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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
I decided to try it out, and even though I screwed up quite a lot I still somehow managed to beat a 1000 point Terran with my first attempt at using it (I've never beaten a player ranked that high, I have 700 points and a record of like 25% wins against 600 point Terrans). Absolutely incredible. Much love for the OP <3 | ||
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
On September 06 2010 12:35 Floophead_III wrote: I actually have been laddering protoss again, using this strategy every game. I like to get 1 sentry early, after my stalker or after 2. It frees up some minerals and you'll want that sentry for any push. The earlier its out the more energy itll have and the more FFs you'll have for less cost. Also they do just as well at holding off early marauder aggression builds as stalkers (actually a little better with that FF). Straight up, Sentries > Stalkers against Marauders. You can get 2 Zealots and a Sentry for the price of 2 Stalkers. While Stalkers do more damage, Sentries actually have more effective HP (since the armor reduce 10% of damage rather than 5% and Stalkers take double damage). Sentries are as fast as Marauders so they can still chase if they kite. And of course, this is all before you factor in Guardian Shield, Force Field, and the overall strength of those 2 Zealots. Stalkers are expeeennnsive. | ||
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RailGuN
Singapore73 Posts
How should you micro against the reaper before your stalker is out? I'll definitely watch the replay again, but would appreciate it if someone could give me a rough description. Also is there any cheese strat you will 100% lose to? And has anyone run into proxy reaper, but only 1 reaper then straight to marauders? I lost to that, but I was playing rather sloppy that game. I think my problem was I couldn't get a stalker out in time to kill the reaper so facing both marauder and reaper was tough. I assume it's basically the same as vs straight proxy marauder, just have zealot tank damage while stalkers attacks marauders and pull back with stalker as zealot dies. Would you do anything different? | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:43 Budmandude wrote: This comes up a lot in this thread: I'm going to do my part to stem the tide of skepticism, so I have for you two different replays fresh off the presses. For reference (for chronic critics), I'm at 950 Diamond level. This replay is a 2 Rax push with stim and conc shells. It hit right after I started mining from my new base. I even donate a sentry, zealot and couple of stalkers in the fight, but am still able to hold with reinforcements and some (bad) micro.: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/74487-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns Here it is against a 3 Rax marauder push. This one hit at around the normal time, which is well after the econ boost kicks in. Again, I donate some stalkers, but I'm still able to hold with little problem: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/74488-1v1-terran-protoss-blistering-sands no offense, especially as this is coming from me who is a noob, but seriously, wtf? u are 950 diamond and the guys u play perform an early game all in rush and manage to let their barracks sit idle for one whole minute because he didnt build the refinery in time and has to wait for the gas for the tech lab?! a guy who while performing a 3 rax is at 33 supply at the 7 minute mark and finally attacks some 10 minutes in the game? u gotta be kidding me. sorry if i sound snobbish, but these are not some minor flaws, these are huge blunders which render the pedagogic value of that replay to zero. that such a horrible 3 rax push fails is neither a surprise nor does it tell anything about how well the FE does against a well-performed 3 rax all in. the second replay on xel naga caverns is better, but he pushes in some 10 seconds before his stim finishes and later proceeds to fight u for about a minute with the damaged leftovers from his initial attack while 5-7 reinforcements have a barbeque at the watchtower... this fight could also have gone completely different if he had brought all his reinforcements immediately while u were still fighting with his initial force. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147116.jpg) | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
vs a fast marauder push or reaper u will not have any less units than with a 4 gate, since 4 gate also only really kicks in around the time that this expo starts running. with a 2 gate you will of course have more units but also a later stalker, which makes an early reaper even harder to defend against. So the weakest time of this build is IMO shortly before the expansion finishes until the time the warpgates are done and the extra money comes in. | ||
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Kryptix
United States138 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:55 Freeborn wrote: just try the build, before you criticise it... vs a fast marauder push or reaper u will not have any less units than with a 4 gate, since 4 gate also only really kicks in around the time that this expo starts running. with a 2 gate you will of course have more units but also a later stalker, which makes an early reaper even harder to defend against. So the weakest time of this build is IMO shortly before the expansion finishes until the time the warpgates are done and the extra money comes in. Which is actually before stim, so at a bad time for T to push, because that is when his 3rd rax or 3+4 if its 2 tech 2 naked rax kick in and he can actually ramp up bio production. This will turn into equal numbers of MM vs ZS and protoss will win with micro most of the time. If P wins there, due to warpgate reinforcements coming in mid fight while T reinforcements have to walk the whole map, its pretty much GG. Counter attack wins it outright. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia904 Posts
What I'm currently doing with FE is this: 1)gas before 2nd gate. 2)2nd gate and robo, one after another, order depends on what stalker has seen. 3)chrono obs or an immortal if attack is coming. 4)Constant immortal chrono if it's any kind of mass rax opening, or if there are tanks. 5)Immortal/2gate production is what you could usually afford off 1 base; but with 2base you can constantly make probes and take 3rd gas (about as soon as obs reaches the enemy) and get a support bay if there are marines. I haven't tested much on how it fares against mass marine/stim, but I expect to have a colossi in time for when marine numbers get dangerously high. I still get blink if they open with cloaked banshees, and then I can follow with charge + transition to HTs very smooth. Otherwise, attacking with ~2immortal/2colossi/range/gateway units and taking my 3rd meanwile allows to transition to either mass Void Rays or chargelot/HT. Overall I simply find that getting storm fast enough is troublesome while rushing charge, which is necessary not to die immediately on this route, be it terran FE or 1base - simply any greately microed bio mix. Foregoing storm for sentries might be an option, but terran that can bide his time and back off until ghost/mule kicks in, is really annoying to play against. Also, HT are so damn slow, it's hard to be offensive with them on the bigger maps. Those maps that FE is safer on  . Mule on gold can overcome a lot of eco disadvantages, and a good timed attack on terran 3rd attempt is a must; I find colossi + warp prism backstab more suited for the job.Though mass storm drops are also sweet as an aggressive follow up to charge/HT route. Always forget those lately. | ||
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TDC
United States197 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On September 08 2010 00:44 whateversclever wrote: Straight up, Sentries > Stalkers against Marauders. You can get 2 Zealots and a Sentry for the price of 2 Stalkers. While Stalkers do more damage, Sentries actually have more effective HP (since the armor reduce 10% of damage rather than 5% and Stalkers take double damage). Sentries are as fast as Marauders so they can still chase if they kite. And of course, this is all before you factor in Guardian Shield, Force Field, and the overall strength of those 2 Zealots. Stalkers are expeeennnsive. Err, they take pretty much the same number of shots to die from Marauders and half as many shots from Marines. Nobody goes pure Marauder unless they like to lose a lot. Sentry Shield = 40 Health = 40 Armour = 1 Without GS: 4 Shots on shield, 5 shots on health = 9 With GS: 5 shots on shield, 6 shots on health = 11 Stalker Shield = 80 Health = 80 Armour = 1 Without GS: 4 shots on shield, 5 shots on health = 9 With GS: 5 shots on shield, 5 shots on health = 10 Granted, you get more Force Fields and more tankability from the extra Zealots you've got, but you're spending more minerals on food, too don't forget. Each supply a unit is worth is 12.5 minerals to the cost of a Pylon, so its really something like 2 Stalkers = 300 minerals (50 from half a Pylon) + 100 gas -> 160 shield, 160 health, Armoured 1 Sentry, 2 Zealots = 325 minerals (75 from 3/4ths of a Pylon) + 100 gas -> 140 shield, 240 health, Light. So, the army will definitely survive longer against Marines and Marauders, but run into trouble with melee exposure and when things like Banshees start showing up. There really isn't a whole lot of reason to get too many Stalkers early-on, unless they're going nuts on Reapers or you see a Banshee rush coming, but you have to be careful you're not relying on Zealots bumping into each other too much. Plus, Ghosts EMPing all your Sentries and they'll get kited all day. | ||
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
I am sick of all the shit on the forum right now. | ||
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Dsn4001
Korea (South)106 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
It's basically impossible to get storm before the MM push and charge is already really difficult. The MMM push seems to have a critical mass around 9 mins where you have lots of trouble beating it off as zealots just stumble a bit too much against a pack of MM. If they invested in factory and starport you usually get the time to get storm and you have a great advantage but I can't manage to stop the rax only MM pushes on small maps yet. I'm considering changing to 1 gate 1 robo play for this maps it just seems a bit safer and is fairly well at punishing terran expo's on small maps at the same time. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
It's basically impossible to get storm before the MM push and charge is already really difficult. The MMM push seems to have a critical mass around 9 mins where you have lots of trouble beating it off as zealots just stumble a bit too much against a pack of MM. If they invested in factory and starport you usually get the time to get storm and you have a great advantage but I can't manage to stop the rax only MM pushes on small maps yet. I'm considering changing to 1 gate 1 robo play for this maps it just seems a bit safer and is fairly well at punishing terran expo's on small maps at the same time. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Versus the one basing Terrans up higher though...post above pretty much describes how a 1 base Terran is going to use n abuse you. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 08 2010 04:11 Soulforged wrote: I've had some mayor problems with MM (marines/medivac/1raven+PDD/stim) 9minute attack, so currently I'm playing FE on bigger maps/spawn locations and a standard 1gate robo->3gate on closer locations, void ray on air close. What I'm currently doing with FE is this: 1)gas before 2nd gate. 2)2nd gate and robo, one after another, order depends on what stalker has seen. 3)chrono obs or an immortal if attack is coming. 4)Constant immortal chrono if it's any kind of mass rax opening, or if there are tanks. 5)Immortal/2gate production is what you could usually afford off 1 base; but with 2base you can constantly make probes and take 3rd gas (about as soon as obs reaches the enemy) and get a support bay if there are marines. I haven't tested much on how it fares against mass marine/stim, but I expect to have a colossi in time for when marine numbers get dangerously high. I still get blink if they open with cloaked banshees, and then I can follow with charge + transition to HTs very smooth. Otherwise, attacking with ~2immortal/2colossi/range/gateway units and taking my 3rd meanwile allows to transition to either mass Void Rays or chargelot/HT. Overall I simply find that getting storm fast enough is troublesome while rushing charge, which is necessary not to die immediately on this route, be it terran FE or 1base - simply any greately microed bio mix. Foregoing storm for sentries might be an option, but terran that can bide his time and back off until ghost/mule kicks in, is really annoying to play against. Also, HT are so damn slow, it's hard to be offensive with them on the bigger maps. Those maps that FE is safer on . Mule on gold can overcome a lot of eco disadvantages, and a good timed attack on terran 3rd attempt is a must; I find colossi + warp prism backstab more suited for the job.Though mass storm drops are also sweet as an aggressive follow up to charge/HT route. Always forget those lately. I agree that this timing push is one of the most difficult to deal with. It sounds like you try to get storm a lot earlier than I do tho. I stay on one gas for quite a long time--I typically get 3 gates, then robo, then add my second gas and my twilight. I usually have at least 5 gates before I add my templar archives. It sounds like you're finding your build to have a weakness at about 9 minutes where you've dumped a lot of money into teching storm, but don't have storm yet. You might try slowing storm tech down another minute or two and adding more units to get you over that hump. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 08 2010 20:58 avilo wrote: this is a good build, especially versus low diamond Terrans that do not know how to punish it or Terrans you know are going to be purely defensive. If they do not move out or add production or get late stim or such, your expo is safe. Versus the one basing Terrans up higher though...post above pretty much describes how a 1 base Terran is going to use n abuse you. Eh, everyone's got their own opinion of course. I've beaten 1400+ T players with it, so it works at pretty high levels at decently. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:04 kcdc wrote: Eh, everyone's got their own opinion of course. I've beaten 1400+ T players with it, so it works at pretty high levels at decently. I remember playing you and you did this. All T has to do is be aggressive with 1 base, either 2rax fact port, or 3 rax bio with a ton of scvs and suddenly it looks like a freewin. The lower diamond players are rarely ever going to pull SCVS tho, so it can be very safe. But like I said, your build/strategy works amazing versus defensive Terrans, or Terrans that go 1/1/1 and do not press the issue to get equality back. edit: ah, and on huge maps this is very good it seems, as it'd naturally be safer due to distance, but I rarely play any top P that do this anyways. | ||
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kasuya
Spain95 Posts
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