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On October 22 2010 17:52 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote:
it would be nice, if some of the toss players, who say: "i can defend banshee/marine push with fe build", to post some replays.
i found out, that its very hard to deal with early pressure of terran, with this strat, but if you micro good, you can defend it^^.
so, replays of a defended marine/banshee push would really be nice.
Hyperdub vs sanZenith twice in GSL2 (though he loses the second time cos he attacks after holding it instead of expanding. He holds well tho which is the point).
Even in theory it is obvious that it can hold. The expo has long since paid for itself by the time that rush hits, so it can hold it better than a 1base build can..
Neither of these wins have anything to do with the FE. Their FE had long since paid for itself, they made other mistakes.
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On October 22 2010 18:20 Yaotzin wrote:
Hyperdub vs sanZenith twice in GSL2 (though he loses the second time cos he attacks after holding it instead of expanding. He holds well tho which is the point).
well, tbh sanZenith lost because he tried to build a friggin Nexus at the bottom of T's ramp - if he had built more stuff and not tried to pull a MC he would have won right there I believe
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On October 22 2010 14:29 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 You crack me up. We need to get funkmunk in here to add more 2k+ credibility to the 'no, this really works' defense. Either that or I need to add 200 points to my ladder rating....
What's funny is i've been trying to make this strat work out for me since this post was first posted. Hei was the person that told me about it so I looked it up and have been practicing this strat vs lots of TOP TOP terran players. I really enjoy the micro aspect in early game and defending vs all these different types of harass. Sometimes I don't end up with economic advantage, but still it's a fun strat to do and I'm glad you came up with it ^^
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Anyone see HopeTorture vs. Pippijung just now?
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On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155995.jpg)
Did I do it right?
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On October 22 2010 23:05 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 Did I do it right?
Oh look, here is the game from the next day when it wasn't 3 in the morning.
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Im gonna be online on EU tonight if you want to add me and have some games
Honestly though, on a map like xelnaga ive never seen this sucessfully defended vs my variant of banshee marine, ghost all in or marine all in
But lets give it a go i got an open mind
brtarolg.805
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On October 22 2010 23:05 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 Did I do it right?
Where was the marine/marauder/hellion/scv rush? I saw some failface hellion stuff but nothing else 
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i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it.
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On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it.
Probably the same platinum-bronze players who respond "just baneling bust/mass roach/nydus bust" to the people wondering how to beat a PvZ fast expo.
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On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it.
To be fair, the marine-banshee-raven timing push is probably the most difficult to stop of the pushes you commonly see. You can counter it with a pretty early stargate (when gas is available after you have 3 gates + robo), but it's hard to know it's coming that early. You really want to start the stargate before your observer gets to their base. A scouting probe can sometimes poke up the ramp to see marines building up without tanks, and that will give you a good idea, but it's possible for T to deny the scout. Another thing you can do is if you get to T's base early with a zealot and stalker, you can do some good damage as T will only have 2-4 marines to defend and you'll be rallying stalkers across the map. I've made Terrans pull scvs to defend my 1-gate pressure many times when they're using this build, and it weakens their push quite a lot.
The push certainly can be defended, especially if you don't lose probes to harass, but it's not easy. You need to outplay the T.
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On October 23 2010 01:45 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it. To be fair, the marine-banshee-raven timing push is probably the most difficult to stop of the pushes you commonly see. You can counter it with a pretty early stargate (when gas is available after you have 3 gates + robo), but it's hard to know it's coming that early. You really want to start the stargate before your observer gets to their base. A scouting probe can sometimes poke up the ramp to see marines building up without tanks, and that will give you a good idea, but it's possible for T to deny the scout. Another thing you can do is if you get to T's base early with a zealot and stalker, you can do some good damage as T will only have 2-4 marines to defend and you'll be rallying stalkers across the map. I've made Terrans pull scvs to defend my 1-gate pressure many times when they're using this build, and it weakens their push quite a lot. The push certainly can be defended, especially if you don't lose probes to harass, but it's not easy. You need to outplay the T.
There is a push I can't hold, and that's a pure scv, raven 6+ tanks, scv all in, the time it comes is when you no longer have the option of giving up your nat. I've played him 3-4 times and I just can't beat it, the scvs provide too good of a meatshield, and tanks just rip your meatshields apart.
Saskuke does it if you've ever played him.
That is a realllllllllllllllllly old replay. I never 12 gate or throw down 3x more gates after the expansion, it's just not optimal.
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^ Yes i have lost to that shit a couple of times.
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On October 23 2010 02:23 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 01:45 kcdc wrote:On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it. To be fair, the marine-banshee-raven timing push is probably the most difficult to stop of the pushes you commonly see. You can counter it with a pretty early stargate (when gas is available after you have 3 gates + robo), but it's hard to know it's coming that early. You really want to start the stargate before your observer gets to their base. A scouting probe can sometimes poke up the ramp to see marines building up without tanks, and that will give you a good idea, but it's possible for T to deny the scout. Another thing you can do is if you get to T's base early with a zealot and stalker, you can do some good damage as T will only have 2-4 marines to defend and you'll be rallying stalkers across the map. I've made Terrans pull scvs to defend my 1-gate pressure many times when they're using this build, and it weakens their push quite a lot. The push certainly can be defended, especially if you don't lose probes to harass, but it's not easy. You need to outplay the T. There is a push I can't hold, and that's a pure scv, raven 6+ tanks, scv all in, the time it comes is when you no longer have the option of giving up your nat. I've played him 3-4 times and I just can't beat it, the scvs provide too good of a meatshield, and tanks just rip your meatshields apart. Saskuke does it if you've ever played him. That is a realllllllllllllllllly old replay. I never 12 gate or throw down 3x more gates after the expansion, it's just not optimal.
I've never seen that push. Giving up your nat wouldn't help much against tank+raven anyway because it just lets them seige your main from the low ground using your ramp against you. My best guess to beat it would be massing chargelot with a couple sentries for guardian shield and +1 armor if there's time, and trying to catch the tanks on the move. Grabbing an immortal or two to lead the attack if the tanks are already in siege mode is a good tactic as well. Marine-tank will mess you up pretty badly if you build too many stalkers.
I don't know tho since I've never faced it. I'd like to see replays tho if you have any.
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On October 23 2010 01:45 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it. To be fair, the marine-banshee-raven timing push is probably the most difficult to stop of the pushes you commonly see. You can counter it with a pretty early stargate (when gas is available after you have 3 gates + robo), but it's hard to know it's coming that early. You really want to start the stargate before your observer gets to their base. A scouting probe can sometimes poke up the ramp to see marines building up without tanks, and that will give you a good idea, but it's possible for T to deny the scout. Another thing you can do is if you get to T's base early with a zealot and stalker, you can do some good damage as T will only have 2-4 marines to defend and you'll be rallying stalkers across the map. I've made Terrans pull scvs to defend my 1-gate pressure many times when they're using this build, and it weakens their push quite a lot. The push certainly can be defended, especially if you don't lose probes to harass, but it's not easy. You need to outplay the T.
It's brutal as hell, that's for sure. In my opinion, the most dangerous opening, and gives T a lot of very effective options.
I've been throwing down a stargate along with either a forge or 2 more gateways. Chrono out Phoenixes, cut some econ and pump out units, or cannon the nat (the latter is more similar to sanZenith's defense in GSL). If at all possible, using the phoenixes to attack T can delay the push - attempting to take shots on the banshee or raven as the push out can wear down some of the hard-hitting units as well, but you run the risk of just losing the phoenix against a T with solid control if you're too aggressive. Cutting all probes and pumping units from either 5 gates or with 3 and cannons can usually hold off the push, but it'll also come down to micro to a degree - how much P can block with a guardian shield, the impact of the PDD, whether T focuses down phoenixes, etc.
I definitely agree with kcdc on the early aggression - I've done some 2zealot 1stalker pushes that have outright won the game against 1/1/1 openings by simply dealing crippling damage, just because of how little defense T gets in the opening of the game. It's absolutely essential that you check with a probe first to see what he's got though, because you can easily lose all your units to a few marauders otherwise - and a good T might hide his unit composition anyways.
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In regards to the 2 Zealot 1 Stalker poke/push, do you send in a probe first to scout for presence of Marauders? Because won't concussive shell Marauders just rape your 2 zealots if they are present?
I'm not doubting the poke/push btw, I just want to know if I need to have additional info before I do it.
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Absolutely, check with a probe up the ramp to get an idea of what kind of units he has. If you see something like 4~ marines, go. If you see any marauders whatsoever, it's a bad idea.
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On October 23 2010 00:15 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 23:05 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 Did I do it right? Oh look, here is the game from the next day when it wasn't 3 in the morning.
That was a GREAT game. My favorite thing about your style of play minigun is your low APM. Very calm and collected and just clicking when it matters.
gg very well played. Totally outmatched and outclassed your opponent.
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On October 23 2010 00:15 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 23:05 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 Did I do it right? Oh look, here is the game from the next day when it wasn't 3 in the morning.
Thanks for posting this was very educational. Its nice to see people doing well against flavor of the month terrans with this build. i think a big part of your woes was simply that jungle basin sucks because you have 2 entrances to your base and you have a huge base to cover. I don't think that T would have done so well if the map was metalopolis or xelnaga he would not of had so many opportunities to abuse Terran and drag the game on. I usually just cannon my natural against banshee harass but im gonna try phoenixes next time because of this replay  .
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First, Madison is pretty good. I've played him a bunch of times and his multi-pronged attacks are very hard to deal with. I know this is a Protoss-centric thread, but go easy on our Terran friends.
On October 23 2010 03:33 david0925 wrote:
In regards to the 2 Zealot 1 Stalker poke/push, do you send in a probe first to scout for presence of Marauders? Because won't concussive shell Marauders just rape your 2 zealots if they are present?
I'm not doubting the poke/push btw, I just want to know if I need to have additional info before I do it.
Regarding the 1-gate poke, if you get your gateway on time (13 works fine on small maps) and start your core and zealot as early as possible (core right when gate finishes, zealot right at 100 minerals so that it finishes at the same time as your core), and then double-chrono your stalker (the first chrono wears out at about 75% completion), you can get your zealot and stalker at T's base when he'll have 2-3 marines or a marine and a marauder. Remember to send your zealot ahead of time and let the stalker catch up. Don't stop to chase SCVs with your stalker. On smaller maps, you'll also get there before T has concussive shells. If T is going 1-1-1, he'll only have marines, so you can do solid damage by continuing to rally your stalkers across the map and abusing shield regen to pluck away.
If you show up 15 seconds late, however, you're shit out of luck and you can get your zealot and stalker killed by conc shell marauders. If you want to make the poke work on a longer map, you'll need to get your gateway a little earlier. I'd be interested to see how it works out with a 10-gate. If you've screwed up your timings a bit, you're probably better off not taking the risk with your zealot and stalker and sending a probe to scout the front.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157875.jpg)
