|
First post although I've been lurking since the beta but I'd just like to say thanks for the excellent thread, it's really helped bring up my win percentage vs Terran.
I'm getting to grips with the early part of it quite nicely constantly chronoboosting that 1 gateway, timely 28-32 food expansion extra gateways, teching for obs/charge/upgrades and dealing with the various bio/biomech pushes that come.
However past that point I get a bit lost it just seems like I'm expanding more and macroing up armies and sending wave after wave eventually winning through attrition. Is there any particular unit composition that I could get quickly that would allow me to try and end the game using my early two base advantage or is it a case of just staying ahead of the terran income wise and trying to force favourable fights on the middle ground.
(Note: I've also been trying to incorporate more HT/zealot drops using warp prisms and that has helped somewhat)
|
I sometime have the same problem, it feels like i'm macroing hardcore but lacking a proper army.
Since I go FE into 4 gate against MMM (which is most of time), i like to go for chargelots and HT as a followup, i get a robo just for observers. You just have to be wary of the ghosts.
You can also go for colossi, you do 3 gates after FE and robo, then support bay, you can even put a second robo soon after and pump lots of colossi with stalkers for air protection.
If it's 1/1/1, you need to tech up to robo to get detection against banshees. After that it's probably better to continue to a colossi build, depends what your opponent is going for, immortals could be better, phoenix could be a sound choice to lift tanks, you have to adapt for this.
Maybe this build could be a good opening for mass voidray or even carrier build. Haven't tried it yet, you would have to hold the opponent with just 4 gate until midgame, it can be dangerous. Though gateway units and a couple of void rays could fare well enough to allow carriers... I don't know but i'd like to try it. Anyone has feedback on that ?
|
On September 06 2010 16:37 BrotherBax wrote:
First post although I've been lurking since the beta but I'd just like to say thanks for the excellent thread, it's really helped bring up my win percentage vs Terran.
I'm getting to grips with the early part of it quite nicely constantly chronoboosting that 1 gateway, timely 28-32 food expansion extra gateways, teching for obs/charge/upgrades and dealing with the various bio/biomech pushes that come.
However past that point I get a bit lost it just seems like I'm expanding more and macroing up armies and sending wave after wave eventually winning through attrition. Is there any particular unit composition that I could get quickly that would allow me to try and end the game using my early two base advantage or is it a case of just staying ahead of the terran income wise and trying to force favourable fights on the middle ground.
(Note: I've also been trying to incorporate more HT/zealot drops using warp prisms and that has helped somewhat)
Well if he did attack you and you fended it off pretty easily. Not loosing any building or something like that you should be in such an income advantage that you pull ahead like 20 food and if you scout his army you can just build the right counter. Most of the time it´s storm because after loosing the push most of the terran are just massing bio in panicmode to hold you off. If he builds mass tanks you just produce immortals/voids.
With the early 2base advantage you should normally push out with around 110 supply and should be able to denie him a third or kick his 2nd.
|
Great post here, I really like it. I have tried this a few times, and it has worked every time except for once, which was on a smaller map, and I had really bad control. Don't think the build was to blame, rather my 3 am micro was ;p
Great strat. Terrans are much less intimidating for me now. I had a guy multi 3 rax me and once I fought off his initial push I quickly overtook his macro. Also had a couple guys go for banshees. Once I scout something other than multi rax build I immediately go stalker heavy and drop a robo for observer after my first 3 gates.. Timing seems just fine. One guy got about 4 probes but it was easy fix because my observer was halfway done by then.
I think the time it takes to research cloak is really close to FE + 3 gates and robo...
Great build here... Now i am pretty confident PvT and PvP... PvZ is my worst matchup, probably because there are not many of them ; )
But thats for another thread...
Thank you!!
|
Nice strategy.
1) it is timed well > you have 400 minerals about time you can get rid of a scout.
2) Protoss has an advantage early game being able to spam workers. But once you get 22 their effectiveness decreases to the point it is actually arguable if you should build more on 1 base. FE solves this problem.
3) Protoss has an advantage once he gets warp-in, FE seems a logical way to capitalize on that advantage.
Weakness: It looks logical the protoss will either FE of do some kind of hard 4 gate push if you scout no second gas early as terran. Adding raxes seems logical at that point. After that a scan will reveal there are no gateways in main > a terran should scip addons and go for 3 rax MM rush. I used that build a lot. With one gate it is nearly impossible to stop that.
|
I am third rank Platinum, and I just got steamrolled using this tactic by mass marine+tank, which I didn't scout by the time the early push came. Without an early robo, i feel mass marine+tank counters this strategy quite well.
|
On September 06 2010 10:10 altairian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:22 Chronopolis wrote:
I've been having this medivac marine push that comes with ~4 medivacs and 35 marines. Basically if you FE you can't scout to be able to safely straight blind RUSH for collolus which i think comes out barely get it in time. Basically you go expo +2 more gates + robo because you saw the terran not build marauders and bunker up. Marine medicav seems to be just too much for gateway units, storm would be nice, except that it takes even longer than collolus to get to, and the marine/medivac push is rather timely. Any way to scout or deal with this? I've found just blindly getting charge ASAP after expanding handles early bio pushes of any kind really well. I haven't faced this one though so the timing may be faster than the other pushes I'm used to seeing.
but what stops the terran from scanning this, just waiting an extra 1-2 minutes, grabbing about 10 marines more, and making a slightly bigger ball that (i think) shreads even chargelots pretty fast.
|
I've been finding that teaching to colossus after 3-4 gates is the way to go vs any kind of bio. You should already have a robo up for obs, and with the extra expo money you can still have a.sizable army. High temps are good, but if you fuck up a couple storms your whole investment can go down.the drain.
|
On September 07 2010 04:49 fallore wrote:
I've been finding that teaching to colossus after 3-4 gates is the way to go vs any kind of bio. You should already have a robo up for obs, and with the extra expo money you can still have a.sizable army. High temps are good, but if you fuck up a couple storms your whole investment can go down.the drain.
so dont fuck up storms. Live on the edge, die on the edge man =)
Temps are a better answers most of the time because they also have feedback and they dont get countered by vikings, plus they can become archon tanks after they run out of energy. And youll have citadel for charge anyways, so high temps is just as logical of an option as collosi, sometimes when i see no banshees ill even skip the robo bay altogether meaning high temps are best choice.
|
On September 07 2010 05:01 t3tsubo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:49 fallore wrote:
I've been finding that teaching to colossus after 3-4 gates is the way to go vs any kind of bio. You should already have a robo up for obs, and with the extra expo money you can still have a.sizable army. High temps are good, but if you fuck up a couple storms your whole investment can go down.the drain. so dont fuck up storms. Live on the edge, die on the edge man =) Temps are a better answers most of the time because they also have feedback and they dont get countered by vikings, plus they can become archon tanks after they run out of energy. And youll have citadel for charge anyways, so high temps is just as logical of an option as collosi, sometimes when i see no banshees ill even skip the robo bay altogether meaning high temps are best choice.
Feedback is good, but by the time the terran pushes I never have enough energy for a feedback AND.a storm. Even if you don't make a mistake, storms are pretty easy to dodge and avoid, and are also countered pretty hard by ghosts. HTs are simply too much of a gamble at that point on 2 bases. Also, how do you know he's not going banshees if you don't get a robo? the obs is invaluable.
|
The question of colossi vs high templar kind of falls out of the scope of this thread but anyways:
Templar are usually the better followup in this strategy and against terran in general. Sure you need a robo bay anyway for obs but you also need a council anyway for charge so it's really about templar archives vs support bay.
The initial investment is about the same but the difference is that with this tactic you don't tech really fast. So by the time you get either the support bay or the archives it's probably about 10 minutes gametime already, at which point you're also having 5 warpgates or so already. A support bay means you can make 1 colossi every 40 seconds (that includes non-stop chronoboosting) while a templar archives means a few templar straight away while you chrono storm ASAP. This is quite in favor of the templar.
Another thing is that terran basically always teched up to starport already by the time you get your colossus tech up with this strat. With his easy access to vikings he can counter your colossi just too easily at this point in the game in PvT. Besides vikings, colossus tech can also suck agianst some other stuff for example banshee's. Against banshee marine you often need a few extra obs and can't really afford colossi anymore because you need lots of stalkers, with templar however you automatically counter banshee's as well.
Also immortals are basically a better stalker against bio, they are a bit slower but do much more damage (even more against marines then stalkers) and just rock when they don't get EMPed properly. With immortals + HT + zealots you can make it pretty hard for the terran to completely EMP you if you split up those 3 groups a bit, you can always use a warp prism to make sure some templars dont get EMPed.
All in all templar tech is much more sound against terran. Colossi tech is imo a move you only do against heavy marine builds where you try to be very aggresive before he can switch to marauder/viking properly. Only against heavy marine builds are colossi great and templar are pretty good as well then so it's just the safer bet. So far I only do a colossi build if I scout a no gas build from terran and then put up 2nd gas ASAP and tech colossi without a expo. Besides that there is just no need for them imo.
|
On September 07 2010 03:30 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 10:10 altairian wrote:On September 06 2010 09:22 Chronopolis wrote:
I've been having this medivac marine push that comes with ~4 medivacs and 35 marines. Basically if you FE you can't scout to be able to safely straight blind RUSH for collolus which i think comes out barely get it in time. Basically you go expo +2 more gates + robo because you saw the terran not build marauders and bunker up. Marine medicav seems to be just too much for gateway units, storm would be nice, except that it takes even longer than collolus to get to, and the marine/medivac push is rather timely. Any way to scout or deal with this? I've found just blindly getting charge ASAP after expanding handles early bio pushes of any kind really well. I haven't faced this one though so the timing may be faster than the other pushes I'm used to seeing. but what stops the terran from scanning this, just waiting an extra 1-2 minutes, grabbing about 10 marines more, and making a slightly bigger ball that (i think) shreads even chargelots pretty fast.
The fact that you're on 2 bases and he's on 1. His options are either kill you now or expand. Waiting only puts him farther and farther behind. Even if he kills all the chargelots you have right this second, your next production wave or two plus all the stalkers you didn't let die because you're a good player will generally clean up what's left.
|
I know it's not really relevant at the moment, but a question for those of you with more experience in this opening;
How do you forsee the upcoming zealot buildtime nerf hypothetically affecting this build? It seems that early game hangs by a thread, and that the increased build time might leave you with a unit or two less in those critical stages of possible early agression - will it be enough to be a potential dealbreaker?
|
the zealot build time isn't so much of a problem. The first zealot is built during the production of the cybercore so 5 seconds extra on that doesn't really matter if you adjust the build well enough, perhaps scout a bit later (which seems even more unneccesary with bunker & reaper nerf). Afterwards I only tend to make 0 or 1 extra zeal the regular way so that hardly matters.
What matters more is the warpgate nerf imo as getting that 2nd wave will be a bit later and production from 3 or 4 gates will not be the same as before. That might make this build a lot harder but without complete patch notes it's too hard to say. The marine tank push is easier to stop and no longer a issue but there is a chance that the patch will also include other nerfs/buffs that havent been listed before, perhaps a slight marauder nerf?
Either way I think it will still be viable after patch but not against the most aggresive all-ins (which imo it isn't now either, no gas - all marine with scvs is one that kills it for example). But that's what scouting is for afterall.
|
How would this build work against MM+Ghost attack which I always die to around 60 food? It just doesn't seem possible to hold it off AND save your expansion and it's hard enough to deal with on one base. I also think around this time your economic advantage won't kick in quite yet and you'll just be behind in army count.
Does anyone have a replay of this against 3rax+ghost?
|
i havent read the whole thread, so if this has been discussed or answered before im sorry.
first of all i really appreciate the great idea of using the chrono boosts to skip on gateways early on to fund a FE. maybe this way the economical return of the chrono boosts is higher than investing them into probes.
what i really doubt though is the viability of this build against 3rax. in all the 3 replays against 3 rax provided in the OP, the terran was playing pretty poor. on blistering sands he just sacs 2 deep red marauders in a pitiful attempt to force them up the ramp against 2 healthy stalkers. in the other 2 games they hit u way too late, when ur eco already has kicked in and u got an overwhelming army advantage which makes up for the inherent mm > gateway.
i think ur build will get eaten alive by one of those 3rax pushes which hit at around 7 mins in the game with some 6 marines 8 marauders with concussive shells and stim. such a "3 rax timing push" or however u wanna call it will hit before ur eco has kicked in. with stim he will have the army advantage so that he can prevent u from mining from the expo.
|
Just wanted to chime in that I swear by this opening in PvT. It jumped my winrate vs. T from around 50% to an absurd 75%. I have been eating 3 raxes and iEchoic's hellion drop builds for breakfast.
On September 07 2010 12:44 Black Gun wrote:
i think ur build will get eaten alive by one of those 3rax pushes which hit at around 7 mins in the game with some 6 marines 8 marauders with concussive shells and stim. such a "3 rax timing push" or however u wanna call it will hit before ur eco has kicked in. with stim he will have the army advantage so that he can prevent u from mining from the expo.
This comes up a lot in this thread: I'm going to do my part to stem the tide of skepticism, so I have for you two different replays fresh off the presses. For reference (for chronic critics), I'm at 950 Diamond level.
This replay is a 2 Rax push with stim and conc shells. It hit right after I started mining from my new base. I even donate a sentry, zealot and couple of stalkers in the fight, but am still able to hold with reinforcements and some (bad) micro.:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/74487-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
Here it is against a 3 Rax marauder push. This one hit at around the normal time, which is well after the econ boost kicks in. Again, I donate some stalkers, but I'm still able to hold with little problem:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/74488-1v1-terran-protoss-blistering-sands
Hope these help quell the doubters, and kudos to kcdc for this build--there's no way I could have such a good PvT without it.
|
I've been having a hell of a time with terran tonight, going something like 1-5 in ever more frustrating loses. I've been trying out your FE build kcdc, but I'm having a devil of a time not just ~dying~ to anything terran decides to respond with. I've uploaded the two best loses I've got that aren't pure 8 rax cheese or other sillyness. Any insight into where I'm going wrong would be greatly appreciated, from anybody with some insight!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147030.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147031.jpg)
Again, preemptive <3 for any advice rendered.
|
i think key to this build is makin pressure in front of the T base, so he cant scout the FE early and thinks that P is going for some 4 gate.
|
@ budmandude, thats a decent replay of stopping a 2 rax push indeed.
Your build seems a bit off though. You cut alot of probes to get 2 zealots before the cybercore finishes and your stalker and warpgate tech are only delayed afterwards, wasting gateway time.
The build is better by chronoboosting probes at your main 1 or 2 times more and just making 1 zealot in the time your cybercore is building, then 2 stalkers then 1 sentry etc. By chronoboosting the stalkers instead of the zealots you get to poke with a stalker earlier, even before concussive shell finishes giving you some extra information. Also you'll have quite a bit better economy which means your nexus and 4 warpgates will only be up sooner which makes up for the 1 zealot less (you have more stalkers faster anyway.)
Anyway it shows the power of warpgates vs MMM early on, MMM might be more efficient but gateway units make up for that by not needing any upgrades early on and having big numbers. Early on imo you need a few more stalkers compared to zealots (to help against kiting) and later on you want a few stalkers and a few immortals instead of only stalkers as ranged army. You have a idle robo bay anyways. For the rest it's a classic replay of this strategy, though with every replay here you can always say the terran didn't do the push well which because he made a factory and didn't rally well was the case again :<
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
