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im a 800 diamond toss and i actually do this build without scouting
9pylon, 13gate, no scouting with probe
i know your thinking wth, but heres what i do. when my 13gate finishes i immediately make a zealot, cyber core, and another probe, and i chronoboost the zealot, and i dont have to cut any probes because i didnt scout
i chronoboost out 2 zealots before the cyber core is finished, and the cyber core finishes exactly when my 2 zealots finish and i make a stalker at that time
i actually run around the map scouting out start locations with my first zealot. this comes out so fast the only thing that could kill my zealot is a super fast reaper or conc marauder build by the terran that requires him to cut scv's. in that case i lost a 100min zealot (who cares) and my 13gate stalker plus extra zealot plus superior economy plus chronoboost on gateway for more stalkers beats back any reaper or marauder fast rush
so if my enemy didnt go some type of 9rax super fast reaper or conc marauder, that means my first zealot will scout out his starting location. i will be able to scout if his rax has a tech lab and if he built a fast factory. this is all the info i need. my zealot comes back fine and i got an extra 100+ minerals by not scouting (not scouting can really pay off about this much)
i do this all while not cutting probes and when i get out my 13gate stalker it is better at fighting off any super fast reaper so even though im not scouting a super fast reaper i still get out the 13gate stalker faster than your 14gate
now i am sitting at slightly more economy and units than a 14gate and i already scouted my enemy and i proceed to do the fast expand build normally
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I scout at 13gate now, and even on last try, unless they make an unreasonably fast wall, I get to see if they made a gas, or not. That's important for spotting both no gas CC and no gas 4-6 barracks marine all-in, both require quite a bit of adaptation.
Thanks to Nah's idea of cutting probes for faster gateways/nexus, it is possible to synchronize the nexus finishing with having 3 warpgates, as early as 06:30. Which, pretty much, nails 3rax builds. And it gets obs in terran base by 07:50, which is also awesome - you can go obs, charge, obs, and still be good against cloaked banshees; yet the charge can be done by 09:20, making any medivac action easier to defend.
Due to probe cut it is a bit weakier than usual against a gas->float-CC that I can't detect, because the option of cancelling the extra gates is almost gone, and I've already cut those ~3-4 probes. However, it's about equal with terran's scv count, and chrono boost + army advantage should be enough to make it at least even.
Seems like a good option for Steps of War-like situation, where terrans'd rather 3rax or marauder/marine/helion, than get a CC in response.
So now I'm doing a 06:30 3warpgates on close spots, 06:55 3warpgates on average distance, and 07:10 immortal at long distance maps.
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On September 02 2010 15:17 Soulforged wrote:
I scout at 13gate now, and even on last try, unless they make an unreasonably fast wall, I get to see if they made a gas, or not. That's important for spotting both no gas CC and no gas 4-6 barracks marine all-in, both require quite a bit of adaptation.
Thanks to Nah's idea of cutting probes for faster gateways/nexus, it is possible to synchronize the nexus finishing with having 3 warpgates, as early as 06:30. Which, pretty much, nails 3rax builds. And it gets obs in terran base by 07:50, which is also awesome - you can go obs, charge, obs, and still be good against cloaked banshees; yet the charge can be done by 09:20, making any medivac action easier to defend.
Due to probe cut it is a bit weakier than usual against a gas->float-CC that I can't detect, because the option of cancelling the extra gates is almost gone, and I've already cut those ~3-4 probes. However, it's about equal with terran's scv count, and chrono boost + army advantage should be enough to make it at least even.
Seems like a good option for Steps of War-like situation, where terrans'd rather 3rax or marauder/marine/helion, than get a CC in response.
So now I'm doing a 06:30 3warpgates on close spots, 06:55 3warpgates on average distance, and 07:10 immortal at long distance maps.
Yes, cutting workers to get your 3 gates up at the same time as warpgate research finishes can be critical against early stim timings. The probe cuts will put you slightly behind a FE Terran however, as even if his CC lands a little later, he'll have as many or more workers as you, and he'll have mules. Still, it's a very safe way to play. I make this decision based on scouting as well as rush distance. If scouting tells me he's going for an early all-in on a short rush distance, I'll continue cutting some workers to support 3 chronoboosted warpgates. Cutting a few workers to get an extra zealot or two is infinitely better than pulling and losing 5+ probes.
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Hmm how would you defend against a early Marine/Raven/Banshee push? My experience against Protoss FE builds is that I just drop a PDD on top of you're FE, and just nuke it down. Most of the time you won't have enough stalkers to engage the PDD area, and if you do engage its usually a one sided battle.
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On September 03 2010 02:28 Edso wrote:
Hmm how would you defend against a early Marine/Raven/Banshee push? My experience against Protoss FE builds is that I just drop a PDD on top of you're FE, and just nuke it down. Most of the time you won't have enough stalkers to engage the PDD area, and if you do engage its usually a one sided battle.
#1 - a marine/raven/banshee push can't be early.
#2 - a FE allows you to get A LOT of units by the time that push hits.
#3 - as is always the case in PvT against ravens, engage in the middle of the map to force the PDD in a useless spot and then retreat.
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-Well yea you're right about it can't be extremely early
--I'm still not entirely convinced you will have enough stalkers to deal with the push that usually come around the 10 min mark. (At least from my experience with FE Toss) Maybe that's just a discrepancy of the skill level between the 800 toss and the 1k toss.
-Yea in theory the best way to deal with PDD is to engage away from you're base so you can fall back.
Solid build tho, looks like you got most of the bases covered.
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I tried this build today, but i only had enough time to play against the very hard AI and compare it to other builds. It fared just as well as the 3gate robo build against a MnM rush and from the looks of it i could beat Korean style Marine/banshee even if i didn't see it coming. I was pumping out plenty of gateway units at the 9 minute mark and i had so much money on two bases i was researching upgrades and was still able to cycle 6 warpgates nonstop. i think this has alot of potential and the extra chronoboost means that a good player could catch up in technology and upgrades easily. just my 0.02$, i really wanna see how this fares against marine cheese and other rushes.
On September 03 2010 03:46 Edso wrote:
--I'm still not entirely convinced you will have enough stalkers to deal with the push that usually come around the 10 min mark. (At least from my experience with FE Toss) Maybe that's just a discrepancy of the skill level between the 800 toss and the 1k toss.
At the 10 minute mark in my testing i had 8 stalkers and 5 zealots; and this was after losing 1 immortal, 2 zealots, and 3 stalkers to the very Hard AIs marauder push. I know testing vs the AI is not the best way to do it, but i still think it proves that you can hold off most rushes.
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On September 03 2010 03:46 Edso wrote:
-Well yea you're right about it can't be extremely early
--I'm still not entirely convinced you will have enough stalkers to deal with the push that usually come around the 10 min mark. (At least from my experience with FE Toss) Maybe that's just a discrepancy of the skill level between the 800 toss and the 1k toss.
-Yea in theory the best way to deal with PDD is to engage away from you're base so you can fall back.
Solid build tho, looks like you got most of the bases covered.
You easily have enough units to deal with ANY 1 base aggression. It is still possible to make the wrong units, but a balanced mix should fare nicely vs anything and you can easily have obs up to see how to adjust.
The build is pretty damn hard to beat with a rush, and would require an awkward special timing to do so.
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On September 03 2010 03:46 Edso wrote:
-Well yea you're right about it can't be extremely early
--I'm still not entirely convinced you will have enough stalkers to deal with the push that usually come around the 10 min mark. (At least from my experience with FE Toss) Maybe that's just a discrepancy of the skill level between the 800 toss and the 1k toss.
-Yea in theory the best way to deal with PDD is to engage away from you're base so you can fall back.
Solid build tho, looks like you got most of the bases covered.
I've faced 1-base marine-banshee attacks a lot and I usually win. The one thing I'd like to add is that a key to beating marine-banshee that a lot of people overlook is zealots. A lot of Protoss players get their observer into their opponents base and go, "Oh shit! Banshees and marines! I better make a shit ton of stalkers so I can hit those banshees!" and they forget that the big threat is actually the marines. If you don't have zealots, your stalkers just fall insanely quickly and you're done. With a 50-50 mix of zealots and stalkers (and a sentry or 2 for guardian shield if you're feeling fancy), you can clean up the marines pretty quickly and then reinforce with a round of stalkers if you're out of AA to finish off the banshees. A handful of red banshees isn't very scary when you can reinforce 6 stalkers every 30 seconds.
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Used this FE build with fair success winning 60% of my past 5-6 games against T.
This game in particular i just got rocked hard because the Terran rushed with too many MM units. Does anyone know what to do against that?
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145439.jpg)
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frick this build is becoming too popular. Terrans are learning to deal with it =___=.
I have lots of variations of this build up my sleeve now - all centering around what to throw down while cutting probes directly after the nexus. 4 gates - insta transition to aggression versus a FE terran. 3 gates 1 citadel - fast charge fast templar for a mainly chargelot templar army. 3 gate 1 robo - fast colossus tech and anti-cloak banshee. I don't find I am too far behind the terran player even though I cut probes for 1 more building that what kdcd does - yes I'm behind an FE terran but the faster tech makes up for it IMO.
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On September 03 2010 09:13 jkdblind wrote:Used this FE build with fair success winning 60% of my past 5-6 games against T. This game in particular i just got rocked hard because the Terran rushed with too many MM units. Does anyone know what to do against that?
I think you could have had more units when he attacked if you practiced this build, I compared a replay of mine and i had an immortal out at the same time he was walking up to your natural. Also steppes of war is a terrible, terrible, map. You have to understand that his attack came way earlier because of the ridiculous rush distance.
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what have people found with regards to
(1) getting a single sentry as your 3rd unit for guardian shield vs bio pushes and
(2) getting hallucinated phoenix to confirm when T prevents scouting (i.e. 3 depots at ramp with 3 marines showing)
in the latter case you really have no idea how you should respond without hallucinate but it does cut into your unit count a bit.
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@ palanq
I usually get a sentry as my 4th unit. Because it's a gas intensive unit it helps me get the expo up super quick while maintaining constant unit production. Getting it earlier would require a 2nd gas as I exactly have 100 gas by the time my first 2 stalkers finish (i use chronoboost twice). I've found a sentry really usefull agianst marine pushes and even though it's not the greatest against marauder kiting early on (too slow and too low range) I think it's still fine there because it allows for better resource usage (ie. a gas dump so you can get your nexus and 2nd to 4th gateway faster).
Hallucination is in no way worth it though, it costs me too much and takes quite some time to research, especially as warpgates is just way more important so you can't start it fast. A robo bay + observer is a MUCH better way to get intel because obs also provide detection, last longer and the robo bay itself is always useful for immortals.
I generally use a minimum amount of sentries in PvT in general because I find templars or getting charge etc. asap just a better way to spend gas.
Also question @ soulforged, what is the EXACT buildorder your using at the moment? just out curiosity, wondering what timings you got going for your gateways and warpgate tech.
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On September 03 2010 09:13 jkdblind wrote:Used this FE build with fair success winning 60% of my past 5-6 games against T. This game in particular i just got rocked hard because the Terran rushed with too many MM units. Does anyone know what to do against that?
You should try to practice playing the build a few times before blindly laddering with it. When you play any kind of early expansion build, you will need much better execution of the build order to to squeeze out as many defensive units as possible. So here are some specific things you could do:
1) Build your first pylon closer to your nexus to minimize loss of mining time
2) Don't stop making probes so many times early in the game, so build your gate on 13 and scout. To avoid supply caps, you don't need to start your 2nd pylon until 16.
3) Build a zealot while your core is warping in.
4) You waited a while before putting 3 workers on gas. By mining gas earlier, when your core finishes, you start a stalker and warpgate research immediately! Finishing warpgate earlier will help your unit production a bit.
5) Move around your nexus rally point instead of leaving it on the same mineral the whole time. This can get you the few extra minerals you need to squeeze out one more zealot.
6) Unless you scout a fast expo, make sure you build your 2nd and 3rd gates before the robo.
7) Spend your nexus energy chronoing your 3 warpgates instead of nexuses if you know a rush is coming. And unless your opponent went fast expo as well, you know a rush is coming!
All of these things seem really minor, but when you add up all the extra minerals you could've mined by doing a more efficient early build order, you could easily get a few more zealots out by the time their first attack comes. And when they attack that early, having even 1 extra zealot increases your army size by 20%! So what do all of these little optimizations result in? The attack came at 7:30, when you had 4 stalkers, a zealot, and a sentry against 7 marauders and 6 marines. To compare, I watched a replay where I played a PvT with the fast expo build with all of the little optimizations I suggested for you. At 7:30, I had 6 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a sentry, with 3 warpgates up and 2 of them in the chrono-boosted state. Just by tightening up my build order a bit, I was able to have an army twice as big as yours by the same time!
As for microing against the terran 3 rax push, you want to have your zealots in front, tanking shots and getting kited while your stalkers in the back do damage. They can't focus your stalkers because they'll die to zealot dps, and their kiting is a lot less effective when stalkers are shooting at their units.
In summary, executing the build order better and tightening up your timings will give you a lot more units than you might expect, and it should be enough to hold off terran early aggression. Yes it's much harder to execute than w/e build terran does for a 3 rax rush, but when you can't force field the ramp as a crutch, you need to execute the build well to compensate.
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hey guys. i´ve been trying this strat out with some nice results, although i´m still not 100% sure about my BO after they nexus comes out and how to hold some one base rax pushes. could someone who did this alot pls post a replay pack doing the same BO against a few different one base plays by terrans?
thx alot
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thanks Gecko & iamke55.
Good advice. All are interesting points. I knew it was possible for me to make a few more units out, but I thought it wasn't really possible to match the T's force.
What you said iamke55 makes sense. I'm taking notes and gonna apply it in my next games.
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On September 03 2010 09:23 t3tsubo wrote:
frick this build is becoming too popular. Terrans are learning to deal with it =___=.
I have lots of variations of this build up my sleeve now - all centering around what to throw down while cutting probes directly after the nexus. 4 gates - insta transition to aggression versus a FE terran. 3 gates 1 citadel - fast charge fast templar for a mainly chargelot templar army. 3 gate 1 robo - fast colossus tech and anti-cloak banshee. I don't find I am too far behind the terran player even though I cut probes for 1 more building that what kdcd does - yes I'm behind an FE terran but the faster tech makes up for it IMO.
Just curious: what is Terran's response?
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This build + a generally more macro style (ala day9) is starting to feel standard. Really need to figure out a safe FE in pvp now!
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Terran's response to FE:
1) Expand
2) Kill you
Okay so more specifically
1a) Terran can get effective saturation at his natural faster because of the double Mule strength, so unless your FE is ahead of his by >1 real minute aka 1.5 game minutes, you are going to be at a slight economic disadvantage unless you do damage. As such, you need to try to eek out a quick 3rd or do some harass.
2a) A quick MMM push with +1 attack and Stim can absolutely roll this. I think most of the success you are having is because people are not yet incorporating fast Upgrades into MMM pushes. I have started to open 3 Rax, +1 Attack, with just a handful of Medivacs and I haven't lost much to any Protoss who aren't massing hard on Gateway units.
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EPT
