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On October 10 2010 09:45 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem with medivacs in midgame where you're 2 base vs 1/2 base mmm is when you get dropped you need a disproportionate amount of your army to deal with it.
T commits 4 marauders and a medivac. You have to commit 4 zealots an immortal and 2 stalkers to deal with it or something like that. From there your army defending your natural is weaker and if T attacks you're weaker than he is comparatively than if you had your full armies.
Drops are problematic in general because protoss has to commit too much to stop them thanks to dropships healing a ridiculous amount and small protoss forces being generally ineffective.
Once you get chargelots drops are a lot less problematic because zealots can't be kited around nearly as easily.
2 Zealots and 1 Colossus = 4 Marauders + Medivac and is not bad for dealing with them.
Generally though I like getting some Stargate action eventually to defend drops.
On October 09 2010 08:23 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:21 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:15 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in you main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway. Why are you only picking statements out of what I say and not responding to the many ways you can prevent them in the first place. You have invisible observers, they are somewhat cheap for the information they provide you with. You can see this stuff coming and react before they even make it to your base. Because observers, pylons and phoenix don't prevent drops. Then you don't use the information you receive correctly...
Knowing is only HALF the battle.
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On October 09 2010 08:23 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 08:21 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:15 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 08:13 Proximo wrote:On October 09 2010 08:04 Minigun wrote:
I think you are making out the drops to be harder than they really are. Yes they are annoying, but there are several ways to prepare for them. I'd say having your Nexus blown to oblivion by dropped Marauders before you can do anything to prevent it more then annoying...... The only solution is leaving forces camped in your base, which means less troops in you main force, and still often times doesn't prevent you from losing your Nexus anyway. Why are you only picking statements out of what I say and not responding to the many ways you can prevent them in the first place. You have invisible observers, they are somewhat cheap for the information they provide you with. You can see this stuff coming and react before they even make it to your base. Because observers, pylons and phoenix don't prevent drops. Then you don't use the information you receive correctly...
You're making it seems as if it's simple to stop drops with this 'information' when in fact it's not.
Yeah observers, phoenix and pylon's can help but not always. I'm not a pro and if I have more then one base, am making a push, fighting skirmishes, doing something else, etc, it's often nearly impossible to instantly react to a drop unless I have an observer out and know it's coming in advance.
Even then , a good terran will feign a frontal attack and drop in behind, or feign a drop then push somewhere else, etc, etc,. just so many ways it can hurt you. Hell, even watching high level diamond replays I've seen some really good players get decimated by well times drops.
Anyway, your advice is good way to start and help deal with them, but you're just coming off as "drops are nothing, just get etc, etc," when in fact it's just not true in many cases.
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C'mon guys. Enough arguing about drops. If you know they're coming or are in position, they're easy to stop. If you're pushing out, caught out of position, or distracted, they're difficult to stop. It's the same with any opening. Sitting on one base through the mid-game isn't an option. You're going to have to multitask and defend multiple positions.
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On October 11 2010 07:17 kcdc wrote:
C'mon guys. Enough arguing about drops. If you know they're coming or are in position, they're easy to stop. If you're pushing out, caught out of position, or distracted, they're difficult to stop. It's the same with any opening. Sitting on one base through the mid-game isn't an option. You're going to have to multitask and defend multiple positions.
Hey drops are good, but they're much more manageable than people make them out to be. If you can deflect drop play it can put you way ahead. That's all that really needs to be said. I think we've covered the topic to death =P
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I really enjoy catching an enemy drop when I've got 1-2 HTs and 1-2 or so zealots/stalkers sitting at each expansion.
Ah, the lovely animation of a medivac blown out of the sky with feedback, or an almost dead medivac getting killed by a stalker shot just warms my heart every time it happens.
Of course, when I fail and get dropped anyways, it's a pain to deal with (which is why i always keep 3-4 gates ready to warp in at any time in case such a thing happens)
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I tried this a few times, holy shit it works! PVT just got awesome haha. Hellion strats kinda gave me trouble but I was not expecting this to hold vs 3 rax as well as it did. Thanks for the writeup.
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Hey drops are good, but they're much more manageable than people make them out to be. If you can deflect drop play it can put you way ahead. That's all that really needs to be said. I think we've covered the topic to death =P
maybe stopping the hellion drop without any loss puts you ahead... but because of terrans inherent need of medivacs either way, even if you stop the drops COLD, terran just brushes it off. If medivacs didnt heal, then yes it would put you ahead since they invested into a drop that didnt work. FOr terran drops are just icing on the cake.
Best prevention is offense, if you keep the terran on their toes worried about templar drops, zealot drops in min line, warp ins, they usually don thave the spare attention to try to drop. (this is midlate/late game) Late game as drop prevention i have a canon or 2 depending on my econ, and have 1-2 high templars. They can feedback and storm, in conjunction with the canons can delay long enough for me to warp in a few units. As for large doom drops 3+ dropships you need be more vigilant.
As for the build, as long as terran isnt doing some allin / early pressure build, this FE works great as there is only a small window for terran to really scare the toss before the 2 base econ kicks in.
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I don't know. Minerals for terran is the limiting resource (always too much gas ... vice versa for zerg ... about balanced for toss). Killing 4 hellions that did no damage is a pretty big deal IMO.
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I find that this is very, very vulnerable to any kind of 3rax push. I don't claim that you can't defend against it, but you will take some damage, and cutting probes eats into the advantage of FE. Between that, fear of drops, and getting contained and such, I think this build is only really usable if you think terran won't try anything funny early on. Against a FE terran this would own.
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This build works so well on the new two maps in the Ladder pool because its very easy to defend the FE. Here is a little game vs a 1200+ Terran where I would not let him expand. I am really surprised he did not try to kill that pylon, that little spot makes this map pretty great for toss i think. Ive been having great success on it. Enjoy <3
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157305.jpg)
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Yes yes yes I love this build I love the maps I love PvT :D
I dont open any other way against terran and I cant remember the last time I lost vs T
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Holy crap!
This is my new favourite build. I am in silver, and i beat a low diamond player with this nuild
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On October 14 2010 01:22 AlexXx wrote:This build works so well on the new two maps in the Ladder pool because its very easy to defend the FE. Here is a little game vs a 1200+ Terran where I would not let him expand. I am really surprised he did not try to kill that pylon, that little spot makes this map pretty great for toss i think. Ive been having great success on it. Enjoy <3
The only catch is that you have a somewhat hard time scouting telling the difference between a 3 rax and a 1 rax expand. You can however, put a pylon outside his natrual on jungle basin and warp in a zealot or 2 to check.
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On October 13 2010 13:40 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I don't know. Minerals for terran is the limiting resource (always too much gas ... vice versa for zerg ... about balanced for toss). Killing 4 hellions that did no damage is a pretty big deal IMO.
Minerals are the limiting resource for Terran? Maybe if you're going mass marine rush every game o_O
When you're going mech you'll be begging for some extra gas.
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On October 17 2010 01:26 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 13:40 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I don't know. Minerals for terran is the limiting resource (always too much gas ... vice versa for zerg ... about balanced for toss). Killing 4 hellions that did no damage is a pretty big deal IMO. Minerals are the limiting resource for Terran? Maybe if you're going mass marine rush every game o_O When you're going mech you'll be begging for some extra gas.
I dunno. In my PvT replays (where I FE), terran usually has more gas than it can dump after mid-game. Aside from the Raven, Thor, and BCs (only the Raven sees regular action), every other Terran unit requires 100 gas or less. Terran doesn't go mech heavy against 1 gate FE (most mech heavy build is the polt push). The core units (MMM) are not as gas intensive as toss' army.
But my point is killing 4 hellions (400 minerals) is significant.
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It seems that with the nexus health boost its now a lot easier to secure a FE against terran (iffy against zerg w/ roach range 4 but that's off topic)
2000 total health is pretty sturdy, so the concept seems strong.
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I just 15 nex on jungle basin now versus terran and it hasn't failed me yet. Probably cause it was against teching terrans.
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I think for PvT for me now I used to have just such a hard time to early marauder aggression. It was my rage matchup and I`m not 1v1 solid player but I find now if I can get the Huk style two gates and robo bay to get an immortal and a few stalkers and such then it really helps to hold that off. The key really is that sentry and our ramps which is just the sad truth. After that I usually hold initial push and push back expand and then transition up into templars now. If you put a templar and a few zealots with charge at each expansion it`s super cheap and if you can put some obersvers out into the map at key points to watch for those drops coming then you can switch over and feedback that medivac before it even drops anything and if you do get a chance to maybe have a couple stalkers there you might even pick it off before it can drop and if anything you really force it to turn back tail between it`s legs.
I think it`s just important to really keep that vision up against Terran because they have a lot of options and with the current increase in drops and harass through either hellions or marauder drops it`s just easier to relieve that stress by knowing what`s going on.
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On October 17 2010 04:24 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 01:26 Saechiis wrote:On October 13 2010 13:40 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I don't know. Minerals for terran is the limiting resource (always too much gas ... vice versa for zerg ... about balanced for toss). Killing 4 hellions that did no damage is a pretty big deal IMO. Minerals are the limiting resource for Terran? Maybe if you're going mass marine rush every game o_O When you're going mech you'll be begging for some extra gas. I dunno. In my PvT replays (where I FE), terran usually has more gas than it can dump after mid-game. Aside from the Raven, Thor, and BCs (only the Raven sees regular action), every other Terran unit requires 100 gas or less. Terran doesn't go mech heavy against 1 gate FE (most mech heavy build is the polt push). The core units (MMM) are not as gas intensive as toss' army. But my point is killing 4 hellions (400 minerals) is significant.
Err... Siege Tanks cost 125 gas and Ghosts cost 150. Tanks don't see that much action thus far, especially after the nerf, but typically T players will add Ghosts in the mid/late game as a counter to HTs.
I will agree with you that a typical Terran army (MMM, eventually with G most of the time) will not be as gas starved/capped as a Protoss army will be though.
On October 17 2010 09:53 Senet wrote:
I think for PvT for me now I used to have just such a hard time to early marauder aggression. It was my rage matchup and I`m not 1v1 solid player but I find now if I can get the Huk style two gates and robo bay to get an immortal and a few stalkers and such then it really helps to hold that off. The key really is that sentry and our ramps which is just the sad truth. After that I usually hold initial push and push back expand and then transition up into templars now. If you put a templar and a few zealots with charge at each expansion it`s super cheap and if you can put some obersvers out into the map at key points to watch for those drops coming then you can switch over and feedback that medivac before it even drops anything and if you do get a chance to maybe have a couple stalkers there you might even pick it off before it can drop and if anything you really force it to turn back tail between it`s legs.
I think it`s just important to really keep that vision up against Terran because they have a lot of options and with the current increase in drops and harass through either hellions or marauder drops it`s just easier to relieve that stress by knowing what`s going on.
I missed most of today's matches due to work, but I was intrigued that HuK decided to go for the 1 Gate FE build vs Gretorp on the first day of matches. First game he expanded at around 31 food (I believe he got 2 Stalkers before doing so) while in the second game he cut probes at 22 food as his Zealot was building, then made a Stalker and expanded at 24. I thought it was super early and he had essentially no intel on Gretorp, though he somewhat lucked out as by the time he threw down the Nexus Gretorp only had 2 Marines and a Marauder.
I've been having problems against a T practice partner of mine when I go for the 1 Gate FE, though most of the time it's not really an issue with the build rather than I'm not aggressive enough. I've lost a bunch to Marine/Tank/Raven and Marine/Banshee/Raven as the PDD goes down near my expo.
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Ok I've had some time to get used to this now. The only thing I've lost to vs a terran with this is mass banshee+a raven and some marines, mostly because my robo wasn't up yet and I hadn't scouted it yet. I don't like the dual forge+citadel transition you do in the replays. What seems to work best for me is getting the 4 warpgates up after expo, then throw down a robo and chrono out an obs and an immortal, then start teching to storm/charge/ground upgrades. Cheese does it in this replay and this build is just sexy as fuck, pvt is going to start looking pretty imbalanced after this catches on but before terrans start adjusting.
http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-cheese-vs-t-ngry-lost-temple-10-17-2010
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EPT
