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On September 04 2010 02:44 Sleight wrote:
1a) Terran can get effective saturation at his natural faster because of the double Mule strength,
wut. MULEs don't affect saturation. Obviously toss will saturate first with chrono.
so unless your FE is ahead of his by >1 real minute aka 1.5 game minutes, you are going to be at a slight economic disadvantage unless you do damage. As such, you need to try to eek out a quick 3rd or do some harass.
Early MULEs are spending their time making up for the T's worker deficiency relative to P (time spent making orbital + probes chronod by P, usually T is like 4-5 workers behind P when orbital goes up). 2base is better for toss because it staves off saturation, which is when T's econ will pull ahead. Pre-saturation, and especially at <=16 on minerals, P has a superior economy.
2a) A quick MMM push with +1 attack and Stim can absolutely roll this. I think most of the success you are having is because people are not yet incorporating fast Upgrades into MMM pushes. I have started to open 3 Rax, +1 Attack, with just a handful of Medivacs and I haven't lost much to any Protoss who aren't massing hard on Gateway units.
If 1base can hold MMM pushes then FE can too because it's late enough that the expo will have paid for itself. The ONLY time 1base > 2base is before the expo has paid for itself, and MMM is after that.
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I said "effective" referring to the fact that a single Mule pulls in the same income as 5 workers. Sure you are 5 ahead, but I have 2 mules. Trust me when I say, Terran pulls in more income on equal bases. Just test it to see that it's true.
You ignored what I said. You hvae not been playing stripped down MMM builds. People are waiting until 7-8 minutes to MMM push. You can push with +1, Stim, and a few Medivacs around 6 minutes. Your nexus will barely pay for itself in that time and you won't have had time to invest more stuff into production facilities. I think we are all able to be greedy because of how sloppy attack timings are.
I am not saying this is bad at all, it is a strong idea, just that y'all should be careful about being too reliant on this build.
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On September 04 2010 02:56 Sleight wrote:
I said "effective" referring to the fact that a single Mule pulls in the same income as 5 workers. Sure you are 5 ahead, but I have 2 mules. Trust me when I say, Terran pulls in more income on equal bases. Just test it to see that it's true.
Once they make up their worker deficiency yes..which is why toss needs to expand, so they can keep chronoing probes like whoa.
You ignored what I said. You hvae not been playing stripped down MMM builds. People are waiting until 7-8 minutes to MMM push. You can push with +1, Stim, and a few Medivacs around 6 minutes. Your nexus will barely pay for itself in that time and you won't have had time to invest more stuff into production facilities. I think we are all able to be greedy because of how sloppy attack timings are.
Replay pls?
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a MMM with +1 and stim at minute 6 ? are u high ?
need replay.
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On September 04 2010 02:56 Sleight wrote:
I said "effective" referring to the fact that a single Mule pulls in the same income as 5 workers. Sure you are 5 ahead, but I have 2 mules. Trust me when I say, Terran pulls in more income on equal bases. Just test it to see that it's true.
You ignored what I said. You hvae not been playing stripped down MMM builds. People are waiting until 7-8 minutes to MMM push. You can push with +1, Stim, and a few Medivacs around 6 minutes. Your nexus will barely pay for itself in that time and you won't have had time to invest more stuff into production facilities. I think we are all able to be greedy because of how sloppy attack timings are.
I am not saying this is bad at all, it is a strong idea, just that y'all should be careful about being too reliant on this build.
Clearly you mean 6 minutes real time not game time. That equates to something like 9 minutes, which for a 1 base allin is pretty late.
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On September 04 2010 02:56 Sleight wrote:
I said "effective" referring to the fact that a single Mule pulls in the same income as 5 workers. Sure you are 5 ahead, but I have 2 mules. Trust me when I say, Terran pulls in more income on equal bases. Just test it to see that it's true.
You ignored what I said. You hvae not been playing stripped down MMM builds. People are waiting until 7-8 minutes to MMM push. You can push with +1, Stim, and a few Medivacs around 6 minutes. Your nexus will barely pay for itself in that time and you won't have had time to invest more stuff into production facilities. I think we are all able to be greedy because of how sloppy attack timings are.
I am not saying this is bad at all, it is a strong idea, just that y'all should be careful about being too reliant on this build.
You can also have some vikings to absolutely ruin 1base colossus by that time, imo the gateway heavy army is less exploitable and they have power in numbers. You also have more money to get HTs and charge, among other cool stuff 
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I really like this build and am having a lot of success with it, but the new 3-1-2 terran build (described here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215 ) is giving me a lot of trouble. I can defend the first "poke" of marines/marauders just fine, but I can't seem to defend against the 1-base push consisting of marines, hellions, ravens, and banshees. Even though I can get a pretty sizable force of zealots+stalkers, the PDD reduces my stalkers DPS quite a bit, my observers get sniped easily, and then the banshees cloak and finish everything else off. I've been trying to squeeze out as many units as possible but I just can't seem to hold this off.
Perhaps some tactical/positioning changes can help against this? Maybe it would be easier to fend off if Protoss engages in the middle of the map, forcing the PDDs to go down in an open area where Protoss can retreat from.
Does anybody have any ideas on how to play against this build?
Here are some replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7yxnh45hudkn7nb
http://www.mediafire.com/?c0i76k2da4qcccj
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@ sleight
A stim and medivacs and +1 push comes quite late. By that time the expo has already paid off and it only has a tech disadvantage compared to 1 basing. By the time you get charge that tech disadvantage is basically gone as well as with 4 gases you really catch up in getting templar. Also +1 is hardly critical in a push against protoss, i'm much more scared of just a few more units then terran spending a fair bit on +1 early.
The fact that terran can get effective saturation earlier because of double MULE is even more complete nonsense.. 2 base vs 2 base is more in protoss favor then 1 base vs 1 base. This is because protoss reaches saturation far faster then terran because of chronoboost and OC.
In economic power protoss is ahead if both races expand at the same time because double chronoboost pulls ahead further then OCs. A mule is only worth 3.3 scv's and the OC takes 2 scv buildtimes to make, 2 chronoboosts lets you make about 3.3 probes in the time of 2 probes normally. Ie. 2 CB's on nexus are about even to making the OC.
This by the way doesnt mean CB is better because OCs let you put effectively more workers at 1 base which is a great advantage, therefore i feel much more comfortable 2 basing vs a 2 base terran then 1 base vs 1 base.
Another thing to note is that bigger numbers are in favor of protoss because of the way their tech tree is made up. Protoss generally makes tech structures (council, archives etc) and then ups production with cheap gateways, Terran has tech and production capability in the same buildings (addons, factory, starport etc).
For example if you want to go chargelots and templar on 1 base you make 4 gateways, 1 cybern. core 1 council and 1 archives, if you want to do the same on 2 bases you only have to add 3 to 4 extra gateways.
With terran if you go MMM on 1 base you need 3-4 raxes with addons and factory and starport. If you want to do the same on 2 bases you need 3-4 extra raxes WITH addons as well.
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On September 04 2010 05:06 Ernzoa wrote:I really like this build and am having a lot of success with it, but the new 3-1-2 terran build (described here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215 ) is giving me a lot of trouble. I can defend the first "poke" of marines/marauders just fine, but I can't seem to defend against the 1-base push consisting of marines, hellions, ravens, and banshees. Even though I can get a pretty sizable force of zealots+stalkers, the PDD reduces my stalkers DPS quite a bit, my observers get sniped easily, and then the banshees cloak and finish everything else off. I've been trying to squeeze out as many units as possible but I just can't seem to hold this off. Perhaps some tactical/positioning changes can help against this? Maybe it would be easier to fend off if Protoss engages in the middle of the map, forcing the PDDs to go down in an open area where Protoss can retreat from. Does anybody have any ideas on how to play against this build? Here are some replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?7yxnh45hudkn7nbhttp://www.mediafire.com/?c0i76k2da4qcccj
Like EMP, you're at the mercy of Terran if he PDDs and banshees. Just disengage and fight on your terms some other place some other time.
But I once had banshee+PDD at my mineral line and lost my nexus. There was nothing I could do about it 
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On September 04 2010 05:06 Ernzoa wrote:I really like this build and am having a lot of success with it, but the new 3-1-2 terran build (described here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215 ) is giving me a lot of trouble. I can defend the first "poke" of marines/marauders just fine, but I can't seem to defend against the 1-base push consisting of marines, hellions, ravens, and banshees. Even though I can get a pretty sizable force of zealots+stalkers, the PDD reduces my stalkers DPS quite a bit, my observers get sniped easily, and then the banshees cloak and finish everything else off. I've been trying to squeeze out as many units as possible but I just can't seem to hold this off. Perhaps some tactical/positioning changes can help against this? Maybe it would be easier to fend off if Protoss engages in the middle of the map, forcing the PDDs to go down in an open area where Protoss can retreat from. Does anybody have any ideas on how to play against this build? Here are some replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?7yxnh45hudkn7nbhttp://www.mediafire.com/?c0i76k2da4qcccj
Yes against early ravens you must engage away from your base, engage in a real fight, try to control zealot well and retreat when he casts PDD.
Another way might be to find more room for the Robo early like 1-2Gate, expand, Robo, 2-1Gate, make quick observer.
You should also try to poke more, I really find that until stim kicks in you have a lot of profit to actually be agressive. M&M vs Stalker/Zealots without stim is actually quite manageable and the fact is the smaller the armies are the stronger the protoss force is so dealing damage reducing his force is in your advantage even if you lose the same amount as him. This is due to the fact that zealots decrease in strength the more range the ennemy has because during big army battle a big range ball can fire all at once against a melee-range mix : the back shoots the melee and the front shoots melee and range whereas the melee have to walk first and their range will probably not be able to all shoot due to collision, they will shoot only the front of the ball. (Charge helps but you won't have early charge with a FE build). You can test it, make one ball vs zealot/stalker 50:50 and make 2 half version battle of those, protoss will come better from the second one (test it with big enough numbers like 60vs60 and 2x 30vs30)
From poking you can gather information, if he is not going 3rax you actually have a good chance to be on par with his fighting force before banshee, which means : he is getting fast starport which means banshees ravens or medivacs. You can try to throw down a starport from here and get earlier 3rd gaz but in any case I would suggest to always get a semi quick robo because cloak-rush is a real threat.
For your own replays :
1st replay : You are far too passive on the scouting, you either need to poke more with units to gather information or get a quicker robo. Such a late 1st observer (9min) would make you lose to cloak anyway. During the last battle you fight under PDD and attacked your own observer...
2nd replay : You lost too much to his first poke and this is due to micro mistakes, your Z fought without S and your probe fought without S at the start. 1-2s might seem negligeable, it is not (this is why the attacker as often an advantage of suprprise big or small depending on the other reaction time). You need better obs control, there is no reason to lose it from marines especially since you should be aware of his tactics; this is something you have to train for and remember to think about when you fight this. And finally make a 2nd observer faster if you have none, without parking your units under his cloaked banshees make them spread and run.
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Thankyou kcdc, this build is really awesome and i like that you are trying to be more 'starcrafty' with your play rather than more 'wc3-like'
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Id like to know what i did wrong. I got rolled SO fucking hard right here by so a HUGE bio-ball how could this build posibly EVER deal with this kind of timed bio-ball
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145761.jpg)
Eek sorry lol didnt think ppl would respond that fast, i figured id make the post first while the replay uploaded then edit it in, never seen anyone respond here that fast never mind 2 people! lol thanx for quick response
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On September 04 2010 13:05 Unosnow wrote:
Id like to know what i did wrong. I got rolled SO fucking hard right here by so a HUGE bio-ball how could this build posibly EVER deal with this kind of timed bio-ball
Post the replay.
I've been trying this, but I don't play that often, and when it doesn't work, I see a dozen things I should have done better so it doesn't really invalidate the strat.
I'm still not sold on it, though.
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a replay would help, so we can tell you what went wrong... or to see if the build the terran made counters this one
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Am i supose to have 4 warpgates up by the time warpgate is finished? If so i dont see how the expo that early (20-24) is even close to worth it because neither base will be even close to saturated.
If this is the case i would go 2gate into chrono boosting warpgate 100% of the time and expand at 26 and just boost out 1 stalker to deny scouting and keep ur fingers crossed.
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k, just my opinions on what i saw in ur replay... first off, u need to cut some prove production after u make ur nexus, and make a 2nd and 3rd gateway asap, that gives u a better unit production, u were doubling ur opponents income half of the game, with some more gateways u should have roflstomped him. Game took way too much time for u to have 60 supply, and btw, u got supply blocked for a long time in 60. Wich is a hard mistake :S
Edit: forgot to mention about ur gas.... u don't need more than 1 gas for gateway production, u made 3 assimilators by the time u should have 1, maybe 2.. wasted the mineral production of 6 proves, to have 400+ gas stored for most of the game.
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This is kinda similar to Ernzoa's post but I haven't actually had to deal with the 3-1-2 yet. I did play quite a few games against the 1-1-2 vs a friend yesterday and its got me reeling.
Firstly when playing against the 2port hellion drop do yall stay on defense, try to be aggressive, or some mix?
I've tried all out aggression and all out defense and both seemed very sketchy in my limited experience. I'm still not sure how many defenders is *enough* to protect the probes. I hate having all my forces on defense too as normally I feel like I could almost kill the terran (and have) right as the hellions drop, before the banshee are in force.
When I first started using this build I would always try to crack the main (with like.. 10 stalkers, 4 zealots and a sentry) against someone who was obviously turtle teching. Since playing against the hellion drop opening I've been sitting back in my base with full attention to my minimap.
Secondly what do you think is the best midgame response to the 2port (after drop or if it never comes). I've been adding a robo for obs and more gateway units. I tried phoenix AND robo once to mixed success. My attempts don't feel hopeless but definitely feel unrefined (past the FE, which I love btw).
PS. I watched some games of whitera vs morrow linked in another PvT 2port thread where whitera (not doing the FE) went for blink stalkers vs 2port shee/marine push. Think that is reasonable here? Obviously it would be delayed by 1gas, would it be too late?. One of my biggest problems with playing defensive is how the banshee can come at me from any side and if I get out of position the terran can move on my natural
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This one went a little better (won this game)
But my opponent i dont think massed as big of a ball and i got the gateways much earlier
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145763.jpg)
I just still dont see how this would defend against that well of a timed ball, i mean 3rax coming at u with stim and conc shells is gonna be hell to defend.
i understand falling back to take minimum damage untill charge is done (which is what i did) but there is only somuch time u can buy with FFs in such a large choke.
But i guess i cant really say much since i practiced this build only 3 times befor i brought it into diamond league.
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one of the strong sides of this build, is having 2 nexus for chrono boosting, in that last game u didn't use ur second nexus at all... Think about it
also, ur Terran Fast Expanded too, wich kinda ruins this tactic, as he has stronger economy than u do with the MULE x2..
wasn't a bad play tho, too bad about the colossi being stuck jaja
Edit: Use ur FFs to avoid terran kite ur zealots, if u FF behind terran army, they will be destroyed by ur zealots.
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EPT
