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On October 28 2010 23:43 Markwerf wrote:
Does anyone agree that scouting in a small 2 player map is unneccesary vs terran now using this build? I find that not scouting nets me about 100 minerals which i use to squeeze in another zealot before my first stalker. I simply use that first zealot then to scout instead of a probe, on 2 player maps it can always manage to take a peak of their base and see what's up. Worst case scenario they have a reaper and kill the zealot (which is nearly free if you don't scout) and then you know exactly what they opened with already.
2 zealots chrono'd take 51 secs, almost exactly the time it takes to make a cybercore. You do need one extra chrono so you can only chrono your nexus twice but that's no big deal.
It just seems to me scouting a terran is only useful for determining their position and to probe harass a bit. Probe harass is ok but costs you more then them if you send a probe early only for that reason and for any other information I generally poke their front anyway.
The important information, do they go techlab, reactor and/or factory can usually just as easily be done with a zealot instead of a probe. (also you tend to lose the probe if you want to determine what they do after the first rine, whereas a zealot just pokes a bit and backs off).
The extra zealot also allows for much better pressure at tech builds as you will be arriving with 2 zealots by the time you normally have 1 if you skip scouting.
95% of the time, the scouting probe is probably useless. Sometimes, T will do weird builds like no-gas FE or SCV cutting for super-early 3-rax. These might make you want to change up your BO, so it's useful to know it's happening early. You're probably just as safe against proxies w/o the scouting (you just need your second pylon near your choke so you'll know if he's bunkering) since the proper response is exactly what you'd be doing anyway.
It's a good idea tho. What's your BO for 2 zealots while cybercore builds? I found that I needed to cut too many probes for it to be worthwhile, but maybe not scouting gives you enough minerals to avoid some of the probe cutting.
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I still feel safer with the early scout. I harass with it to make terran pull off a scv to deal with my probe, and the two things I look for are gas count (no gas means marine all-in, two gas means fast tech) and rax count. If I see 2 rax with one lab built before my probe escapes or dies, I'll often opt for a faster 3rd gate after expo before I robo. I think it makes a difference against proxies too. The reason 1 gate FE holds against Terran is because you can reinforce the attack/defense much faster than Terran can. However, with an aggressive multi-rax proxy, he can reinforce almost as fast. And of course if he's proxy'ing close to your natural, taking FE is dangerous, so if I scout proxy builds, I'll abandon FE and go for a 2 or 3 gate double gas robo.
I gate at 13 and zealot after core is started. My zealot pops out as soon as my core is done, so there isn't time to build two zealots for me without cutting down my stalker count. I find one zealot early is more than plenty, with more stalkers needed than zealots. Gating at 13 nets a really efficient use of econ IME: The zealot pops out as soon as the core is done, and you have exactly enough minerals and gas to pump out a stalker and research warp
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Also, I don't know if this is the case for everyone, Terrans cheese me quite a bit. I feel like I scout scv cutting for extra barracks or a proxy barracks pretty often. And people bring SCVs w/ MM without even scouting my expo all the freaking time. Makes me want to change my ID....
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LOL. Yeah, probably has to do with your ID. I get cheesed only about 10% of the time by T. Most Terran go for some tech build (1/1/1, banshee play, polt, mmm) or early MM aggression against me. I don't see proxies or scv all-ins very often.
Not really on topic, but I don't get to play against T as often as I'd like anymore. For whatever reason, since patch 1.1.2, literally 60+% of my opponents have been 1600-2000pt zerg. It's getting to the point of being ridiculous.
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I've been using this build for a long time. But I got dominated just now, and it was the first time I felt utterly BO-countered.
After scouting my expo, the terran all-in off 2 rax and sent 5-6 scvs along. I sacrifice my expo, he bunker contains and takes the gold.
I probably should have engaged while the bunkers were going up, but running down the tight ramp is such bad positioning.
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On October 29 2010 03:14 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Not really on topic, but I don't get to play against T as often as I'd like anymore. For whatever reason, since patch 1.1.2, literally 60+% of my opponents have been 1600-2000pt zerg. It's getting to the point of being ridiculous.
So true! Even at my crappy Plat level I've been facing FAR more Zergs than Terrans post patch. I can go a whole session without running into a single Terran.
Back on topic though, I still love this strat. It's made my PvT a lot more manageable than it used to be.
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hmm....I like scouting at 9 because I like harassing with my probe. If the terran has a bad building placement I sometimes chrono-boost out a zealot and do some harassment with probe/zealot into the mineral line. Also on most of the 1v1 maps that come to my mind (blistering, xel naga, scrap station) there are very valuable towers that I like to claim with my scouting probe to be prepared for early aggression. Sometimes I won't transfer probes immediately if I scout early aggression to avoid easy probe kills.
Also if terran walls off they will most likely go for a 1/1/1 build which means that I will use my stalker to make quick look up the ramp afterwards to see if he maybe has marines only (which means about 90% probability for banshee-tech).
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On October 29 2010 03:09 kcdc wrote:
Also, I don't know if this is the case for everyone, Terrans cheese me quite a bit. I feel like I scout scv cutting for extra barracks or a proxy barracks pretty often. And people bring SCVs w/ MM without even scouting my expo all the freaking time. Makes me want to change my ID....
yeah you tend to play the same people on the ladder over and over, so when u combine that with the fact that you advertise your build on team liquid it makes you pretty predictable, my advice for you is to try to find at least one other build order to use if you think people are catching on to your build, or just cheese every once ina while lol
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My build for no scouting is just:
9 pylon
chronoboost nexus 2 times.
13 gate
15 gas
16 pylon
18 cyber and zealot, CB the zealot.
2nd zealot straight after first, CBing it also.
pylon
stalker and warpgate tech when 2nd zealot is done.
If you don't scout and let your probes work as efficiently as possible ie. build everything close to base etc. then this build will work out smoothly. Your stalker might be 3 or 4 secs later then the normal build but this isn't a issue.
Against proxy rushes etc. it doesn't matter really what you used. If you play this style your first zealot will arrive at their base and see what's up, then he can attack their scv's while you start extra gate's and defend your own base (you will have 1 zealot and 1 stalker building just like the normal build has). The best thing terran can do against this imo is to get a reaper straight after their first rine and kill your first zealot, in which case you will just pull back.
Losing a zealot costs you 100m, losing your scouting probe 50m, but not scouting generates much more then that 50m difference..
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On October 29 2010 20:39 Markwerf wrote:
My build for no scouting is just:
9 pylon
chronoboost nexus 2 times.
13 gate
15 gas
16 pylon
18 cyber and zealot, CB the zealot.
2nd zealot straight after first, CBing it also.
pylon
stalker and warpgate tech when 2nd zealot is done.
If you don't scout and let your probes work as efficiently as possible ie. build everything close to base etc. then this build will work out smoothly. Your stalker might be 3 or 4 secs later then the normal build but this isn't a issue.
Against proxy rushes etc. it doesn't matter really what you used. If you play this style your first zealot will arrive at their base and see what's up, then he can attack their scv's while you start extra gate's and defend your own base (you will have 1 zealot and 1 stalker building just like the normal build has). The best thing terran can do against this imo is to get a reaper straight after their first rine and kill your first zealot, in which case you will just pull back.
Losing a zealot costs you 100m, losing your scouting probe 50m, but not scouting generates much more then that 50m difference..
The problem with losing the zealot, is you need literally every unit, if a push comes.
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But if he uses a reaper to kill the zealot the push won't be as deadly since he's blowing his gas and rax build time on a reaper.
I can see how his approach may be superior...if he doesnt reaper it you have 2 zealots instead of one. If he does, you know he's reapering and you should be good to go with a stalker. I also rarely see reaper anymore since stalker own them so hard.
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Hey, first thank you for this great build, could you upload a little pack of new replays ?
I noticed in the last one you posted and the ones of minigun that you tend to expand quite later than in the original BO and the rep provided on first page.
I guess it is normal that the BO evolutes but that would be really nice from you if you could talk quickly about the latest evolutions and upload some replays of these.
Btw this build is my standard against T but I think some of my timings need to be improved.
Thank you lots again !
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@ minigun. A reaper would kill the zealot but at the same time that zealot buys time so your probes won't be hurt. In the end that zealot is basically 'free' (because of not scouting) so losing it is not an issue really. Not scouting and losing a zealot leaves you with a better economy then scouting and losing your scouting probe.
Against anything that isn't reaper your zealot will basically be able to tell what they do AND you will have 1 more zealot compared to the normal build.
Marine all-ins are not really troublesome as you can just poke with 2 zealots and your stalker which is really strong against only marines. Generally you can see what they are up to then anyways and otherwise a marine allin is pretty easy to stop anyway (just forcefield the ramp, cancel nexus, warp in another sentry or 2 and tech to colossi).
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On October 30 2010 20:08 IroOn wrote:
Hey, first thank you for this great build, could you upload a little pack of new replays ?
I noticed in the last one you posted and the ones of minigun that you tend to expand quite later than in the original BO and the rep provided on first page.
I guess it is normal that the BO evolutes but that would be really nice from you if you could talk quickly about the latest evolutions and upload some replays of these.
Btw this build is my standard against T but I think some of my timings need to be improved.
Thank you lots again !
I almost always expand at 30 (29 if I lose the scouting probe). I'll expand at 32 if I feel like chronoing out an extra stalker will help me do extra damage with my initial poke.
I don't think the world needs any more of my replays tho. Check out Huk's PvT. I believe he uses 1-gate FE quite a lot vs T.
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On October 31 2010 00:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 20:08 IroOn wrote:
Hey, first thank you for this great build, could you upload a little pack of new replays ?
I noticed in the last one you posted and the ones of minigun that you tend to expand quite later than in the original BO and the rep provided on first page.
I guess it is normal that the BO evolutes but that would be really nice from you if you could talk quickly about the latest evolutions and upload some replays of these.
Btw this build is my standard against T but I think some of my timings need to be improved.
Thank you lots again ! I almost always expand at 30 (29 if I lose the scouting probe). I'll expand at 32 if I feel like chronoing out an extra stalker will help me do extra damage with my initial poke. I don't think the world needs any more of my replays tho. Check out Huk's PvT. I believe he uses 1-gate FE quite a lot vs T.
lol bitter your name is with your strat are ya? Like echoic, I bet he hates hellion dropping now.
I must say, I'm in the dark vs FE toss still. So I'm glad they rush you =P
I've been seeing some odd variations of the build, like a 2 gate expo followed by a fast robo and another gate. I don't pressure too much early vs toss so maybe thats why I lose vs FE's.
My question to you is, how would you deal with a marine only force + stim early? Just forcefields and snipe with stalkers?
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kcdc, dont be discouraged... Every protoss owes you :D
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On October 26 2010 14:00 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote:
did anyone ever defend a marine/banshee/raven push while playing this build? currently for me its impossible, cause you cant really scout it in time, and i see no way to defend it.
Did anyone ever beat this while fast expanding? so add replay plz, cause i really see no way.
You can sack the expansion if he PDDs it and come back out and destroy him due to superior troop count. That particular push comes way too late and you will be too far ahead economically even when you lose the expansion.
Ideally you'd like to engage him far ahead of time so that he can't PDD the expansion. Otherwise adding more Sentry then Stalker helps, since the Sentry can actually take out the PDD pretty quick, allowing your Sentry/Stalker to focus and mow down Banshees while your Zealots tank and clean-up marines.
Strat is finally viable due to Nexus buffs / Medivac nerfs. No more having to deal with constant Nexus snipes.
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No, I'm not bitter. I think the opening is solid enough that as long as I scout well, I can respond to most anything. I do it every game vs T, and when people ask at the start of the game, I'll tell them. I change up my aggression and tech patterns quite a bit, so it's not like I'm laying my entire hand on the table.
I just don't think the world needs more of my replays because I'm not very good. There are muuuuch better players than me going 1-gate FE vs T now. You don't need to see my 70 APM hold a 3-rax.
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Do you have a replay defending a 3 thor scv repair rush?
That's about the only rush I haven't figured out yet.
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On October 31 2010 00:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 20:08 IroOn wrote:
Hey, first thank you for this great build, could you upload a little pack of new replays ?
I noticed in the last one you posted and the ones of minigun that you tend to expand quite later than in the original BO and the rep provided on first page.
I guess it is normal that the BO evolutes but that would be really nice from you if you could talk quickly about the latest evolutions and upload some replays of these.
Btw this build is my standard against T but I think some of my timings need to be improved.
Thank you lots again ! I almost always expand at 30 (29 if I lose the scouting probe). I'll expand at 32 if I feel like chronoing out an extra stalker will help me do extra damage with my initial poke. I don't think the world needs any more of my replays tho. Check out Huk's PvT. I believe he uses 1-gate FE quite a lot vs T.
I've also seen socke use this build a lot - everybody check out the games of socke vs predy....(actually not only if you are interested in the FE, the games were awsome)
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EPT
