EPTDAMN!! Just saw you do it against Debo on his stream!! How do you get those units up so quick!?!?
[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 23
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
DAMN!! Just saw you do it against Debo on his stream!! How do you get those units up so quick!?!? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Sure marauders might be odd in a banshee strat but you never know for sure, a cloack banshee just does so much damage that you can't afford to miss it, even if they did a imperfect build order. Running a probe up the ramp does very little as well, if they have 3 rines standing at the edge it's shot before it even sees anything. Besides they usually have factory and starport at the back... There are only a few garanteed ways of scouting for protoss past the earlygame: - robo and observer - hallucination - stargate units Stargate is crap if you don't get it quick because phoenixes and voids absolutely suck vs MM. Hallucination costs almost as much as the robo, takes quite long to research and needs sentries with 100 energy. Robo is the only way to not die to random stuff imo, and the robo can at least make immortals which are always good to have against terran. There is just not a reliable way to know if you need a robo when you don't build it. Any other scouting means cost as much as the robo itself almost. I'd really wish hallucination would be a 50/50 upgrade or something, it would make the robo far less neccesary and there would be a lot more tricks. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 10 2010 00:15 Cibron wrote: kcdc, DAMN!! Just saw you do it against Debo on his stream!! How do you get those units up so quick!?!? Hah, thanks. He got me the second game with some weird thor drop into BC crap that I'd never seen before. My micro/macro really slipped that game. I think blink stalkers were a good choice, but I stupidly fought under PDD and died with 2k minerals in the bank. I don't think that thor into BC build is very strong tho. It just threw me off because I hadn't seen it before. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 10 2010 00:42 Markwerf wrote: I'd like to be able to skip the council but it's really hard, practically impossible to determine with certainty there are no banshee's coming even if you see some marines and marauders. Sure marauders might be odd in a banshee strat but you never know for sure, a cloack banshee just does so much damage that you can't afford to miss it, even if they did a imperfect build order. Running a probe up the ramp does very little as well, if they have 3 rines standing at the edge it's shot before it even sees anything. Besides they usually have factory and starport at the back... There are only a few garanteed ways of scouting for protoss past the earlygame: - robo and observer - hallucination - stargate units Stargate is crap if you don't get it quick because phoenixes and voids absolutely suck vs MM. Hallucination costs almost as much as the robo, takes quite long to research and needs sentries with 100 energy. Robo is the only way to not die to random stuff imo, and the robo can at least make immortals which are always good to have against terran. There is just not a reliable way to know if you need a robo when you don't build it. Any other scouting means cost as much as the robo itself almost. I'd really wish hallucination would be a 50/50 upgrade or something, it would make the robo far less neccesary and there would be a lot more tricks. Yep, you need a robo every time in PvT unless you're opening phoenix or planning to kill T before cloak is possible. It kind of sucks because the robo is out of the way unless you want collosi, but you don't really have a choice. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
1)Chrono the 2nd stalker is not needed. Chrono just 1st stalker+wg the timing is such that the sentry finishes as wg completes. Boosting wg right away might indicate to T aggression also. 2)2gate likely preferred, 32gate, 33p, 34robo The fact is that based on the rep you showed you made no real use of the extra production provided by the 3rd gate. In fact one could produce more gateway units off two wg than you did. If the large mineral commitment to constant 3wg production is made then the ob is getting pushed back slightly and more importantly probe cuts. The 3rd gate gives what 2more units by 8min? If 3gate commitment is preferred largely depends on if those extra units are absolutely needed, but from what I have seen that does not seem to be the case. Plus remember that we can use chrono on gates to help production if wanted. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 09 2010 20:57 Markwerf wrote: Also I think I've got what the perfect build order for this strategy is: 9 pylon * use first 3 chronoboosts on nexus 13 gate 15 assimilator 16 2nd pylon 18 cybercore 19 zealot without stopping probe production 22 3rd pylon 23 cybercore finishes, build stalker and get warpgate *chronoboost stalker 27 2nd stalker *chronoboost * chronoboost warpgate 30 nexus 30 sentry *chronoboost warpgate again a bit of probe cutting at this point 33 make gateway #2 and #3 33 4th pylon (make sure to have one near cliff of expansion) 33 robotics (exact supply counts after 18 cybercore can vary a little bit on losing scout probe etc.) That's very close to what I do. Thanks for writing out the numbers. The only differences between what you've listed and how I play it come at the end. I make a zealot instead of the sentry (personal preference probably), and whether I cut probes and the timing on my 2nd and 3rd gateways as well as my robo are scouting-dependent. I've taken to playing very aggressively with my first zealot and 2 stalkers (you can often force a teching T to pull scvs, and I've even killed a few T players who were dumb enough to try to FE while teching) so that I typically have a good idea how much I'll need to cut probes. If there's a bunker and just a handful of marines, don't worry at all about cutting probes to rush out additional gateways. Instead, chrono your nexus. I think you wind up getting your 2nd gateway at like 35 or so. It'd be suicide against a 3-rax, but you can get away with playing a bit greedier against 1-1-1. I'm also not a big fan of immortals, so I don't get my robo nearly that early. You don't have the resources to support constant probe production from both bases, 3 gates and a robo at that point, and you can get away with delaying your robo for another minute or two and still get the observer in time to deal with a cloak rush. If you like early immortals, you might consider delaying your 3rd gate a bit since you can't support all of your production buildings so early. Otherwise, you can probably afford to delay your robo to squeeze out some extra probes. I'd recommend relying on gateway units instead of immortals for early defense, however, because warp-in means you're always a production cycle ahead of your opponent with gateway units which makes a HUGE difference in defending early pushes. | ||
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Apollys
United States278 Posts
On September 10 2010 06:02 Knickknack wrote: Good job on the build Markwerf 1)Chrono the 2nd stalker is not needed. Chrono just 1st stalker+wg the timing is such that the sentry finishes as wg completes. Boosting wg right away might indicate to T aggression also. 2)2gate likely preferred, 32gate, 33p, 34robo The fact is that based on the rep you showed you made no real use of the extra production provided by the 3rd gate. In fact one could produce more gateway units off two wg than you did. If the large mineral commitment to constant 3wg production is made then the ob is getting pushed back slightly and more importantly probe cuts. The 3rd gate gives what 2more units by 8min? If 3gate commitment is preferred largely depends on if those extra units are absolutely needed, but from what I have seen that does not seem to be the case. Plus remember that we can use chrono on gates to help production if wanted. I'll test out what you said about chronoing only 1 stalker. But as for your second point, I definitely feel like I need that 3rd gateway, and I feel like I would be really vulnerable to just a straight up push without it. I'll definitely play around with this though. So far I'm feeling really good about this build all in all. | ||
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wongster
Canada13 Posts
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drpepper
4 Posts
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
i didnt like!! | ||
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VERMM
United States39 Posts
If a Terran play scouts this, what would be the best response to this PvT FE game plan? This seems to be the new standard for PvT and I need some help as a Terran on what to do. Let's assume I know the Protoss is doing this build even before the game starts, what should I do? In the mean time I'll scroll up and look for any TvP input, this is a great strategy and seems to be giving a lot of great Terrans a lot of trouble. Good work kcdc, especially for having an idea that has lasted over a month. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
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Loverman
Romania266 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:50 Cibron wrote: 2out of 3 diamond P are doing this in Europe. I still haven't won a game against it (im T). 3rax maybe...? I just hate doing all ins... Nope, just expand and turtle you'll win late game :D | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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tetramaster
Canada253 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:03 Loverman wrote: Nope, just expand and turtle you'll win late game :D And drops Drop everywhere and anywhere you can damn well get away with. Trick them with scans at the back of the main and then drop at the natural. Or perhaps do the opposite. Or scan both at the same time. Don't turtle too hard though, or you might just end up in a 4-5 base vs 2 base situation (which is very, VERY bad to be in against a 'toss player that's probably running 10+ gates at that point) | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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