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On September 28 2010 04:30 Kinslayer wrote:Hey guys, Some really great info here. Do you mind though posting a few more post patch replays? ... But having a few more, updated, replays would help a lot in giving me timings to compare and work up to. again, thanks for all the info in this thread 
definitely second this, would love to possibly see OP updated with your current builds kcdc. a pack of replays against things like early marine, 3rax, this banshee/marine, and just a bunch of replays in general I think would really help everyone out a lot.
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On September 28 2010 09:39 SaintsTheMetal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:30 Kinslayer wrote:Hey guys, Some really great info here. Do you mind though posting a few more post patch replays? ... But having a few more, updated, replays would help a lot in giving me timings to compare and work up to. again, thanks for all the info in this thread definitely second this, would love to possibly see OP updated with your current builds kcdc. a pack of replays against things like early marine, 3rax, this banshee/marine, and just a bunch of replays in general I think would really help everyone out a lot.
I have a few scattered within the last few pages if you want to take a look.
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On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly.
I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it.
http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5c
http://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3g
http://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cf
http://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdn
http://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmh
I really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment.
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Watching that Thor get repaired, and the SCVs not being able to be killed, makes my little protoss heart bleed a little.
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On September 23 2010 08:05 ChickenLips wrote:Ah finally some replays! ... Those Terrans played like crap.  Their BOs looked solid but their engagement micro was so beyond horrible. Oh my god. They just panicked and insta commited. Drewbie did a 4 rax all in without any tech pushing WAAAAAAAAAY too late (after you had a solid 3 minutes of 3gaterobo macro off 2 base) and constantly commited his entire army to do some damage. Desperate all in play at its best. Trump got his 2 medivacs very quickly which, in and of itself is a good move, however he just threw his army away and ATTACKED WAY TOO LATE. The nice thing you can do is drop in the back of his base to make him decide what he wants to save, but if you let Protoss macro up his army to be way bigger than yours much of that isn't gonna help (and none if it certainly won't either). A really beautiful push I've seen qxc do against HuK's 1gate robo (pretty similiar in gateway production) was a 3 marauder(conc), 2 marine (1 before marauder production on initial rax, 1 from 2nd rax) and 2 SCV push. I did it a few times against my Protoss practice buddy and he was NEVER able to hold a 1 gate FE pre-patch even. With constant production from 1 gateway + chronoboosts Protoss will have at most 4 units out by the time Terran arrives. Now I would like to see a Gateway composition of 4 units that can hold off 3 Marauders, 2 Marines and 2 SCVs. I've checked with both your replays and at the 5:30 mark when the push arrives on far positions (Blistering) you have your 3rd stalker just popping out, so you have 3 Stalkers and 1 Zealot with a next unit about 30 seconds away (same as Terran reinforcements). 1 Zealot is completely negated my microed Marauders and 2 SCVs. So in all effect you have 3 Stalkers against 3 Marauder and 2 Marines, a battle that is almost impossible to win if T knows his MM micro. T puts up an expo, a factory and a reactor on his rax as he moves out. So the Terran expo is even faster than yours. (If doing this build. I really like your execution of the build, forgoing sentries since they just suck in low numbers. However, I am still 100% certain that with proper scouting and micro a 1 gate FE will never be able to gain advantage over a Terran that knows how to play against it. (Seriously they played terribly) Here is the replay of the build: [url blocked]
Not saying that anything you said here isn't without merit. You described a strategy that works against this build that you seen NaDa pull off. There is never a full proof build of course this is just counter to 3 rax as described in the OP not as the P vs Everthing T build. 3 rax this does hold. Aslong as you are defending and not pushing. Then you Minigun asks you to test the build with him as you describe everything in detail like you have beaten FE so many times. Then you say you will probably lose cause you have no real experience breaking the build. Its like every Terran thinking they can 5 Rax Reaper Zergs just cause morrow did it. Minigun is a good protoss and Drewbie and Trump are really good Terrans and usually whatever Trump does on Stream makes it on to ladder quickly. I'm no TL pro here but you provided 1 replay of someone else beating it. Minigun isnt Huk (no offense) and I'm sure your not NaDa (no offense) so your argument is irrelevant. This thread is huge which means that people swearing by this build have not faced NaDa on ladder so are all pretty safe using it imo.
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On September 28 2010 09:46 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:39 SaintsTheMetal wrote:On September 28 2010 04:30 Kinslayer wrote:Hey guys, Some really great info here. Do you mind though posting a few more post patch replays? ... But having a few more, updated, replays would help a lot in giving me timings to compare and work up to. again, thanks for all the info in this thread definitely second this, would love to possibly see OP updated with your current builds kcdc. a pack of replays against things like early marine, 3rax, this banshee/marine, and just a bunch of replays in general I think would really help everyone out a lot. I have a few scattered within the last few pages if you want to take a look.
yep, I've watched every high level replay I could find in this thread. thank you very much for that. Minigun, have you faced the marine/scv all-in attack? I feel like ever since oGsHyperdub almost beat Tester with it in the GSL Ro16, tons of Terrans have been immitating it, since it is SO easy to pull off, and I don't think anyone has control with 'toss like Tester does. Do you find yourself just sacrificing the expansion and FFing your ramp? or how have you dealt with it?
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Hey KCDC do you plan to update First Post? With say variations of this builds added by minigun or chronopolis different versions vs different T builds? Of course once everything is tested well and good.
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On September 28 2010 10:48 PREWTAHS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it. http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5chttp://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3ghttp://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cfhttp://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdnhttp://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmhI really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment.
Are you SebastianCox? It's true, I've only beaten that push once in about 6 or so tries. In terms of pure fire power and army size, the push is actually really weak. The problem is that the SCV surround on the high attack priority thor makes your zealots bug out. I think Blizz will eventually patch the repairing worker priority so melee units don't bug out against thors. Even if they don't, there are a lot of creative solutions I haven't tried yet like flanking, counter attacking, kiting marines with stalkers during the advance to force stims, cutting off the reinforcement path, etc.
It's an annoyingly strong push with the current AI set-up, and I think you're probably right that if P 1A's to defend that push, P will almost certainly lose. But there are a lot of ways for P to micro that aren't 1A that might be able to hold the push.
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On September 28 2010 10:48 PREWTAHS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it. http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5chttp://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3ghttp://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cfhttp://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdnhttp://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmhI really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment.
I'll give it a go
Minigun
charcode 865
On September 28 2010 23:37 SaintsTheMetal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:46 Minigun wrote:On September 28 2010 09:39 SaintsTheMetal wrote:On September 28 2010 04:30 Kinslayer wrote:Hey guys, Some really great info here. Do you mind though posting a few more post patch replays? ... But having a few more, updated, replays would help a lot in giving me timings to compare and work up to. again, thanks for all the info in this thread definitely second this, would love to possibly see OP updated with your current builds kcdc. a pack of replays against things like early marine, 3rax, this banshee/marine, and just a bunch of replays in general I think would really help everyone out a lot. I have a few scattered within the last few pages if you want to take a look. yep, I've watched every high level replay I could find in this thread. thank you very much for that. Minigun, have you faced the marine/scv all-in attack? I feel like ever since oGsHyperdub almost beat Tester with it in the GSL Ro16, tons of Terrans have been immitating it, since it is SO easy to pull off, and I don't think anyone has control with 'toss like Tester does. Do you find yourself just sacrificing the expansion and FFing your ramp? or how have you dealt with it?
Depending on the timing and army sizes I will either sacrifice it, or sent a good amount of my probes as well, which is what I normally do, with warpgate tech just coming online you should be able to fend it off.
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On September 29 2010 00:04 oZii wrote:
Hey KCDC do you plan to update First Post? With say variations of this builds added by minigun or chronopolis different versions vs different T builds? Of course once everything is tested well and good.
Nah, it is what it is. I think most people here know now that it's possible to 1gate expand vs T, and that doing so will give you certain advantages and disadvantages. Beyond suggesting getting 3 gates and a robo after your FE and finding creative ways to offset your tech deficiency, I don't have much advice to offer. There's really no sense in which it's 'my build' anymore either--if there ever was.
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On September 29 2010 01:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:04 oZii wrote:
Hey KCDC do you plan to update First Post? With say variations of this builds added by minigun or chronopolis different versions vs different T builds? Of course once everything is tested well and good. Nah, it is what it is. I think most people here know now that it's possible to 1gate expand vs T, and that doing so will give you certain advantages and disadvantages. Beyond suggesting getting 3 gates and a robo after your FE and finding creative ways to offset your tech deficiency, I don't have much advice to offer. There's really no sense in which it's 'my build' anymore either--if there ever was.
Is there a disadvantage? I really never lose my expo, ever, maybe I'm playing bad terrans, but I really never lose it anymore, once you get the timings down it's such a great build.
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On September 29 2010 01:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:48 PREWTAHS wrote:On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it. http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5chttp://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3ghttp://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cfhttp://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdnhttp://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmhI really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment. I'll give it a go Minigun charcode 865
In your one of your test games, try getting an early observer and flanking with stalkers to pick away at marines and cut off the reinforcement path as the thor advances. A pincer on the marines with zealots when the thor reaches your front would also be a nice touch. I think defending the push will come down to positioning and micro.
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On September 29 2010 01:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 01:26 Minigun wrote:On September 28 2010 10:48 PREWTAHS wrote:On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it. http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5chttp://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3ghttp://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cfhttp://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdnhttp://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmhI really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment. I'll give it a go Minigun charcode 865 In your one of your test games, try getting an early observer and flanking with stalkers to pick away at marines and cut off the reinforcement path as the thor advances. A pincer on the marines with zealots when the thor reaches your front would also be a nice touch. I think defending the push will come down to positioning and micro.
Also there is usually time for you to get an immortal out by the time the thor gets to your base, in addition to the first observer, which I always get asap.
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On September 29 2010 01:32 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 01:31 kcdc wrote:On September 29 2010 00:04 oZii wrote:
Hey KCDC do you plan to update First Post? With say variations of this builds added by minigun or chronopolis different versions vs different T builds? Of course once everything is tested well and good. Nah, it is what it is. I think most people here know now that it's possible to 1gate expand vs T, and that doing so will give you certain advantages and disadvantages. Beyond suggesting getting 3 gates and a robo after your FE and finding creative ways to offset your tech deficiency, I don't have much advice to offer. There's really no sense in which it's 'my build' anymore either--if there ever was. Is there a disadvantage? I really never lose my expo, ever, maybe I'm playing bad terrans, but I really never lose it anymore, once you get the timings down it's such a great build.
The big disadvantage is the delayed tech. I do this build every game, so I think it's pretty stable, but there are definitely a lot of times where I think, 'man this push would be a lot easier to defend if I had storm right now...." The delayed tech also hinders your ability to harass in the mid-game. With all Terran players going bio vs P, just getting to the late game on even econominc footing gives P an advantage IMO, but against mech plays, it would be nice to have earlier and better harassment capabilities.
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On September 29 2010 01:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 01:32 Minigun wrote:On September 29 2010 01:31 kcdc wrote:On September 29 2010 00:04 oZii wrote:
Hey KCDC do you plan to update First Post? With say variations of this builds added by minigun or chronopolis different versions vs different T builds? Of course once everything is tested well and good. Nah, it is what it is. I think most people here know now that it's possible to 1gate expand vs T, and that doing so will give you certain advantages and disadvantages. Beyond suggesting getting 3 gates and a robo after your FE and finding creative ways to offset your tech deficiency, I don't have much advice to offer. There's really no sense in which it's 'my build' anymore either--if there ever was. Is there a disadvantage? I really never lose my expo, ever, maybe I'm playing bad terrans, but I really never lose it anymore, once you get the timings down it's such a great build. The big disadvantage is the delayed tech. I do this build every game, so I think it's pretty stable, but there are definitely a lot of times where I think, 'man this push would be a lot easier to defend if I had storm right now...." The delayed tech also hinders your ability to harass in the mid-game. With all Terran players going bio vs P, just getting to the late game on even econominc footing gives P an advantage IMO, but against mech plays, it would be nice to have earlier and better harassment capabilities.
Oo, you remind me, that's right. You do basically have to turtle for the first 15-20 minutes due to the tech ( at least I do ) . It's fun being put on edge by every push though, holding on my a few units ^_^ .
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On September 29 2010 01:36 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 01:35 kcdc wrote:On September 29 2010 01:26 Minigun wrote:On September 28 2010 10:48 PREWTAHS wrote:On September 28 2010 06:12 tragics wrote:
Hey guys, have you seen terran players using the marine/fast 1 thor+scv repair push? The all-in happens a minute after the 2nd nexus finish. I know I could have cut probes and tech to robo faster, maybe with zeal/stalks/imms in time. But thor+repair at that early crushes my troops quickly. I'm not sure how to phrase this over the internet without coming off as insanely haughty, but I created that build (lol). I refined the timings over the course of a couple weeks. Looking through my replay history, I've actually played kc numerous times using shoddy forms of it. http://replayfu.com/download/bphr5chttp://replayfu.com/download/WPHM3ghttp://replayfu.com/download/zcs7Cfhttp://replayfu.com/download/fMtjdnhttp://replayfu.com/download/GTZtmhI really don't think kcdc's strategy holds up. I'm certain you'll lose your expo. If anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, message me and we can experiment. I'll give it a go Minigun charcode 865 In your one of your test games, try getting an early observer and flanking with stalkers to pick away at marines and cut off the reinforcement path as the thor advances. A pincer on the marines with zealots when the thor reaches your front would also be a nice touch. I think defending the push will come down to positioning and micro. Also there is usually time for you to get an immortal out by the time the thor gets to your base, in addition to the first observer, which I always get asap.
Yes, I believe you have time for an observer and one immortal even on small maps. If you can take out the marine ball, the immortal will be great for focusing down the thor against the repairing scvs.
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Hello all,
Here's a replay of what tends to happen regularly to me when I do this build, I know I'm not perfect on timings and all but so is my opponent and I still get steamrolled.
Could you please point out what I missed regarding the build
Nurkis vs Sircamel on Steppes de guerre
I always seem to get rolled over a 60/70 food MMM push ...
Thanks a lot to all who take the time to help me on this ..
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On September 29 2010 02:43 Lordcamel wrote:Hello all, Here's a replay of what tends to happen regularly to me when I do this build, I know I'm not perfect on timings and all but so is my opponent and I still get steamrolled. Could you please point out what I missed regarding the build Nurkis vs Sircamel on Steppes de guerreI always seem to get rolled over a 60/70 food MMM push ... Thanks a lot to all who take the time to help me on this ..
It said bad patch version when I tried to view it.
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It's the latest i just updated :!
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On September 29 2010 02:46 Lordcamel wrote:
It's the latest i just updated :!
Perhaps it's because it's in a different language than mine.
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EPT
