EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 53
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
hifriend
China7935 Posts
| ||
|
Feos
Germany71 Posts
why should i get a 1 gate fe instead of a 1 gate robo fe? or even 2 gate robo fe (if thats still a fast expand^^)? i mean is the pay off really that good if you lay down your nexus a little bit earlier? and an early robo is useful against any opening the terran can do, isnt it? | ||
|
MuffinFTW
United States235 Posts
On November 22 2010 00:15 hifriend wrote: lol my fe just got shut down so hard by thor/mm/scv rush I actually started laughing. Same, I just can't deal with that with a FE. ]: | ||
|
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On November 22 2010 02:39 Feos wrote: i have a question about this build: why should i get a 1 gate fe instead of a 1 gate robo fe? or even 2 gate robo fe (if thats still a fast expand^^)? i mean is the pay off really that good if you lay down your nexus a little bit earlier? and an early robo is useful against any opening the terran can do, isnt it? Robo FE delays your expansion by 200 minerals, and the mining of 100 gas. Assuming you're going straight into an observer to know exactly what the terran has or is trying to hace, that's another 100 gas. Now, we're talking about investing in the expansion when terran has nothing to heavily threaten the forces you have chrono'd out of one gate + a few pulled probes. The longer you delay that expo with a minimum of forces the more chance terran has to muster something to punish the minerals invested before the douvle-base income boosts your army strength. As for the usefulness that the robo provides--of course it is useful! Many onebasers enjoy having an early immortal against robo pushes before they expand, or that observer, or both chrono'd. Reread the guide and you'll see that robo soon after the expo (4gate then robo or 3gate then robo) because of that usefulness. The gain with not dropping immediately after cybercore? You poke with your zealot+stalker and what he uses to push you back tells volumes. Marauders let you know how he's spent his gas. What addon the walloff has or how many marines he's made, etc etc. The poke tells you what possible pushes are coming, for example if fast banshees are a possibility and you need to build a robo soon after the expo. So, with your comment on the 2gate robo into expand, that is the choice you as the gamer can make. Do you want the expo super early with the bare minimum to defend it initially (you won't have tons of units to spare on a bio push) or do you want a substantial army to back it? This topic shows you one way to do the first of these. Watch the replays for the proof. | ||
|
hifriend
China7935 Posts
On November 22 2010 03:15 MuffinFTW wrote: Same, I just can't deal with that with a FE. ]: So what do people do against this? I guess the only real solution would be to pull back probes/army into your main, sac the nex and stall with ff until you have some immortals? But by that time he should be way, waaay ahead.  | ||
|
shingbi
58 Posts
On November 22 2010 02:39 Feos wrote: i have a question about this build: why should i get a 1 gate fe instead of a 1 gate robo fe? or even 2 gate robo fe (if thats still a fast expand^^)? i mean is the pay off really that good if you lay down your nexus a little bit earlier? and an early robo is useful against any opening the terran can do, isnt it? It's not just that you profit from the expansion earlier, it's also the fact that it lines up with the time when gateway units are still doing well against MM (before they reach critical mass/get meds). If you expand earlier (like do a 15 Nexus), you will probably die to a bunker rush (not that I've tried it), if you expand later then your expansion will not have paid off at the time strong timing pushes come. | ||
|
SaJa
France84 Posts
Just leave your b2 dying waiting for ur 3rd immortal as said kcdc you will be still ahead if you save your probes from the push : ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-167637.jpg) The hardest to deal imo is the 3rax push but with some practice and a good game sens you may do it properly.  | ||
|
Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
| ||
|
s4m222
United States272 Posts
so after getting destroyed by thor rushes for maybe 5 games or so I went to test with a friend. What i've found is that voidrays are a much better answer to thors than immortals. They're just as expensive, but are more efficient against thors and can't get signal fired. Combined with a heavy zealot ground force and a couple sentries for guardian shield, I feel confident in facing thor rushes now. But since this is "lab" testing, I think i'll go on ladder a bit to see if i can get some replays But most protoss dont blindly get a stargate vs Terran. You wouldnt get a void ray out in time if you waited for observer / scout/ stargate / void. If you got a stargate instead of robo you might get a void out in time. When you do 1 gate FE, the thor rush comes just a bit after your nexus is done and you have 3-4 warpgates up and robo done or near done. There is no time for a void unless your somehow know 100% its a thor build and you are able to skip the robo and get a stargate instead. (also i dont see how you would have 3 immortals out after an FE when the thor 'rush' comes. You might have 1 finished and 1 on the way if you were very clean with the FE and got a timely robo. Unless their thor push was extremely late in which case you would be able to stop it with nearly anything since you should be ahead in army count) Thor rushes would be easier than sh*t to defend against if AI vs repairing scvs/thors was not so retarded and it wasnt so hard to target the scvs. | ||
|
Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On November 22 2010 17:49 s4m222 wrote: But most protoss dont blindly get a stargate vs Terran. You wouldnt get a void ray out in time if you waited for observer / scout/ stargate / void. If you got a stargate instead of robo you might get a void out in time. When you do 1 gate FE, the thor rush comes just a bit after your nexus is done and you have 3-4 warpgates up and robo done or near done. There is no time for a void unless your somehow know 100% its a thor build and you are able to skip the robo and get a stargate instead. (also i dont see how you would have 3 immortals out after an FE when the thor 'rush' comes. You might have 1 finished and 1 on the way if you were very clean with the FE and got a timely robo. Unless their thor push was extremely late in which case you would be able to stop it with nearly anything since you should be ahead in army count) Thor rushes would be easier than sh*t to defend against if AI vs repairing scvs/thors was not so retarded and it wasnt so hard to target the scvs. If I see a heavy amount of marines, I follow the guide and get robo next. I go 3 gate and a robo after the expand and get an obs if i see a lot of marines as usual. My next building is a stargate to get phoenixes against banshees or voids against any type of mech. A few times I've had to sac the natural because of the map distance and such but you can push back with the voids and thor rushes are pretty all-in so I tend to be able to expand again or just win outright. | ||
|
SaJa
France84 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107963-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war SoW http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107965-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis metalo close position I need a replay to show me, and against the exactly same build order (build that I can't see on any replays) which means, push m&m on 3 rax with stim at 8min (expanding is pretty useless at this point). Thx a lot !!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! | ||
|
RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On November 22 2010 17:49 s4m222 wrote: But most protoss dont blindly get a stargate vs Terran. You wouldnt get a void ray out in time if you waited for observer / scout/ stargate / void. If you got a stargate instead of robo you might get a void out in time. When you do 1 gate FE, the thor rush comes just a bit after your nexus is done and you have 3-4 warpgates up and robo done or near done. There is no time for a void unless your somehow know 100% its a thor build and you are able to skip the robo and get a stargate instead. (also i dont see how you would have 3 immortals out after an FE when the thor 'rush' comes. You might have 1 finished and 1 on the way if you were very clean with the FE and got a timely robo. Unless their thor push was extremely late in which case you would be able to stop it with nearly anything since you should be ahead in army count) Thor rushes would be easier than sh*t to defend against if AI vs repairing scvs/thors was not so retarded and it wasnt so hard to target the scvs. Voidrays are better than immortals, even more so because they can't get 250mm'd. But I agree it's risky to just go stargate unless you somehow konw it's a thor rush coming. And no way in hell you will have 3 immortals out vs 2 thors unless you build the robo ASAP and maybe even skipped an observer. Basically if you did that you'd die every time to a Polt Timing or 3 brx stim push. | ||
|
RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
| ||
|
s4m222
United States272 Posts
It just seems to be having troubles against a thor rush because of repairing SCVs / zealot AI. | ||
|
turbopasca1
Moldova41 Posts
i saw your replays , and u did execute this 1 gate fe into 4 gate really well , but the push is so hard to handle , more than that - terran can make this push even more brutal by bringing scvs with him, or even proxying those additional 2 baracks near your exp . I really Loved that 1 gate FE strategy , but this strat just STOMPS it so much , we need comunity advice / help to resolve this. Edit : an idea just came in my mind , maybe trick him like you are going to tech , by building an early 2nd gas but not using it , and keep an eye on his scv , so it wont spot you expo . Or maybe get an early sentry after 1 zeal 2-3 stalker , and block his own ramp when he decides to move out/ and wapr more sentrys at proxy pilon (u will need a lot of gas for it tho) so it can buy u time (this way he will not be able to leave his base without medivacs) | ||
|
Feos
Germany71 Posts
i just started practicing the 1gfe build. it worked so far so well. but against my friend i seem to get roflstomped all the time :/ here is one example of many games: http://www.sacki.org/feos/files/PvT3Raxvs1GFE.SC2Replay he goes straight to 3 rax (2x techlab 1x reactor) and pushed hard. in the replay i can see that i should have made a 4th gate instead of the robo. but right at the moment when i had to decide wheather robo or gate, i poked up the ramp with a stalker and a zealot. only marines! no bunker and no buildings could be seen. so i leave and build a robo in case of cloaked banshees. of course after watching the replay i thought it was bad luck, that i was just a few seconds too early or i would have seen the marauders :/ now a few questions: first of all: 1. did i execute the build correctly? 2. is there any way to determin the terrans intentions? most important: is there any way how i can eliminate the possibility of cloaked banshees? (gas steal maybe?) 3. while in small numbers of MM a high zealot count combinded with a few stalkers just crush them. so i should focus on getting many zealots and a few stalkers. but when to start spamming sentries? lets assume i would have built the 4th gate instead of the robo in this game: would i have been able to fend that push off by only making zealots and stalkers (about 2:1)? or are sentries essential to hold that type of push? 4. if i anticipate such a push (3Rax MM + Stim + shield + con shells) how should i proceed? put down the 4th gate... then what? cut probes and chronoboost warpgates untill it is fended off? or would it simply be enough to produce continously from 4 gates? sorry for that many questions... i know i might answer some of them by myself by just playing and trying some more... but i have no one who is good enough to pull that off that cleanly like he did... | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 23 2010 02:46 SaJa wrote: I really would like some advise... It seems absolutely impossible to stop this push : http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107963-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war SoW http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107965-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis metalo close position I need a replay to show me, and against the exactly same build order (build that I can't see on any replays) which means, push m&m on 3 rax with stim at 8min (expanding is pretty useless at this point). Thx a lot !!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Ok, I watched those two replays. That's a very common Terran build, and the first one I tested against. You can defend it. You made a lot of small errors in those two replays that made them look like lopsided losses when in fact they were very close. First, go 13-gate and don't pylon scout. Supply before barracks and longer zealot build time has made 13-gate flat out better than pylon scouting and 14-gate. You'll have your gates and your warpgate research a few seconds earlier this way, and your economy will actually be slightly better. Second, poke with your first zealot and stalker. Unless he went tech lab before any marines, there's no reason not to. You'll usually get few free kill or two. Third, in SoW, you expanded at 32 and then supply blocked yourself at 33. You also left your warpgates idle and didn't warp in before engaging. On Metal, you were a little late with your core, but you did a better job constantly producing out of your first gateway, but you built your pylon at 30/34 before your additional gates. Let it get to 32/34 or 34/34 before you start the pylon. This lets you get your gates earlier. Finally, the biggest issue was how you engaged. You need to engage on your terms. This means (1) staying on your high ground until you've warped in your units, (2) organizing your units before attacking, and (3) charging in with your units and enough probes to win AT THE SAME TIME. In both replays, you engaged before warping in, you attacked separately with your zealots and stalkers, and you waited until your army was dead to pull probes. You also did a poor job reinforcing, leaving your warpgates idle until the outcome was already decided. Just keep practicing. Even with your small mistakes, in both replays, you had enough units to defend at the start of the engagements. You just need to pull probes earlier and coordinate your forces better. | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 23 2010 07:28 Feos wrote: i have the same problem. i just started practicing the 1gfe build. it worked so far so well. but against my friend i seem to get roflstomped all the time :/ here is one example of many games: http://www.sacki.org/feos/files/PvT3Raxvs1GFE.SC2Replay he goes straight to 3 rax (2x techlab 1x reactor) and pushed hard. in the replay i can see that i should have made a 4th gate instead of the robo. but right at the moment when i had to decide wheather robo or gate, i poked up the ramp with a stalker and a zealot. only marines! no bunker and no buildings could be seen. so i leave and build a robo in case of cloaked banshees. of course after watching the replay i thought it was bad luck, that i was just a few seconds too early or i would have seen the marauders :/ now a few questions: first of all: 1. did i execute the build correctly? 2. is there any way to determin the terrans intentions? most important: is there any way how i can eliminate the possibility of cloaked banshees? (gas steal maybe?) 3. while in small numbers of MM a high zealot count combinded with a few stalkers just crush them. so i should focus on getting many zealots and a few stalkers. but when to start spamming sentries? lets assume i would have built the 4th gate instead of the robo in this game: would i have been able to fend that push off by only making zealots and stalkers (about 2:1)? or are sentries essential to hold that type of push? 4. if i anticipate such a push (3Rax MM + Stim + shield + con shells) how should i proceed? put down the 4th gate... then what? cut probes and chronoboost warpgates untill it is fended off? or would it simply be enough to produce continously from 4 gates? sorry for that many questions... i know i might answer some of them by myself by just playing and trying some more... but i have no one who is good enough to pull that off that cleanly like he did... You don't need a 4th gate to defend 3-rax. Just use all your chrono on warpgates and cut as many probes as you need to in order to keep constant production from your warpgates. Don't gas steal. It won't rule out cloak anyway. If you see at least 2 barracks or enough bio that you know there are at least 2 barracks, he's not going cloaked banshees. If he's doing a suboptimal cloaked banshee rush, you have more time to get your obs. | ||
|
Fenrisulf
United States325 Posts
what sort of unit composition should I keep until the observer makes it and how do I respond to each build after I see? Doesn't seem like I can stop the thor push unless I make immortals early but that puts me in a ditch if the opponent goes banshees instead.... | ||
|
SaJa
France84 Posts
thx a lot  | ||
| ||
