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On November 19 2010 04:55 Legion710 wrote:
I pretty much go one gate then expand around 30 and throw a second gate and I just get as many units as I can the whole time, but he always has the bigger army, so I can't really defend my expansion. He comes right before my immortal comes out as well and I get it before obs.
And sentry is pretty crucial... I'm gonna disregard that comment.
If you're struggling to hold early barracks pressure, I'd recommend dropping the sentry. Getting an sentry to start accumulating energy is an option if you don't expect an early rush, but if he comes with his first 5 marauders, the sentry will be useless. Unless the map is Jungle Basin, what are you going to do with a single forcefield?
As for holding a 3-rax, there are a lot of little tricks. Poking with your first zealot and stalker can help a lot. Get the timing down perfectly so that you're double chronoing your stalker and rallying it across the map immediately. You'll almost always get there before conc shell finishes, and you'll usually get a favorable unit trade. An even trade is also to your advantage since you'll be reinforcing faster when he pushes.
If you're concerned about 3-rax, cut workers at 30 (but keep producing zealot/stalker) to start your second and third gates ASAP. This timing will give you 3 warpgates just when a 3-rax push hits your base. Let him shoot at your nexus at your nat until you've warped in your units. Then grab a handful of probes and clear out the attack. Bunkers at your nat won't finish in time to factor into the fight unless you let him start building them before his army arrived.
The big points are getting your gates on time and letting your nexus tank fire till you're ready to fight. It has 2,000 hit points. It can take shots from 5 unstimmed marauders for a long time.
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It's a 3 rax build push while expanding, sorry I didn't clarify that.
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Thanks for your advice everyone, I'm sure it will greatly help.
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On November 19 2010 05:19 Legion710 wrote:
It's a 3 rax build push while expanding, sorry I didn't clarify that.
Sounds like a wasteful build. If he's really expanding while pushing at completion of stim, he should probably cut it to 2 rax.
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Don't disregard the comment about the sentry, at this stage in the game when you're expanding off of only 1 gateway the decision to get a sentry or not is huge, and so whether it's a good idea to get a sentry could be the difference between life or death. So why do you get one sentry? Your units are on the low ground and so there's no use from forcefielding. Since a sentry's DPS is rather low, guardian shield with this few units needs to make up for the opportunity cost of the sentry, which is either a zealot (tank) or stalker (DPS). Guardian shield gets better as more and more units are added, but in low numbers where the sentry is easily sniped, it will have to somehow die slow enough so that the time spent focus firing on the sentry makes up for the amount of time a zealot would have been able to tank damage.
Also your explanation of the build isn't specific enough, you can have more or less units depending on what you cut to get the nex (if anything), when you cut to get gates (if anything), and what you spend your chronooboost on.
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I will take a more serious look at the replays and come back with more details, but I can tell you that most of the time I spend most of my chronos on probes and one or two on warpgate research. I'm really starting to think that I'm not getting my additional gates fast enough. I'll take a closer look. I was just looking for general feedback for my rather generally explained problem, for which I did not expect such a short and good response.
Thanks.
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On November 19 2010 05:19 kcdc wrote:
If you're concerned about 3-rax, cut workers at 30 (but keep producing zealot/stalker) to start your second and third gates ASAP. This timing will give you 3 warpgates just when a 3-rax push hits your base.
I do this pretty much every single time unless I've scouted an FE from T. The potential benefits just outweight the costs. The FE puts you so far ahead in economy by mid game that cutting a few probes at this point is a drop in the bucket. On the other hand, getting your 2nd/3rd gateways up 30s-1min later to not take the small hit very well can make or break your chances of fending off early aggression.
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Well I can tell you that when I 1 gate FE, I only CB my probes twice at the start, and then I save all my CB's for my first zealot and my stalker production. Might not be the best way to do it, but I want to make the most out of my single gateway so that I can be sure to stay alive. As long as you start adding the gateways 10-15 game seconds after you make the nexus, they should finish around the same time the nexus does. Then you can use the nexus's food boost to pump a round of units, plus probes, saving you money on a pylon in favor of constant unit production during nex construction or in favor of an entire round of units from all gateways once they're ready (whichever way you wanna look at it).
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How does this build hold up against a terran who does a 2rax/2factory siege tank all-in off of 1 base?
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On November 19 2010 04:40 Legion710 wrote:
Seems I can't create a new topic yet, so I'll post here.
I am a 2000 diamond Brotoss and I just hit a huge wall (at least versus my 2400 practice partner). It seems I can not handle a simple mm push when my FE is almost done (if I don't FE I simply lose because he does, and it's a strategy that is supposed to work and that I'm supposed to pin down anyways).
I simply cannot figure how I can survive his first stim conc shell push with around 5 marauders and 2 marines... By that time I will have a sentry, one or two zealot and two or three stalkers, which is basically a joke vs conc shell and stim...
Now I go and watch some pro replays but I never see this situation exactly and I really don't know why, because this just seems so imba to me. I either see the terran try to push with only marines and 1 marauder, which obviously fails, or him simply not attacking at all. I don't understand why pros would be less agressive, because that push is hell. I have lost about 25 games in a row against this and I'm about to throw my monitor out of the window.
I'd provide some replays but I'm at work.
Your problem look like same as me. I sent those replays to have some help but no one is answering me as usual ^^ (maybe my english is too bad :p)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163909.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163910.jpg)
I know I made some little mistakes (too many chrono on my nexus for example) but even without those, I guess it won't make any differences.. this Terran Bo is unstopable from my friend's point of view (jim) if I make this protoss build order in close position.
Now I go and watch some pro replays but I never see this situation exactly and I really don't know why,
Agree, I haven't seen this push on any kcdc or minigun's replays (and I think I've probably seen all of them even beside this thread ^^). Most of time, Terran rush you without stim, or with stim but too late (when you have your 4 gates ready, here FOXJim is rushing me just before warp get up).
This 3rax push is coming at a perfect timing and I'm wonder if I should chrono my warp upgrad :/
Btw kcdc, you saying that we should stay on the high ground waiting to get something to deal with the Terran still focusing our b2, but as you can see in one of the replay, when I finally got something to deal with and go to save my nexus, he just stim to hit and run my b2 to finally destroy it ~~ after this, I'm a pretty in a bad position I guess Y_Y
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Yeah I've watch my replay, and I can see lot of mistakes actually (it was long time ago ^^)
In one of them I put my 4th gate way too late and I made FF in front of the m&m army instead of splitting them.
In the other one I make too much zealots and my pylone forward my expo (instead of the back).
How many zealots I need against this m&m composition stimed at 7min ? 2 and 3 stalkers ?
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I've had faith in this build for so long now, I can't believe a stupid thor push is rendering it completely useless.  Any ideas? I've lost to a generic thor/scv/marine allin 3 times in the past few days now.
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On November 20 2010 14:04 Shron wrote:I've had faith in this build for so long now, I can't believe a stupid thor push is rendering it completely useless. Any ideas? I've lost to a generic thor/scv/marine allin 3 times in the past few days now.
Unfortunately I'm having the same problem as you, I also find it's the most frustrating way to lose this MU. Generally what happens is I'll comfortably have enough "stuff" out to kill most if not all the marines and a handful of SCVs but be left with a pissed off thor and yet more SCVs.
I find it really difficult to:
A) See the SCVs to focus them down, because the thor model hides them quite well.
B) Use Zealots to focus down the thor or kill SCVs because most of them run round endlessly never getting a hit in.
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sorry if this already came up in the last 52 pages but what do you do against a 1-1-1 push with bashee/tank/rines and sometimes a raven? I just don't know how to respond to this push.
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On November 20 2010 14:04 Shron wrote:I've had faith in this build for so long now, I can't believe a stupid thor push is rendering it completely useless. Any ideas? I've lost to a generic thor/scv/marine allin 3 times in the past few days now.
I recently switched from probe cut at 30 + 2 more gates into a very fast robo when my scouting probe AND my scouting stalker afterwards (!) report ramp-block + marines only - I literally "never" got pushed hard/fast enough to die after I've thrown down a quick robo (and 2 more gates after I got the ressources).
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On November 20 2010 14:04 Shron wrote:I've had faith in this build for so long now, I can't believe a stupid thor push is rendering it completely useless. Any ideas? I've lost to a generic thor/scv/marine allin 3 times in the past few days now.
That's a strong push, but it requires pulling ~half of T's scvs. Interestingly, the push hits when P has a much larger army, but due to the AI making your zealots bug out when they can't hit the thor, T's composition is just ridiculously efficient. One option is to sac your expo and wait for a second/third immortal. You should be able to hold your ramp, and if you pull your probes into your main, you'll be ahead even having lost your nexus at your nat. Just don't build too many pylons down there until you know you're safe against SCV all-ins. Once you have a few immortals, re-expand and go kill him.
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Can anyone point me to a replay of how to hold off the marine/banshee/raven push that a lot of terrans are using these days. Generally the terran will push with ~3-4 banshees, 20 marines, and a raven and it will hit before you have collosi or templar but well after your expansion is up and running. If you are stalker heavy the PDD owns you, if you are zealot heavy the banshees own you, and marines are just so cost effective before collosi or templar are on the field.
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On November 21 2010 15:38 tarath wrote:
Can anyone point me to a replay of how to hold off the marine/banshee/raven push that a lot of terrans are using these days. Generally the terran will push with ~3-4 banshees, 20 marines, and a raven and it will hit before you have collosi or templar but well after your expansion is up and running. If you are stalker heavy the PDD owns you, if you are zealot heavy the banshees own you, and marines are just so cost effective before collosi or templar are on the field.
Generally vs that kind of build after I scout the raven with my observer (normally the first thing they build so they can get energy) and I see that they continue producing out of the starport, I get a stargate and make some phoenix. Only two or three should be good to hold off a raven and a few banshees.
Still, you can't let them pdd right on your natural. Your stalkers are necessary in that fight. If their plan banks on pdd, force them to use it somewhere of no strategic value. For example, as soon as you see their army start to cross the map, engage them and force them to use it, and then back off. Once the energy for their pdd is gone, their banshees and raven's utility are reduced immensely.
EDIT: It's a lot like how with a pre-medivac bio army, you should force a stim and then forcefield or blink away sometimes.
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On November 21 2010 15:38 tarath wrote:
Can anyone point me to a replay of how to hold off the marine/banshee/raven push that a lot of terrans are using these days. Generally the terran will push with ~3-4 banshees, 20 marines, and a raven and it will hit before you have collosi or templar but well after your expansion is up and running. If you are stalker heavy the PDD owns you, if you are zealot heavy the banshees own you, and marines are just so cost effective before collosi or templar are on the field.
If you throw down a robo with the first 100 gas after you expand, get a quick observer, you can scout this pretty well. When you do see a Starport with a tech lab, you need to throw down a stargate and get a couple phoenixes out. Make your ground army zealot heavy to mop up rines, target PDD immediately, and you're good.
This build is really hard to stop, so it all comes down to experience/micro. It just adds to the list of 1 base builds that a Terran can do to screw with a Protoss. *sigh*
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The 4 times i ran into the Thorr Marine all in i held it off with this build :O, first two times i had 4 or 5 gates up when he pushed (on steppes too) and i held it off pretty easy, the third time was with 3 gate robo and i held off with 1 immortal till he backed off for a few seconds then my second was out and it was pretty easy. Maybe the players i ran into didn't have that build down good enough or had bad timing.
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EPT
