EPT3 Thor rushes are much easier for me to handle because I can have T3 units ready if I scout it. It's the 1 thor rush that pushes when I have nothing but pea shooters.
[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 50
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
3 Thor rushes are much easier for me to handle because I can have T3 units ready if I scout it. It's the 1 thor rush that pushes when I have nothing but pea shooters. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
1) I dont scout on 2 player maps with probe, on 4 player maps I scout after core often in the reverse direction if his scout is late. 2) I go nexus after 1 zealot 1 stalker at exactly 24/26, after that > pylon, stalker, 3 gates or 2 gates robo in case of heavy tech suspected. This part is very important. As you see I cut a lot of probes to get the expo and gates very fast but it pays off. Gates come faster than the warp tech finishes so I chrono it once or twice. Also I have a fast nexus with chrono and first nexus with a lot of energy saved. All of it means I am very safe against early pushes with 4 gates, not being commited to probes and a lot of energy to chrono the gates. Yes I dont have the probes to maynard from main but: - if I see there is no rush coming I can resume probe production before adding gates. - I have a faster 2nd nexus which solves oversaturation problem and helps to mass probes. 3) I send the zealot and stalkers to apply pressure at the terran. If he techs I can usually force a bunker after which I mass probes and go tech myself. Sometimes I win outright when the opponent scouts my fe and thinks he doesnt need to defend or tries an fe himself. 4) The pushes I have troubles with are: - thor pushes (i encountered it only once and lost to it) - mass mmm pushes. This is kind of strange as at that point I have already established superior economy but they kill me once in a while before I can get my colossus out. It probably happens because of how late I'm with my robo expecting a fast mm push while prefering to use resources on units instead of probes. Need to work out the timings for this kind of pushes. 5) Late game I transition into carriers. Though people say they suck and they take forever to build I feel there is no way to take them out unless the terran at least matches me in eco, which he never should if this build is played right. Also without carriers I have problems cracking up the massed seiged up locations or planetary fortresses. | ||
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Cadaver
6 Posts
 first of all, im not as good as those people playing GSL....  Iv'e been trying to get better in my PvT, and this Strat is the one im working on. I'm having troubles with Terrans pushing "8-10 min ish" Like this: *replay* http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=162558 What am I doing wrong? thx alot. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Against any rush that is not MMM it is actually pretty good to have immortals and a early robo. Against a tank push immortals are obviously fantastic. Against a raven/marine/banshee push immortals are fairly good as well. This seems counterintuitive but they don't trigger PDD and they last longer against banshee's then stalkers. I always get phoenixes to actually kill the PDD and phoenix so immortals to kill their marines/hellions/whatever are actually pretty good. Against a thor push immortals are great as well. So to put it short immortals and thus the robo is great against any non-MMM push imo so getting it asap against those is sweet. Generally I just scout their barracks and if they went with a quick tech lab I go 3 gateways then a robo. If i scout something else I go robo then a 2nd gate. Either way you're always set to defend well. As for getting the nexus earlier... Imo it's horrible. The supposedly better economy you have is only worse because you are cutting probes to do so. Cutting zealots etc to get the nexus earlier is ok but requires extremely good intel about what the terran is up too. I suggest to just stick to the original build as it is overall just the most efficient. As for late or not scouting I think it's definately the best way to go now. By not scouting you can just afford a extra zealot and get a much easier defense against all the common attacks. A good build for 2 player maps: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-162571.jpg) | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On November 04 2010 02:34 Markwerf wrote: The thor pushes are imo no problem at all if you just get some immortals with your robo. Mass repair is pretty strong but by using probes yourself or just falling back a bit they can be handled pretty well. Against any rush that is not MMM it is actually pretty good to have immortals and a early robo. Against a tank push immortals are obviously fantastic. Against a raven/marine/banshee push immortals are fairly good as well. This seems counterintuitive but they don't trigger PDD and they last longer against banshee's then stalkers. I always get phoenixes to actually kill the PDD and phoenix so immortals to kill their marines/hellions/whatever are actually pretty good. Against a thor push immortals are great as well. So to put it short immortals and thus the robo is great against any non-MMM push imo so getting it asap against those is sweet. Generally I just scout their barracks and if they went with a quick tech lab I go 3 gateways then a robo. If i scout something else I go robo then a 2nd gate. Either way you're always set to defend well. As for getting the nexus earlier... Imo it's horrible. The supposedly better economy you have is only worse because you are cutting probes to do so. Cutting zealots etc to get the nexus earlier is ok but requires extremely good intel about what the terran is up too. I suggest to just stick to the original build as it is overall just the most efficient. As for late or not scouting I think it's definately the best way to go now. By not scouting you can just afford a extra zealot and get a much easier defense against all the common attacks. A good build for 2 player maps: Immortals vs. marine/banshee/raven? If you somehow have made this work, can you post replays? Immortals can't do anything about banshees and marines strip the hardened shield in no time flat. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
also, does anyone have a solid bo for the 2 gate robo expand? i believe the order goes gate robo gate nexus support bay. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
I will still stick with 1 gate FE though because 1 thor pushes aren't common (yet). | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:34 whoopadeedoo wrote: FWIW, I lost again to 1 thor marine. I think this is an effective counter to 1 gate FE (the only solid counter I know) because the timing works very well for Terran. If thors couldn't destroy FF or if scvs weren't so crazy good at repairing, I think this timing push is manageable. Or if there was a way to scout this coming earlier (I'm open to any suggestions), I could switch up to faster robo. Maybe 1 gate robo FE can work. I will still stick with 1 gate FE though because 1 thor pushes aren't common (yet). I had this problem as well, you cannot get a immortal out fast enough on some maps. I have actually moved to 2 gate robo, which completely destroysssssss that build >_> . | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 04 2010 04:54 da_head wrote: im having a lot of trouble with a very fast 3 rax mostly marauder push. he would start his third rax by 22. i would go for a quick 2 gate and robo, and i would have a few zlots stalkers and a immortal when the push would come. however, cuz of stim he would roll me hard. second game, i sacced my expo not losing any probes or units and instead he expanded himself, and when i tried to rexpand he attacked me again and rolled me hard. any thoughts? should i be gettin 3 gates and a robo quick? i usually go 30 nexus 32 robo 33 pylon 34 gate and when the gate finishes, i throw down 2 more gates. depending on what i scout, i would either gate a obs or immortal first. however, gettin an obs first in close spawn positions is auto lose vs an early push. but if he randomly decides to go banshee with cloak, u can take a lot of damage from the delayed obs. T_T also, does anyone have a solid bo for the 2 gate robo expand? i believe the order goes gate robo gate nexus support bay. I 3 gate Robo expand everytime I do this build and 60% of the time I get rolled by a mostly marauder + stim 3 rax. But that usually happens if I fail my sentry force fields. What I do is 27-30 Nexus (depending if on whether I skipped a zealot or not), 30 Gateway 30 Gateway, then produce out of them non-stop (cutting probe) until warpgates. Just make sure you have a decent amount of sentries, I start building my sentries before my stalkers now, you really need that energy pooled up. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Ive been working on a variation of this fast expand build that is really showing some promise. The idea just kind of occurred to me yesterday and i spent a little time on YABOT messing with the timings. Basically, you FE and chrono the gateway etc, but instead of dropping the extra gates right away. I drop a forge then 2 gates and go for a fast +1 armor. Its incredibly how much the +1 armor helps against marine/mara DPS... it really gives your zealots a TON of mileage... the marines are the biggest dps threat in every type of push, banshees attack twice, it makes maras hit zeals for like 6 with guardian shield, and thors hit a little weaker. Ive gotten it down to a point where I can get the +1 to finish around the 8 minute mark (which is roughly when 50 food push shows up on a long rush distance), but I think I can get that number down. This includes one cannon at my natural and one cannon in my main as well. I see the cannon at natural as another gateway unit, which helps justify the forge in defending a push and its also protection vs. cloaked banshee. Adding one in the main may not be necessary if you can determine hes not going cloak, but to be honest 1 cannon goes a long way against hellions as well. When the expansion gets going a bit I went up to 5 gates and dropped the TC. Basically I was just sitting there thinking about it and tired of reading that dumb general forums thread about protoss being underpowered... i know a month ago some korean players that were messing with fast expand would just go straight to templar tech, which is a very risky timing window. Since the timing window is so dangerous they transition from collossus into templar... well what if you could get that sick +1 armor to keep you safe until charge and then templars? Chargelots are fine against thors if you can manage to take care of the SCVs and stalkers dont do terrible. TBH its the combination of both units that can deal with thors and once you have storm out you're totally fine. The one timing im worried about is that 1 thor push with SCVs cheese. Maybe some of the higher rated guys on here can mull it over and work on perfecting the timings, but that armor is huge and I think its pretty close. You'll definitely have the unit count to easily hold a 50 food stim push and with the + armor with guardian shield up, no micro from either side its really one sided. I try to have 2 sentries and any combination of 10 zeal/stalkers by the time of that push. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
None of the mid-game allin pushes in response to this build have ever worked on me so far. Mid-game pushes with tanks before I have lots of immortals or charge seems to be the best of the mid-game pushes designed to shut down protoss before his economy becomes to big. What does seem to do quite well against this build is aggressive multiple banshee harass while the terran macros up and takes a 3rd base. Lots of banshees is kind of difficult to deal with; I'm reluctant to build a lot of stalkers because I need to focus on zealots in case he moves out with a lot of marauders. Still, from my experience, this build feels infinitely superior to 1 base robo builds. I'm surprised the pros haven't caught on and started using this build more, seems like most of them are still going 1 base robo. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
On November 11 2010 14:06 kcdc wrote: Thanks to the roach buff, I almost never lose to Terran anymore. A 2k Terran isn't a challenge, but a 2k Zerg is impossible.... Anyone else having the same experience? Yep, pretty much the same here. Haven't had a very hard time with terrans since the ratings leveled out after that patch. | ||
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SaJa
France84 Posts
SaJa vs Mascot I'm still fucked up against big push on step. 7min the Terran comes with many m&m stim. I just have warp up like 3 sec after this, and it seems that they is no way to defend it from a good player :/ (I sent you my replays by mp, kdcd, to know what are my mistakes, but u seem not answering me :p) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163909.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163910.jpg) | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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SaJa
France84 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Have there been any big updates to the OP recently? I feel that with aggro Marine armies being the hip thing as well as Tech Starport dependent builds on the rise, dealing with earlier pressure and more and more quick Banshees/Ravens, you might have words of wisdom regarding how to 1 Gate FE. Cheers. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 13 2010 13:11 Sleight wrote: Dear KCDC, Have there been any big updates to the OP recently? I feel that with aggro Marine armies being the hip thing as well as Tech Starport dependent builds on the rise, dealing with earlier pressure and more and more quick Banshees/Ravens, you might have words of wisdom regarding how to 1 Gate FE. Cheers. I don't think I'll update the OP again as 1-gate FE is so mainstream at this point that my opinion is no more useful than the next upper diamond Protoss. Marines are really strong. You need a lot of zealots, a few stalkers and guardian shield. 2-base banshee/raven is easy to hold. 1-base banshee/raven is an all-in, and can be defended pretty well by skipping tech, cutting probes and getting a TON of gateway units. Just scout their nat around the time that your robo finishes. If they haven't taken it, they're probably going for a late all-in. Get 2-3 sentries, some extra gates and send your observer over. Cut probes and just pump as many units as you can. There's no need to keep making workers or tech--if you hold, you win easy. | ||
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