EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 22
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:38 avilo wrote: I remember playing you and you did this. All T has to do is be aggressive with 1 base, either 2rax fact port, or 3 rax bio with a ton of scvs and suddenly it looks like a freewin. The lower diamond players are rarely ever going to pull SCVS tho, so it can be very safe. But like I said, your build/strategy works amazing versus defensive Terrans, or Terrans that go 1/1/1 and do not press the issue to get equality back. edit: ah, and on huge maps this is very good it seems, as it'd naturally be safer due to distance, but I rarely play any top P that do this anyways. Yeah, you did beat me with an early marine-tank push, but in that particular game, I believe my 2nd and 3rd gates were a little late, so I was forced to engage with 2 units fewer than usual. I've held that push countless times. Anyway, I've lost many games to early pushes using this build because I don't always execute cleanly or scout properly, but it's certainly possible to hold any early T push while FEing. It's just a matter of cutting probes at the right times and controlling well. The tricky part is knowing when and how many probes to cut because if you're cutting probes to prepare for a 1-base T push, you will fall behind against a FE T. Scouting early and often is critical. And I think it's kind of silly to say this build offers T a 'free win' when you've played against it maybe 5 times.... If you want to run some tests, you can PM me, but 1 game is pretty weak evidence.... | ||
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Feverus
71 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:38 avilo wrote: I remember playing you and you did this. All T has to do is be aggressive with 1 base, either 2rax fact port, or 3 rax bio with a ton of scvs and suddenly it looks like a freewin. The lower diamond players are rarely ever going to pull SCVS tho, so it can be very safe. But like I said, your build/strategy works amazing versus defensive Terrans, or Terrans that go 1/1/1 and do not press the issue to get equality back. edit: ah, and on huge maps this is very good it seems, as it'd naturally be safer due to distance, but I rarely play any top P that do this anyways. Avilo, what would you do against it on a larger map? Protoss seems to have the advantage when FE'ing due to the rate they can spam probes (and then their third goes up so fast..) | ||
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Irie
Germany39 Posts
thanks fpr writing this guide anyway. it helps me formulate a much clearer picture of the different hurdles one needs to take to be able to defend angainst any variation that terran can throw at you. also helps a lot to establish timings without going thru long and/or tedious custom games testing. if you have i nice opening in PvP that ís not this retarded 4warpgate bullshit but can hold it off i'd be much obliged since this is the MU im most struggling with atm | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:12 Irie wrote: ive used this build as a standard in pvt as well even before reading this. everyone who says this isnt stable, doesnt know what he is talking about. thanks fpr writing this guide anyway. it helps me formulate a much clearer picture of the different hurdles one needs to take to be able to defend angainst any variation that terran can throw at you. also helps a lot to establish timings without going thru long and/or tedious custom games testing. if you have i nice opening in PvP that ís not this retarded 4warpgate bullshit but can hold it off i'd be much obliged since this is the MU im most struggling with atm I have a fun PvP FE where you go zealot pressure (usually 1 gate, but can work with 2 gates) w/o gas into expansion with 2 cannons and then you take two gas and RUSH for charge with ~5 gates. You can get charge just in time to deal with stalkers blinking into your main behind your cannons (they blink up, but you just chase them with slow zealots until charge finishes and they don't do a whole lot of damage). It also deals nicely with 1-base collosus tech. You just pull back your zealots and start massing blink stalkers. Eventually, you'll want to engage with your zealots and blink your stalkers to the back to hit the collosi. It also punishes counter-expanding and then rushing for collosi as the early chargelot push will do a lot of damage. It's roughly on even footing with a counter-expand into gateway units (you have your expo up sooner, but they don't have to spend on cannons). It only works on Lost Temple out of the current ladder pool however. The rest of the nats are too open to defend a 4-gate with cannons + zealots. I haven't had success on Steppes, but maaaaybe it could work there. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
vs peibaksabich: early marauder pressure but long rush distance and ONLY ONE RAX till 6 mins vs lunasky: good first harass, but late concussive and bad macro after initial fight (500+ mins) vs breeze: ok build, but didn't scout or push till too late..he also ran away after winning first fight. Any replays of this yet where you face decent early marauder pressure followed by a good 3 rax? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:38 avilo wrote: I remember playing you and you did this. All T has to do is be aggressive with 1 base, either 2rax fact port, or 3 rax bio with a ton of scvs and suddenly it looks like a freewin. The lower diamond players are rarely ever going to pull SCVS tho, so it can be very safe. But like I said, your build/strategy works amazing versus defensive Terrans, or Terrans that go 1/1/1 and do not press the issue to get equality back. edit: ah, and on huge maps this is very good it seems, as it'd naturally be safer due to distance, but I rarely play any top P that do this anyways. We should play and do some 1 base allins vs the FE. I definitely believe that on a map like steppes of war it's going to be a little harder to pull it off. However, steppes is a terrible map. I would say not to use this on delta quad for the same reason, especially with the wide nat. That map is weird. Close spawns LT isn't that bad as long as T doesn't drop abuse the ledge. It's an easy nat to hold. Honestly, I've held a lot of insane 1 base allins. I don't find them to ever be particularily effective. Cloak banshee into expo is probably the best 1 base build you can do since it gives you power to do damage, gives you tech options, and keeps me somewhat contained while you expo yourself (reasonably quickly since you can start the CC quite fast). | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 09 2010 00:31 Floophead_III wrote: We should play and do some 1 base allins vs the FE. I definitely believe that on a map like steppes of war it's going to be a little harder to pull it off. However, steppes is a terrible map. I would say not to use this on delta quad for the same reason, especially with the wide nat. That map is weird. Close spawns LT isn't that bad as long as T doesn't drop abuse the ledge. It's an easy nat to hold. Honestly, I've held a lot of insane 1 base allins. I don't find them to ever be particularily effective. Cloak banshee into expo is probably the best 1 base build you can do since it gives you power to do damage, gives you tech options, and keeps me somewhat contained while you expo yourself (reasonably quickly since you can start the CC quite fast). On SoW, I actually have a lot of trouble with a marine-tank crawl to the low ground beside the natural. It's damn near unstoppable with this build at the moment, but I think the tank nerf against zealots will help a lot. Delta will remain a tough map for this build tho. The spawn positions are really close, the nats are wide open, and there's no terrain you can use to help defend. Delta is just a good map for T in general IMO. You don't want to expand to the front natural because the distances are so short which plays to Terran's strength, and you don't want to expand to the backdoor natural because Terran can abuse the cliff so effectively. On Delta, I just expand forward and cut probes for extra defensive units. You only get a small economic lead, but it's decently safe. You can try to get a real economic lead by getting an early warp prism and cliffing his backdoor expo. Anyway, drop me a line next time you catch me online and we can run some more tests. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 09 2010 00:14 quillian wrote: vs hei: no reactors on barracks, no early marauder pressure, late concussive upgrade, bad micro. vs peibaksabich: early marauder pressure but long rush distance and ONLY ONE RAX till 6 mins vs lunasky: good first harass, but late concussive and bad macro after initial fight (500+ mins) vs breeze: ok build, but didn't scout or push till too late..he also ran away after winning first fight. Any replays of this yet where you face decent early marauder pressure followed by a good 3 rax? I don't control the Terran pieces.... I can't promise you that if you use this build and execute cleanly, you'll never lose. But it works pretty well against most common Terran openers, and I haven't yet seen a build that just clearly beats it every time (except that marine-tank crawl to the low ground on SoW, but that's getting nerfed). It doesn't seem necessary to me to post a replay of every style of play a Terran could possibly use. I'm sure there are ways for a good Terran to beat this build if he knows it's coming. That's the nature of the game. | ||
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Troy47
United States60 Posts
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
On September 09 2010 02:40 Troy47 wrote: Wouldn't 2 early reapers, then 4 raks kill this? kiting your zealot and destroying your mineral line? no, this build is reaper safe, the stalker comes into play just after the first reaper gets to your base. Ideally you will only lose some minning time. Even losing some probes (less than 5 imo) that will only delay for a few seconds the economic advantage, not the tech or the gateway units count. Actually is more susceptible to a straight 4 rax than a reaper opening then 4 rax. Your 4 rax timing push will be considerable smaller if you started with some early reapers. Every marauder you can get counts. | ||
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Apollys
United States278 Posts
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
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Phisk
166 Posts
On September 09 2010 15:24 lasershark wrote: why do people try to name builds after themselves? this strategy is nothing new and you probably copied it from someone else. i myself have been doing this build for a LONG time. Its impossible to tell who invented a build first at this stage of the game, you can only talk about who popularized it. In this case its kcdc. This topic has been very helpful to a lot of toss players so it has served its purpose. If you have been using this build for a long time then you would've been better off posting a guide about it or a liquipedia entry, rather than coming here trying to make the thread about something its not. | ||
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
Its impossible to tell who invented a build first at this stage of the game, you can only talk about who popularized it. In this case its kcdc. This topic has been very helpful to a lot of toss players so it has served its purpose. If you have been using this build for a long time then you would've been better off posting a guide about it or a liquipedia entry, rather than coming here trying to make the thread about something its not. actually ttone popularized it. and i was simply commenting on the fact that too many people call builds their own. he should just call it PvT FE instead of HIS PvT FE. that's all | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The problem is not getting the expo up and running but stopping a push when stim completes. It's near impossible to get charge on time and only charge without templar backup isn't enough against a pure marauder/rine push. The problem is that I need to get a robo for observers and immortals as you are never really sure what he is doing without it. Once you see it's just pure rax units on 1 base it's near impossible to get charge on time and even if you do you won't have enough units to really beat it the push imo. Even if you do get perfect forcefields behind his army (which arguably is quite doable on steppes) I still feel that your zealots + probes + stalkers are no match for his ball of marine/marauder simply because the ball has some kind of critical mass at that point where your units start to suck alot. If i ever get to live up till storm then I usually win on the back of this opening but there is just a small vulnerability at the 9-10 min mark where it's really hard to defend on some maps because you have to defend the expo. I've thought of different alternatives such as getting a forge instead of robo and putting a cannon near the expo and one near the main (this stops banshee play long enough for you to get a robo when you see banshee's) and cannon's arent dead later on against drops but it's impossible to force a T to fight near your cannons. I also tried going colossus once I see pure rax builds instead of charge but honestly this is a bit slow and I can manage to get only 1 colossus out max vs this type of build and that won't have range then. It didn't do that much for me then but still I think this is probably the way to go. The problem is it takes quite some time for the observer to reach his base so I'm never really sure when to go colossi because frankly they suck against any 1-1-1 build or whatever I find and when I do need them i'm late. I'll probably go 3 gate 1 robo all the time now instead of 4 gating against rax pressure. 3 gates is enough to hold till the expo gets up imo and immortals afterwards are better then stalkers for holding against marauder pressure anyway. It also gives the option of teching colossi faster if you're up against only rax pressure. So far that's the only thing that consistently beats me FEing (on small maps) along with the occasional tank drop or tank push. With tanks nerf coming up only holding against rax semi-allins will be a problem it seems. Honestly I'm starting to think reverting to fast robo is better on small maps or close spawns though. You can quite easily adjust the build to put up a robo and 2nd gas when you're on close spawn and just start with immortal pressure into a FE. It isn't that much slower and you generally don't need to cut probes then so you're not really that far behind. Immortal pushes can also do some damage on small maps usually like killing a supply depot or delaying a expo so it isn't that bad, the tech advantage you have is also pretty big. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
9 pylon * use first 3 chronoboosts on nexus 13 gate 15 assimilator 16 2nd pylon 18 cybercore 19 zealot without stopping probe production 22 3rd pylon 23 cybercore finishes, build stalker and get warpgate *chronoboost stalker 27 2nd stalker *chronoboost * chronoboost warpgate 30 nexus 30 sentry *chronoboost warpgate again a bit of probe cutting at this point 33 make gateway #2 and #3 33 4th pylon (make sure to have one near cliff of expansion) 33 robotics (exact supply counts after 18 cybercore can vary a little bit on losing scout probe etc.) At this point the first gateway should be a warpgate exactly when your pylon finishes, warp in a zealot/stalker and continue from here. If you think a push is up chronoboost your warpgates a bit, cut probe production somewhat and get a immortal asap. Otherwise get observer and make probe's nonstop. Replay of this build vs 900+ pt T, ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147627.jpg) edit: the replay isn't great but it shows a pretty smooth opening so you can see how well this build order 'fits'. This build is optimal imo because it gets the nexus really quickly by exactly using the gas you have (getting a sentry is critical there). Also 3 chronoboosts on the nexus is the ideal number imo as it does get you a good lead start but also lets you get enough units still, using less is a waste of chronoboosts in my opinion (as there is a certain devaluation if you use CB later). Very important also is making your 2nd and 3rd gateway before your 4th pylon. This way they will be up the fastest without cutting probes too much. Because the first gateway is transforming to warpgate WHILE the pylon is building this fits exactly, because of this 2 chronoboosts are used on warpgate research. This build also still works with the next patch because it only makes 1 zealot while the cybercore is building so it won't matter much if that takes 5 seconds longer. Scouting at 13 is also the best timing imo as it fits well with the probe making the gateway anyway and always lets you get in the base still on the smaller 4 player maps, this way you can scout for certain all-ins that this build is NOT robust against. It's important to know that this build is not solidproof against ANY terran build (which some people in this thread claim) but by scouting in time you can still adapt. Ie. if you see a marine all-in you can get a robo up ASAP (cancel warpgate tech if neccesary) and get a 2nd assimilator asap. You can then rush for colossi while holding the ramp with a sentry. In some situations you can choose to get a 4rd gateway instead of the robotics but I think the robotics is always better, sometimes you need to skip the observer and get a immortal straight away though. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 09 2010 19:22 lasershark wrote: actually ttone popularized it. and i was simply commenting on the fact that too many people call builds their own. he should just call it PvT FE instead of HIS PvT FE. that's all A month later and somebody shows up to complain about the thread title. I'm sorry if I've offended you--I'm sure I wasn't the first person to come up with expanding after cybercore against Terran. I didn't think of the thread title as, "If you expand after cybercore, then you are doing MY build." The thread title was more like, "Here's how I, kcdc, FE against Terran. It works pretty well for me." I don't claim ownership of the idea. This build order was in the game to start; I'm sure thousands of people have already and will continue to independently come up with it. I was just the first to post on the TL strategy forums with a how-to on what I was having success with. Anyway, I think if you reread the first few pages of this thread, you will see pretty quickly that this build was NOT popular when I initially posted the guide. People were trying expanding early, but didn't consider it stable against various rushes. I laid out most of the common threats to the expansion and how you need to tweak the build in order to keep it safe. (zealot while core warps in, save chrono, cut probes, zealot-stalker-probe micro, robo timing, etc) Of course, a lot of people still don't consider it safe, so maybe in time, this build will become increasingly mine as everyone else stops using it. | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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TehForce
1072 Posts
On September 09 2010 20:57 Markwerf wrote: Also I think I've got what the perfect build order for this strategy is: 9 pylon * use first 3 chronoboosts on nexus 13 gate 15 assimilator 16 2nd pylon 18 cybercore 19 zealot without stopping probe production 22 3rd pylon 23 cybercore finishes, build stalker and get warpgate *chronoboost stalker 27 2nd stalker *chronoboost * chronoboost warpgate 30 nexus 30 sentry *chronoboost warpgate again a bit of probe cutting at this point 33 make gateway #2 and #3 33 4th pylon (make sure to have one near cliff of expansion) 33 robotics (exact supply counts after 18 cybercore can vary a little bit on losing scout probe etc.) At this point the first gateway should be a warpgate exactly when your pylon finishes, warp in a zealot/stalker and continue from here. If you think a push is up chronoboost your warpgates a bit, cut probe production somewhat and get a immortal asap. Otherwise get observer and make probe's nonstop. Replay of this build vs 900+ pt T, edit: the replay isn't great but it shows a pretty smooth opening so you can see how well this build order 'fits'. This build is optimal imo because it gets the nexus really quickly by exactly using the gas you have (getting a sentry is critical there). Also 3 chronoboosts on the nexus is the ideal number imo as it does get you a good lead start but also lets you get enough units still, using less is a waste of chronoboosts in my opinion (as there is a certain devaluation if you use CB later). Very important also is making your 2nd and 3rd gateway before your 4th pylon. This way they will be up the fastest without cutting probes too much. Because the first gateway is transforming to warpgate WHILE the pylon is building this fits exactly, because of this 2 chronoboosts are used on warpgate research. This build also still works with the next patch because it only makes 1 zealot while the cybercore is building so it won't matter much if that takes 5 seconds longer. Scouting at 13 is also the best timing imo as it fits well with the probe making the gateway anyway and always lets you get in the base still on the smaller 4 player maps, this way you can scout for certain all-ins that this build is NOT robust against. It's important to know that this build is not solidproof against ANY terran build (which some people in this thread claim) but by scouting in time you can still adapt. Ie. if you see a marine all-in you can get a robo up ASAP (cancel warpgate tech if neccesary) and get a 2nd assimilator asap. You can then rush for colossi while holding the ramp with a sentry. In some situations you can choose to get a 4rd gateway instead of the robotics but I think the robotics is always better, sometimes you need to skip the observer and get a immortal straight away though. just an adjustment: At 33 food i move a probe to the front of his base and scout what he is doing. (that means 1second vision until probe dies) When i see mass marines/marauder i skip the robotics and add the council. if i see he is teching to banshees or sth i build the robo. That really helped me defending his push | ||
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