|
On October 23 2010 05:09 kcdc wrote:
Regarding the 1-gate poke, if you get your gateway on time (13 works fine on small maps) and start your core and zealot as early as possible (core right when gate finishes, zealot right at 100 minerals so that it finishes at the same time as your core), and then double-chrono your stalker (the first chrono wears out at about 75% completion), you can get your zealot and stalker at T's base when he'll have 2-3 marines or a marine and a marauder. Remember to send your zealot ahead of time and let the stalker catch up. Don't stop to chase SCVs with your stalker. On smaller maps, you'll also get there before T has concussive shells. If T is going 1-1-1, he'll only have marines, so you can do solid damage by continuing to rally your stalkers across the map and abusing shield regen to pluck away.
My timings may be a little different, but I have found you can nearly get out 2 zealots (w/ chrono) by the time the cybercore finishes. This would give your initial poke (after making your first stalker) a lot more power but it also does put you a little behind eco wise. Not sure if its a good idea or not.
|
On October 23 2010 05:42 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 05:09 kcdc wrote:
Regarding the 1-gate poke, if you get your gateway on time (13 works fine on small maps) and start your core and zealot as early as possible (core right when gate finishes, zealot right at 100 minerals so that it finishes at the same time as your core), and then double-chrono your stalker (the first chrono wears out at about 75% completion), you can get your zealot and stalker at T's base when he'll have 2-3 marines or a marine and a marauder. Remember to send your zealot ahead of time and let the stalker catch up. Don't stop to chase SCVs with your stalker. On smaller maps, you'll also get there before T has concussive shells. If T is going 1-1-1, he'll only have marines, so you can do solid damage by continuing to rally your stalkers across the map and abusing shield regen to pluck away.
My timings may be a little different, but I have found you can nearly get out 2 zealots (w/ chrono) by the time the cybercore finishes. This would give your initial poke (after making your first stalker) a lot more power but it also does put you a little behind eco wise. Not sure if its a good idea or not.
Cybercore takes 50 seconds to build. Zealot build time is 38 seconds. With constant chronoboost, you can complete 2 zealots in 50.67 seconds (requires 3 chronoboosts). I suppose it's possible to make a 2 zealot + 1 stalker push only a second later than a 1 zealot + 1 stalker push, but you'd need to cut probes so that you have 250 minerals when the gateway finishes, and you'd need to save up chrono so that you can use 4 consecutively on your gateway. I'd never thought of doing this honestly. Your economy would definitely take a hit, but it might be worth it on small maps if your scouting suggests that they won't be walled in. Walling in with a depot would make the probe-cutting a bad trade. I might try this out w/ a 12-gate on Steppes if they're not walling.
|
On October 22 2010 23:05 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 11:01 Minigun wrote:On October 22 2010 09:26 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 22 2010 09:04 BrTarolg wrote:
Just out of interest, ive been playing around with terran for a while now
Pretty much all my protoss friends (ranging from 1600-2000 on EU) arn't able to 1 gate FE vs any of my 1 base all in terran builds (if i see protoss expand, ill just go all in) - even if i let him expand and macro up before he makes his first stalker, i will still roll him
I would say at the 2k+ level, terrans (should) be good enough to have prepared a build order which can absolutely roll 1 gate FE based on scouting
If you have an eu account, feel free to add many any time (brtarolg.805) and i can show you some of the builds. My main is protoss, but i pretty much exclusively play TvP (and no other matchups lol) with my friends
One example build would be certain variations on the banshee/marine all in (its a disguised techlab on the barracks to look like an early marauder push) or an all in version of a ghost timing This, ive rolled this build and kcdc along with it on numerous occasions three marauder one rine two hellion 4 scv rush on short distance base maps seems to be more than enough, never mind the marine banshee timing push, ive found you can have combat shield and stim by the time your ready to push, be happy to give replays Lol good ole madison prolly one of the most annoying terrans i play with his damn infantry drops Please "roll" me with it. I'd love to be "rolled". Char: Minigun Code : 865 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155995.jpg) Did I do it right?
Lol good ole madison prolly one of the most annoying terrans i play with his damn infantry drops
|
heres a example of me using that rush i dunno maybe if the toss did something wrong?
This is my practice name btw BW throwback
Protoss FE rush
he does a nice counter warp prism drop but then losses to my counter all in haha poor guy
|
ive made this build work quite a few times too, worst case scenario they hold it off but bring a bunch of probes off mining to get roasted by hellions
|
On October 23 2010 03:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 02:23 Minigun wrote:On October 23 2010 01:45 kcdc wrote:On October 23 2010 01:15 TehForce wrote:
i dont get all the people saying that this opening isnt viable. Its used in GSL, its used in MLG its used by Day[9], its used by ton of people in the ladder. It is a good bo and there is no hard-counter to it. To be fair, the marine-banshee-raven timing push is probably the most difficult to stop of the pushes you commonly see. You can counter it with a pretty early stargate (when gas is available after you have 3 gates + robo), but it's hard to know it's coming that early. You really want to start the stargate before your observer gets to their base. A scouting probe can sometimes poke up the ramp to see marines building up without tanks, and that will give you a good idea, but it's possible for T to deny the scout. Another thing you can do is if you get to T's base early with a zealot and stalker, you can do some good damage as T will only have 2-4 marines to defend and you'll be rallying stalkers across the map. I've made Terrans pull scvs to defend my 1-gate pressure many times when they're using this build, and it weakens their push quite a lot. The push certainly can be defended, especially if you don't lose probes to harass, but it's not easy. You need to outplay the T. There is a push I can't hold, and that's a pure scv, raven 6+ tanks, scv all in, the time it comes is when you no longer have the option of giving up your nat. I've played him 3-4 times and I just can't beat it, the scvs provide too good of a meatshield, and tanks just rip your meatshields apart. Saskuke does it if you've ever played him. That is a realllllllllllllllllly old replay. I never 12 gate or throw down 3x more gates after the expansion, it's just not optimal. I've never seen that push. Giving up your nat wouldn't help much against tank+raven anyway because it just lets them seige your main from the low ground using your ramp against you. My best guess to beat it would be massing chargelot with a couple sentries for guardian shield and +1 armor if there's time, and trying to catch the tanks on the move. Grabbing an immortal or two to lead the attack if the tanks are already in siege mode is a good tactic as well. Marine-tank will mess you up pretty badly if you build too many stalkers. I don't know tho since I've never faced it. I'd like to see replays tho if you have any.
It's really really hard to hold atm I am not sure it's possible. I wish I had saved the replays. I'll ask him if he saved them by chance.
|
You guys watching these Blizzcon games? There's nothing to this FE if you're up against any kind of competent Terran who's noticed a lot of the Protoss players are all doing it. Loner is by no means the best Terran from GSL. He just blindly guessed Genius was probably doing it again and punished him for it.
|
That's a fairly harsh assessment. Loner tried the same thing in game 1 and got crushed. It worked in game 3 but Nexgenius did delay the expo a little (took 2nd gas, which was a fake, but it still delayed the nexus by almost a minute). He also went for a stalker/sentry composition as opposed to a zealot/stalker composition, which is only better if your forcefields are perfect (and even then I still think having some zealots to tank is very helpful). The game he beat Huk had nothing to do with the FE and everything to do with loner's great harrassment + macro (I only saw the first game of that set so not sure what happened after).
|
On October 24 2010 04:28 Lunchtime wrote:
You guys watching these Blizzcon games? There's nothing to this FE if you're up against any kind of competent Terran who's noticed a lot of the Protoss players are all doing it. Loner is by no means the best Terran from GSL. He just blindly guessed Genius was probably doing it again and punished him for it.
genius had horrible unit selection. I mean come on, you have 2 stalkers so you warp in 3 sentries to hold a push?
That was a horrible decision. He lost his expo due to his unit selection.
It may be mandatory to pump out an immortal instead of a observer right away, at least on close position maps, thor rushes are becoming more common.
|
On October 24 2010 05:05 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 04:28 Lunchtime wrote:
You guys watching these Blizzcon games? There's nothing to this FE if you're up against any kind of competent Terran who's noticed a lot of the Protoss players are all doing it. Loner is by no means the best Terran from GSL. He just blindly guessed Genius was probably doing it again and punished him for it. genius had horrible unit selection. I mean come on, you have 2 stalkers so you warp in 3 sentries to hold a push? That was a horrible decision. He lost his expo due to his unit selection. It may be mandatory to pump out an immortal instead of a observer right away, at least on close position maps, thor rushes are becoming more common.
Yeah those koreans are sentry hungry,sentries was a pretty bad idea considering that loner is MMM happy and that push could of been kited by mass stalkers. Loner even cut Conc shells to get that push and attacked without stim, so those marauders were asking to be kited to death.
EDIT: watched the game again, NEXgenius made the blunder of having 2 stalkers and 3 sentries when the push came >.<, had he made a zealot instead of the worthless second gas and made stalkers that push could of been defended soooooo easily.
|
I feel like a lot of people favor the stalkers more than zealots because of their range but they are just so freakin weak against maraders. Zealots are so meaty and take a lot more hits compared to the stalker. Ive been trying to use zealots far more and its really helping especially with solid force fields.
Also with that zlot/stalker push/poke, if i end up doing a good amount of dmg or see him hard teching, i usually just go 4 gate and keep on pushing harder and harder and annoying the Terran into submission. here Is a replay from the last patch 1.1.1, i think its pertinent if i remembered correctly.
|
On October 03 2010 17:27 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 16:46 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Two questions with this build
1. What do you do against a marine+scv push (either very early or about 8 minutes) on short map positions? Do you just abandon the expo? The way I've dealt with these pushes is to FF the ramp and split a couple marines from the group, but this obviously would require that I let the expo die.
2. Transitioning into late game against MMM, what should be my mindset? I know this is a pretty open-ended question, but medivacs gives me fits. 1. This is a situation where Agh's double gas FE build is superior. Just abandon the expo and turtle your ramp with forcefields while waiting for your colossus. A terran who went all in with marines and scvs has absolutely no way to beat the colossus counter push that follows. 2. The prevalent PvT mid-late game styles are colossus/phoenix/blink and chargelot/HT. Both can defend against drop harass easily if you build enough scouting pylons to see medivacs coming. The former has become popular in Korea since it solves the viking weakness of colossi, while the latter is used mostly by NA/EU players due to the incredible efficiency of Khaydarin amulet templars. The colossus route is safer, but zealot/HT has amazing synergy with carriers if you want to switch to that.
This is mainly a response to the embedded quote but you should really send a probe or a stalker to see what he has up his ramp. Early game if you see only marines with your probe go back with your stalker and get a better look.
There is a very tiny window where the all in can be fairly crippling but you basically just have to sac the expo.
If you suspect a 3+rax marine all in based on your scout you just need to spam sentries and zealots as fast as you can and omit probe production.
What I do is immediately throw down my tech structure, if I already haven't [Robo into bay] and just get heavy sentry zealot.
If it is just marine scv then you should have enough sentry energy to endless spam ff on ramp until you get a colossi out.
tbqh the most threatening thing you can come across with a 1gate FE is a marine ghost push, since you're relying so heavily on sentries and immortal until colossi.
As with the above (marine + scv) if T hasn't expo'd yet just sac the expo and spread your sentries and continually ff ramp until colossi.
For #2 Simply don't attack until you know that you are ahead. I unfortunately don't have the time to list every timing window but things to look for are Ghosts and 2nd reactor starport.
At a point you will have to decide between taking a 3rd (alot depends on map) or going for that timing attack, based on your scouting with observers. When they game gets to a 3rd base you will obviously need to be able to stay in the game, If there is any banshee or tank play I would omit going for storm and start making phoenix.
Also in general make sure you get a forge for +1 and cannons.
|
Minigun, great game vs madison. i would have been freakin out if i was getting semi contained from the side like that. very scary stuff, you handled it so calmly and very collected.
here is a really fun game i just played with the FE build, i have been trying to utilize drops a lot more often and and its really working out quite well.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160332.jpg)
|
NEXGenius and Huk both seem to have started using the same variation of this build. They go for extremely fast 4 gates, and then a relatively quick robo afterwards. So congrats kcdc, your build has finally been spread to the pro scene.
|
so, after GSL what do you think about the NEXGenius-style to go for the FE even faster, I think ~25-26 supply?
|
As far as I can tell thats basically a result of NEXGenius skipping the first zealot and going stalker-sentry.
Personally, I can see why he prefers it, because as someone else mentioned if you have perfect FFs you can still hold everything - but I don't really see how he expects to know if a banshee rush is coming, because stalker/sent cant poke anywhere near as well as stalker/zealot can.
|
On October 25 2010 18:18 sleepingdog wrote:
so, after GSL what do you think about the NEXGenius-style to go for the FE even faster, I think ~25-26 supply?
I think that's okay on long rush distances or if you're using scouting cues that suggest there won't be early pressure, but skipping the zealot will get you killed a lot if you try it every game. I've used it a lot on Jungle Basin, but I'm not even sure it's much better economically than an expansion at ~30 where you constantly build probes. If you want to skimp on defense for better economy, I'd suggest using extra chrono on probes instead of your gateway and getting your nexus at the standard time. I've felt that having more probes to transfer gives you a bigger econ boost than a slightly earlier nexus, but I haven't tested it.
|
I'll say a bit about nexgenius play since a lot of people are curious about it.
1. The first thing to note is the early 2nd gas. This is mainly for deception and perhaps for a bit more gas fast for sentry, but it also makes production significantly worse. He makes 2nd gas instead of a zealot, plus those are 75+minerals spent early on non-production structures. Besides deception, 2nd gas would only be good if one was doing a high sentry build.
2. genius vs select game3 at 6:35 he ad 6units. genius vs loner on lt he had 5units. Possible to have 7units earlier than that. That shows how the zealot+minerals plays in, and other production factors.
3. This guy is terrible at spending cronoboosts. vs select game 3 at 9min he had 100nrg on both nexus. Pretty bad also vs loner on lt.
4. So his overall plan is 1-2units expo to 4gateway. Later robo means more difficulties vs cloak. Fewer units early means more difficulties vs aggressive early play. The only real advantages to genius style was possible deception with 2nd gas/potential more sentries, and faster nexus since he only gets 1-2units before it.
|
On October 25 2010 23:51 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:18 sleepingdog wrote:
so, after GSL what do you think about the NEXGenius-style to go for the FE even faster, I think ~25-26 supply? I think that's okay on long rush distances or if you're using scouting cues that suggest there won't be early pressure, but skipping the zealot will get you killed a lot if you try it every game. I've used it a lot on Jungle Basin, but I'm not even sure it's much better economically than an expansion at ~30 where you constantly build probes. If you want to skimp on defense for better economy, I'd suggest using extra chrono on probes instead of your gateway and getting your nexus at the standard time. I've felt that having more probes to transfer gives you a bigger econ boost than a slightly earlier nexus, but I haven't tested it.
No need to, you're right. If you want to boost eco you should start by using boost on probes rather than gate. If you think there isn't going to be any pressure at all then you should boost probes and cut units to drop the nexus early.
|
What i figure out for nexgenius he only 3 times crono his nexus then all on warp gates and robo.he never rush for macro probes like all you did.terran is OP in early game.so nexgenius delays this with not macring his probes and he gets 4 collo in 140 sec.then all game he goes 4 gate one robo and all crono for collos.then he adds citidel and forge for upgrates.he never rushed for corono probes like all you did.i tried it myself today and win all my vs terran games.if i crono for probes i will have 4 less unit and 2 delayed collo.45 probes is enough to make 5 collo.
so eco is not important the fact is to get 4 collo in 140 second.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157570.jpg)
