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On September 01 2010 02:33 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, in my experience, if T also goes FE, you can have some trouble against a bio ball that's the same size as your gateway composition. I haven't played a whole lot of games against a FE T, and I'm not really sure what a good response is. Against a FE T, you will have a significantly stronger army early, so you could apply pressure and try to bust in or delay econ/tech. Alternatively, you could delay gateways in favor of gas knowing T can't pressure well, and rush for HT before he can push you. Another option would be to take advantage of T's early weakness by double-expanding.
I agree, you know for sure they aren't planning on attacking you any time soon, so that changes your mindset from one of massing troops to defend into an offensive or harass type scenario, or as you said take a third expo.
I'd think you would have luck with some early phoenix scv harass if you were planning on going stargates. Another idea would be to get like 5-6 warpgates and draw his troops to the natural to defend or better yet bait him into leaving his base, then sneaking in a warp prism into his main and warping in a bunch of zealots.
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On September 01 2010 04:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 02:33 kcdc wrote:
****
Also, Day9 did feature an idea similar to this build on last nights D9D. Hopefully this will turn more people on to the idea of expanding early in PvT, and that we'll gradually see a shift in the metagame toward a more macro-oriented style. Tee hee, then again, maybe not. The D9D thread is currently filled with, "WTF!?!? DAY9 HAS LOST IT. EXPANDING WILL NEVER WORK!" It's like Day #1 in this thread all over again.
Lol I won't even look cause it'll hurt my eyes.
I'm kind of disappointed Day9 didn't outright mention or refer to this thread. I mean cmon, the evidence and discussion is PRECISELY what he was getting at and he just completely ignored its existence. I kinda feel like he should do a followup on this specific build. You should PM the guy, he probably hasn't got time to read every forum and keep up to date on every thread.
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Steppes is just a horrible, horrible, horrible map though. Let's not judge a strategy based on viability on one crap map.
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Is there a map that doesn't suck for Protoss? I've yet to see one map where you can grab your natural, block off attacks with one or two Force Fields from the only path to it and doesn't have some stupid backdoor into your main.
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On September 01 2010 06:19 Soulforged wrote:
I'll go and test it.
So far I tried this:
1gate core nexus -> 2nd gas-> 2,3gate->robo, cancel gates at ~50% (you actually can not start them at all if CC is on time, so you have a minute to scout it for the cancel), start 2 more gas at nat and twilight ASAP.
Chrono probes and observer, archives->charge->storm for the gas, stay on one gate.
Obs in terran base at about 08:30, here's where problems start:
If they threw down a ton of barracks asap, foregoing factory, the production from those barracks will kick in by 9th minute, add the travel time - about 09:30 timing attack.
If I stop adding probes at 08:30(and it takes a bit longer for obs at larger maps) and get a TON of gateways, up to 8, while making templars and chronoing storm/charge, I still get my stuff too late. There's a whole bunch of gateways incoming for incredibly-sized army at about 10:30, and decent/even with terran reinforcements at ~10:00, but before that it's pretty meh. Enough to hold before that extra production kicked in and stim/combat shield finish, but not enough in that ~30 second window terran's razing your base.
It might help to cancel storm, warp in HT for archon while getting faster gateways and chrono the lone warpgate for HTs instead of chronoing storm, but it's still too damn fragile. Perhaps chronoing immortal is better instead of couple gates, since you can get 1-2 by the time terran army comes, but it takes minerals heavily, unlike HTs - gates are delayed.
However, I don't think I even want ~09:40 storm against FE-ing terran. If he's adding medivacs for his bio, I can feedback those and get an archon. If he's meching, I can only use the storm for storm drops at that point, since attack from a FE-benefetting mech production is later than 10:00.
If it's banshees, I still can feedback/archon, same for raven. I'll probably stick to cancel 3gates -> robo/twilight->obs/charge->3gates->4gas+archives before or after adding gates depending on scout timing, instead.
Non-medivac bio should be possible to handle with charge/FF, couple-medivac bio with feedback/charge/archon, 4 and more medivac-bio should meet storm anyway.
EDIT: with a 1gate core->nexus->robo build it might be possible to forego immortal against the terran(similiar to gate cancel), get the obs inside terran ~20 seconds base earlier, cancel storm/add gates fast enough...problem is, I go for robo instead of 3gates on larger maps, so it also takes longer for obs to fly. Longer for bio to walk, too, but ugh - I'll have to catch a practice partner for this stuff, no doubt.
EDIT2:
A robo-cancel immortal variation could get an obs earliest in terran main by 07:26 on cross-spots on metalopolis. That's probably early enough not to start archives, let alone not to start storm.
However, my robo variation cuts probes for the robo, or risk dying to 3rax even on large maps.
The later-storm variation is still more stable and works even if I did not scout their CC early enough to react.
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On September 01 2010 06:41 Bibdy wrote:
Is there a map that doesn't suck for Protoss? I've yet to see one map where you can grab your natural, block off attacks with one or two Force Fields from the only path to it and doesn't have some stupid backdoor into your main.
I'd say everything but Kulas and Steppes are ok. I really hate obnoxious cliffs..
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On September 01 2010 06:31 Azreal wrote:
kcdc, I played you yesterday, with you using this build vs my FE siege marine push. I remembered playing you by your style, and sure enough, after checking my replays I played you before. We both did the exact same build with the exact same result. In fact, in both games, despite losing, you said you always beat Terran FE, and that if I played you again, I would lose.
I'm not doubting this opening, as it is very strong against standard 1,1,1 and 3 rax Bio pushes, but the problem with P FE vs T FE is you can't get units and T3 (Storm / Col) tech before Terran can get siege (T2) + bio. So on certain maps (Steppes comes to mind) Terran can push and siege your expo safely./
Example:
Morrow vs Huk IEM (Huk responds by double expanding)
This build vs T FE is a different metagame which is largely unexplored and honestly, beside the point of the discussion.
There is definitely no way this build is weak to T FE in the general sense, but I'm sure it requires a good response by P. Remember in BW how complex the 2 base metagame was? I don't think we know anything yet about the 2 base metagame in PvT yet. I would hardly make any claims on it yet.
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I saw white-ra do this against brat_ok, you can find it at his website or watch huskys cast of it. Its the pylo the pylon game. Brat_ok does banshees out of one port but he expands instead of commiting to a 2port bancheese.
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On September 01 2010 06:31 Azreal wrote:
kcdc, I played you yesterday, with you using this build vs my FE siege marine push. I remembered playing you by your style, and sure enough, after checking my replays I played you before. We both did the exact same build with the exact same result. In fact, in both games, despite losing, you said you always beat Terran FE, and that if I played you again, I would lose.
I'm not doubting this opening, as it is very strong against standard 1,1,1 and 3 rax Bio pushes, but the problem with P FE vs T FE is you can't get units and T3 (Storm / Col) tech before Terran can get siege (T2) + bio. So on certain maps (Steppes comes to mind) Terran can push and siege your expo safely./
Example:
Morrow vs Huk IEM (Huk responds by double expanding)
I believe that was the game on Steppes where you went siege-expand into bunkering the middle with a shit ton of tanks. I agree--tanks are incredibly hard to stop on Steppes because they just don't have to move very far to hit the nat. P doesn't have a good ground-based way to compete with tanks right now--even with an econ advantage--but that will change with the tank nerf against zealots.
Anyway, I needed to stop you from setting up bunkers in the middle, and I didn't get that done. Upon seeing tanks, I should have set up my first defense in the low ground instead of on the high ground at my nat to make you work a little harder for that position.
Anyway, the FE was definitely not the reason I lost. That critical point when that game was lost was pretty late--I would have had a smaller army w/o the FE by that time. GG tho. Maybe I'll have better luck next time.
Siege tanks are really strong against any Protoss build on small maps right now. It's kind of a moot point whether this build loses to siege tanks ATM, since zealots are about to become roughly one million times better against tanks.
Also, I don't know why I would have said that I always beat Terran FE. Maybe I was on a losing streak and was being rude cause I was playing shitty, but I definitely don't always beat anything....except maybe 3-rax. I almost always beat 3-rax.
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So... as a result of KCDC, I've been stuck playing 2 base vs 2 base TvP all day.
My tips for Protoss:
-Without 100+ effective APM, Templar cannot be used effectively without severely impairing your micro and macro. I have yet to lose to Templar because they slipped somehow and even if they end up spending their mineral build up, I have had a couple production cycles so my army is probably balled up and good to go, while theirs is warping in and still consolidating.
-If we are on 2 bases, you will likely lose if you don't get a tech advantage AND USE IT, since you can't get an army size advantage.
-Rushing to a fast Colossi in response to T FE and then taking a quick 3rd seems strongest, because otherwise you can't stop the T's 1/1 timing push at about 9-10 minutes
I actually really like P FEing, cause I can macro up and rush upgrades to hammer any attempts at a 3rd without Colossi. 900ish (maybe a bit less) Diamond Terran, but I have yet to feel in a bad spot despite them getting that 2nd down a tiny bit faster than mine.
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Updated OP with replay of 14-gate against proxy reaper cheese.
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http://screplays.com/replays/crosswind/7379
I'm having trouble with that particular push. Would like criticism on the replay. Bonus points for non-obvious (Don't lose your scouting probe like a moron) commentary.
-Cross
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1050 (diamond) toss here. Tried a similar FE build against terran on metalopolis. It is absultely a viable build. The first push of the terran was pretty scary but I was able to beat him (pulled probes but that was not even necessary). the game went smooth from there on with a large army lead for myself. My tech was really late tough.
Did it later again on blistering sands. He hadn't seen I FE. It was an easy victory.
This strat is certainly viable (maybe not on all maps) and I recommend to all toss players to try it.
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i would love to see a replay of this build against a bio/hellion push, if u don't mind trying it :D
oh, and btw, would this strat work in PvP ? i'm kinda tired of the forced 4gate build on that MU
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On September 02 2010 05:40 kasuya wrote:
i would love to see a replay of this build against a bio/hellion push, if u don't mind trying it :D
oh, and btw, would this strat work in PvP ? i'm kinda tired of the forced 4gate build on that MU
Nope. Works vs T, sucks vs P, and can work vs Z depending what Z does. Against aggressive lings or all-in roahces, you'll lose. There are better ways to FE in PvZ in my opinion.
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<3 kcdc
This opening has completely re-inspired my interest in PvT. I've done about a dozen custom games with friends and also used it 2v2s. Its just so much fun! I also have a profound respect for chronoboost now that I did not have before. I'm so impressed I'm playing with the idea of making a 3rd nexus in my main! (jk... but CB is <3).
I feel completely safe against 1base Terrans. Its absolutely unreal to me how many gateway units double chronoboosts can push out off 3 warpgates. The hardest part is making pylons! Hell tonight I was watching gretorps stream against a FE toss and he did a marine ghost timing attack that appeared absolutely deadly... and got smashed without even probes coming to help.
Sure I've lost games with this opening, but I have yet to fall to early pressure - just micro/tactical mistakes mid/late game.
Thank you!
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How exactly do you beat this build? I've been losing on ladder against this 
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On September 02 2010 14:38 frogmelter wrote:How exactly do you beat this build? I've been losing on ladder against this
Good question!
Here's what I've been doing:
-If I open 3 rax (which is pretty standard bio) in some variant or another:
I push if it's an early stim aggression build. This push is not an allin and not designed to end the game. However I can often force some probes to pull, do some damage, kill off sentries and some stalkers, and force P to react to me. I just go straight to expansion if it's a late push build, such as a ghost opening.
The end result is me being slightly "behind" protoss either way, but that's ok. 3 rax is a poor opening because of this.
From here on out I add on 2 factories for hellions/tanks, get siege/ignitor, add a port for viking/medivac, get some upgrades going, and look at doing a big midgame push as toss is trying to take his 3rd.
-If I open factory, I like to cut some marines and take my expansion as soon as possible off the factory. I don't get a starport early. That CC has to start very early to keep an even eco to P. Usually 1 tank then CC is pretty solid. If P tries to be aggressive in response you can bunker and you should be fine. From there I add another factory for hellions, and a bunch of starports. I do lots of hellion harass/drops while building a nice marines tank banshee army (heavy on the banshees), and I just harass, take a 3rd or push, and generally play to take a macro lead. Often BCs/viking come into play late.
These aren't going to net you wins automatically, but they're good ways to stay in the game and move it to a solid 2 base vs 2 base scenario. The last thing you want to do vs this build is be continuously aggressive off 1 base, because you will be demolished. The best counter is to take an early expansion and hope to gain a lead in the midgame.
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EPT
