mostly because I've had good luck with this build generally, but gotten owned a couple of times on Dessert Oasis. One of the Ts I played made a comment that that was a bad map for it but I wasn't sure exactly why.
(1300 toss)
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Good map features are a long base to base distance and a small entry to your natural.
So best maps for this are shakuras, jungle basin, LT etc. where the worst are maps like metalopolis and scrap station.
The difference isn't big though and the strategy is very viable on every map. In general it's not really a very map dependant strategy as you won't rely on the map features all too much to defend.
@ firebolt, people are indeed maynarding way too many units in general in sc2. The perfect maynard economy wise is to cut your main down to 22 workers (6 gas, 16 minerals) and only maynard the rest to your expo. Then set both waypoints towards your expo till you reach 22 there and then fill each base up till 30 at the same time.
With a 30 food expand your nexus will generally finish while being at something like 38 food, 10 of which consisting of gateway units (you usually have 5 or 6 at that point). Ie, generally you'll be having around 28 probers so the ideal transfer is about 6 probes (less if you have scouting probes or building probes whatever scattered over the map).
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On October 22 2010 04:50 Shadrak wrote:Hey kcdc, I'm curious what impact you think the map can have on this build. Are there any maps where you feel its especially weak or strong? I'm sorry if its been asked before but I didn't see any mention in the OP and the thread is 44 pages long I am asking mostly because I've had good luck with this build generally, but gotten owned a couple of times on Dessert Oasis. One of the Ts I played made a comment that that was a bad map for it but I wasn't sure exactly why. (1300 toss)
On Jungle Basin, you can 1-gate expo earlier (26 food, before 3rd pylon) and take your gas earlier to use forcefields to defend. It's so easy to defend that from there you can rush for collosi or storm drops (my preference).
In general, longer push distances are good while short air distances make drops and banshees tougher to deal with. I actually have some trouble on Scrap Station because the air distance is short and the mid-game push distance is short (take down rocks). Air and mid-game pushes are much harder for this strat to deal with than early MM pressure.
XNC is good. Pretty long rush distance, lots of open areas where zealots are effective, easy to spot drops with towers and spotter pylons on the edges of the map, and the nat layout is pretty easy for P to defend (good chokes for FF's) and tougher for T to defend since bunkers can't cover the whole area.
DQ is probably the worst map out of the current ladder pool. Short rush distances in all positions, open nat that doesn't offer convenient spots to FF behind their troops, and an annoyingly spacious base layout that makes it hard to shut down drops.
Steppes is okay. You just have to be careful about preventing tanks from getting into position to siege your nat from the low ground.
As for DO, it's fine. You'll probably want to get blink earlier than usual because the main and nat are really far apart and if you don't have blink or phoenixes, it will be very difficult to defend drops. You can't skimp too much on zealots tho, as stalkers alone suck vs T. DO's out of the map pool now tho, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Overall, I think it can work on any of the current maps. You just need to know what to look out for, how quickly you can afford to tech while staying safe, and key spots to position spotter pylons/observers.
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On October 22 2010 06:01 kcdc wrote:
DQ is probably the worst map out of the current ladder pool. Short rush distances in all positions, open nat that doesn't offer convenient spots to FF behind their troops, and an annoyingly spacious base layout that makes it hard to shut down drops.
Delta quadrant is just a vile little map. Most "standard" strategies suck on DQ and everyone ends up doing weird builds or cheesing. The natural is badly placed and it happens to be two feet from your opponents base. When you play DQ you have to make a strategy just for it so i just removed it. I also removed jungle basin, its easy to expand but there is no viable third to take so everyone unsurprisingly FEs and then turtles.
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Firebolt145, thanks for your input, i think that my expand is still early, around 30 food. I still play this by the first post kcdc made because it has worked for me. :D
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On October 22 2010 06:01 kcdc wrote:
I actually have some trouble on Scrap Station because the air distance is short and the mid-game push distance is short (take down rocks). Air and mid-game pushes are much harder for this strat to deal with than early MM pressure.
Steppes is okay. You just have to be careful about preventing tanks from getting into position to siege your nat from the low ground.
it's funny because it's counter-intuitive but true - scrap station is harder than steppes for this
I've lost countless times on scrap station because terran harassed/attacked me with banshees while going for a MM push (heavier on marines ofc) at the same time; since the natural is the very far away from the main on scrap station, a banshee-harassment coming from both sides AND a MM-push is...well....I'll struggle to not bang my head against the wall when it happens to me again, I guess; you need ridiculously fast decision-making to not lose a mineral line: or your main army because you left too many stalkers back; nothing sucks more when you fend off both banshee-harassments to have the small MM-force kill your main army and a-move all over you afterwards
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On October 17 2010 23:18 leveller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 23:12 kcdc wrote:On October 17 2010 15:54 Drowsy wrote:Ok I've had some time to get used to this now. The only thing I've lost to vs a terran with this is mass banshee+a raven and some marines, mostly because my robo wasn't up yet and I hadn't scouted it yet. I don't like the dual forge+citadel transition you do in the replays. What seems to work best for me is getting the 4 warpgates up after expo, then throw down a robo and chrono out an obs and an immortal, then start teching to storm/charge/ground upgrades. Cheese does it in this replay and this build is just sexy as fuck, pvt is going to start looking pretty imbalanced after this catches on but before terrans start adjusting. http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-cheese-vs-t-ngry-lost-temple-10-17-2010 The replays are really old now. I change upgrade timings depending on what's happening in the game. I typically won't get upgrades until I feel I've established a military advantage. But yes, I think 1-gate expansions are definitely catching on in PvT. I've seen Huk using them too. Yeah huk did lots of it at MLG DC I love it because its so versatile, just establish a solid economy and the beauty of the protoss tech tree lies ahead of you HuK also lost to a Terran. As did Kiwikaki. And Nony.
If SeleCT hadn't taken out qxc, he would've tore through all the 'Toss players too, like he did at IEM NY.
Great strategy against lower level Terrans though.
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I haven't read through 44 pages, but does this build have any chance vs an aggressive style Terran going 2 rax into FE? If so can anyone please tell me what would be the best thing to do or transition into? From what I've seen SeleCT pretty much dominated HuK and Kiwikaki at MLG DC going just 2 Rax into FE.. Basically early Marauders and marines which owns Gateway units then transitioning into medivacs and vikings to harass with drops and nullify Collosi.
The only game that SeleCT lost was when he allowed the Protoss to make a giant Collosi ball of death, other then that, he pretty much had a greater economy than the Toss by pushing early with MM while utilizing drops to contain so he can expand.
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On October 22 2010 07:00 minru wrote:
I haven't read through 44 pages, but does this build have any chance vs an aggressive style Terran going 2 rax into FE? If so can anyone please tell me what would be the best thing to do or transition into? From what I've seen SeleCT pretty much dominated HuK and Kiwikaki at MLG DC going just 2 Rax into FE.. Basically early Marauders and marines which owns Gateway units then transitioning into medivacs and vikings to harass with drops and nullify Collosi.
The only game that SeleCT lost was when he allowed the Protoss to make a giant Collosi ball of death, other then that, he pretty much had a greater economy than the Toss by pushing early with MM while utilizing drops to contain so he can expand.
2-rax expand is just a solid opening against most any Protoss opening. There's not a go-to answer to win the game. 2-rax expands will give Terran enough units to run over a 1-gate FE Protoss in the mid-game unless P has collosi or storm, so you'll want to head for one of the two a little quicker than you would against a 1-base Terran. Fortunately, you can afford to tech a little more quickly because Terran's early pressure abilities are limited due to dumping minerals into the expansion.
If you scout a 2-rax expand, I'd first confirm that he has enough units to defend. If T isn't being responsible with bunkers (won't happen at high levels), you can often break the expansion. From there, I'd suggest a quick tech to collosi as it's much faster and therefore safer than trying for HT. T's expansion will also slow down his tech, so you'll have your collosi before he has a big fleet of vikings. Make sure to chrono range tho, as even without vikings, you'll be quite vulnerable to marauders until you have it. From there, you'll have to play it by ear. He'll respond with vikings, so you can either go double robo to get out enough collosi to end it before his viking count is high, add phoenixes to deal with the vikings, or tech to storm. You'll need a twilight council by this point anyway for charge, blink and 2/2 upgrades, so storm isn't that out of the way.
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On October 22 2010 08:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 07:00 minru wrote:
I haven't read through 44 pages, but does this build have any chance vs an aggressive style Terran going 2 rax into FE? If so can anyone please tell me what would be the best thing to do or transition into? From what I've seen SeleCT pretty much dominated HuK and Kiwikaki at MLG DC going just 2 Rax into FE.. Basically early Marauders and marines which owns Gateway units then transitioning into medivacs and vikings to harass with drops and nullify Collosi.
The only game that SeleCT lost was when he allowed the Protoss to make a giant Collosi ball of death, other then that, he pretty much had a greater economy than the Toss by pushing early with MM while utilizing drops to contain so he can expand. 2-rax expand is just a solid opening against most any Protoss opening. There's not a go-to answer to win the game. 2-rax expands will give Terran enough units to run over a 1-gate FE Protoss in the mid-game unless P has collosi or storm, so you'll want to head for one of the two a little quicker than you would against a 1-base Terran. Fortunately, you can afford to tech a little more quickly because Terran's early pressure abilities are limited due to dumping minerals into the expansion. If you scout a 2-rax expand, I'd first confirm that he has enough units to defend. If T isn't being responsible with bunkers (won't happen at high levels), you can often break the expansion. From there, I'd suggest a quick tech to collosi as it's much faster and therefore safer than trying for HT. T's expansion will also slow down his tech, so you'll have your collosi before he has a big fleet of vikings. Make sure to chrono range tho, as even without vikings, you'll be quite vulnerable to marauders until you have it. From there, you'll have to play it by ear. He'll respond with vikings, so you can either go double robo to get out enough collosi to end it before his viking count is high, add phoenixes to deal with the vikings, or tech to storm. You'll need a twilight council by this point anyway for charge, blink and 2/2 upgrades, so storm isn't that out of the way. This is what HuK did at IEM NY in the one map he took off qxc (Scrap Station). But this just doesn't work against a good player (he lost 4-1 or 3-1). MM + drops is too much. The Protoss players have consistently lost to 2-rax FE no matter how fast they get the Colossus.
Adding Phoenixes is a bit risky. Kiwikaki did hallucinate a bunch of Phoenixes to distract the Vikings long enough for his Colossi to do a lot of damage in one game at MLG DC (forgot against whom). It depends on how the battle plays out since any marines on the ground will hurt the Phoenixes who have to stay within range of the marines because the Vikings are there. If the Terran keeps the Vikings on the Colossus and focuses the Marines on the Phoenixes (or has them both quickly take down the Phoenixes)... On the other hand, if the Colossi kill all the marines fast enough, the Phoenixes will have a more even footing against the Vikings.
Have people experimented with just a quick tech to Zealot charge and Forge upgrades/cannons? While producing from 6 to 8 gates on 2 bases (and looking to quickly get a 3rd and put down a Templar Archives and Dark Shrine). Chargelots with +1 attack are just a lot more effective against everything, especially with Sentries. I haven't tried it at all, just theorycrafting.
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Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing
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EPT
