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It's been a while since I've looked in on this thread. I've already posted my positive feelings about the build, but I need to speak out against the "it doesn't work at all" complainers. Have you guys watched the replays? I feel like you should see it work and then you'll be fine. Once you do it once, it just clicks. Myself, I haven't watched them, because it's worked for me the majority of the time since trying it. Every game I play with it I learn something I can do better, and I feel very confident now.
To those who insist you can't be aggressive, I say you're flat wrong. On Steppes of War I win most of my games with this build by attacking them first. I chrono boost two zealots, then two stalkers (as always), and when the first stalker is half way done, I send out the zealots. This way the stalker catches up about the time they get to their ramp. Your two zealots give you vision and tank the first hits, and start beating up a depot. I usually start shooting any marines in range with the stalker. At this point, the terran usually has a marauder and a few marines at best (with a second marauder coming soon usually), allowing you to get some substantial damage in with your stalker. If they are trying to hit your stalker, back him off and start shooting the depot. If you can break in here, you can often just kill their guys with some stalkers left in the red. This is because your second stalker has arrived by now. (Against reaper rushes, your guys moving out should see a reaper squad, and your 2nd stalker pops out to handle them if they get by. You should probably win at this point on the first attack.) At that point, you've already succeeded in trading zealots for a chunk of some upcoming MM push, and it's your choice whether to stay and try to kill things or just back off.
During this quick attack on maps with fast rush distances, you have the option of putting up more gateways instead of a nexus if your attack is successful. Start chrono'ing warp and you can just come back with a 3-4 gate and smash them.
Really you need to interact with your opponent. Look at the top of their ramp with a suicide probe, or a zealot. Bring your army with a sentry and taunt them to come down and get split. The more you poke them, the more they question if they are in the driver seat. Which very quickly, they are not, 2 > 1. And chrono your gateways, even when they're warpgates!
This build is great practice for and rewards highly macro, micro, and multitask.
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On August 31 2010 11:37 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 07:29 frogmelter wrote:
Wow I just lost to you kcdc using this build
Well played and gg Ha, was that on on LT? gg, bro.
Yeah I got trashed pretty badly. Was confused when i scanned and saw no robo/stargate/twilight.
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On August 31 2010 12:47 Reportinghacks wrote:
uhh, these aren't replays looks like links to map hacks or something.
I dont know whats going on here but this is the second thread ive seen this guy post the exact same thing.
maybe im overreacting but...
SOUND THE ALARM!!! !!!
serisly though mods check this guy out he might need a permaban
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I used this build 3x today (well i didn't copy it, but I FE'd sometime around core)
Won all my matches. Effectiveness confirmed at ~700 diamond.
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Today's D9 daily had a build quite similar to this. I really think it's viable on does well on most non-steppes of war maps. I've been using it a lot.
One thing that worries me tho is that the Zealot nerf might make this quite less viable :/
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On August 31 2010 14:36 ToxNub wrote:
I used this build 3x today (well i didn't copy it, but I FE'd sometime around core)
Won all my matches. Effectiveness confirmed at ~700 diamond.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/540705373
Effectiveness confirmed at 1400 diamond as well. Has any of the doubters actually come up with a strategy that beats this build instead of spewing the usual nonsense with no evidence?
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Sorry, I can't see how this would work against a Terran that knows what he's doing..
It just seems mathmatically impossible that you could spend so much money on a FE and keep up with a Terran 3 rax. even if you have 4 gateways, the money T has spent on units will own the money you get from FE. It would work well against a Terran going 1/1/1 or something, but against a good Terran player going 3 rax, I just can't imagine it working. You'd need some bloody brilliant Micro, and the Terran would still have to stuff up.
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On August 31 2010 15:31 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 14:36 ToxNub wrote:
I used this build 3x today (well i didn't copy it, but I FE'd sometime around core)
Won all my matches. Effectiveness confirmed at ~700 diamond. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/540705373Effectiveness confirmed at 1400 diamond as well. Has any of the doubters actually come up with a strategy that beats this build instead of spewing the usual nonsense with no evidence?
My friend did a 4-5 rax + reactor marine mass timing push with stim. That was... Painful, mostly because I didn't see it coming.
Heh.
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On August 31 2010 15:44 Homerclese wrote:
Sorry, I can't see how this would work against a Terran that knows what he's doing..
It just seems mathmatically impossible that you could spend so much money on a FE and keep up with a Terran 3 rax. even if you have 4 gateways, the money T has spent on units will own the money you get from FE. It would work well against a Terran going 1/1/1 or something, but against a good Terran player going 3 rax, I just can't imagine it working. You'd need some bloody brilliant Micro, and the Terran would still have to stuff up.
+ Show Spoiler +Go fucking watch the replays like everyone's been saying
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I'm play T but FE strats are always interesting. It seems stalkers are integral to the defence of your expansion. I'v been playing a 1/1/1 Raven opening against toss which has a strong push with a couple of tanks, marines and a raven. I have a feeling this push would inflict quite a lot of damage as I have found that the correct use of a PDD can be can be extremely effective in nullifying stalkers. Would this be enough to win outright?
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Well, I have, and the Terran in the video's I did watch didn't do too well Macro and Micro wise. I'm just saying that against T that do that 3 rax opening flawlessly, this strat could have problems. 2 stalkers and a zealot at the 5:30 mark isn't enough to hold that expo against a decent 3 rax opener. as I said, not without quality Micro.
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On August 31 2010 17:33 Homerclese wrote:Well, I have, and the Terran in the video's I did watch didn't do too well Macro and Micro wise. I'm just saying that against T that do that 3 rax opening flawlessly, this strat could have problems. 2 stalkers and a zealot at the 5:30 mark isn't enough to hold that expo against a decent 3 rax opener. as I said, not without quality Micro.
That goes both ways. The terran didnt play perfectly, neither did the toss (getting warp gate upgrade waay late on Xelnaga Cavers for example). OP has presented fairly high level empiric results to support his argument that this build works, all you've done is say is that this doesn't work against good terrans, without any support what so ever. Your word isn't enough, unless someone comes up with a high level replay of how to crush this build its safe to say that this is a solid build order.
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That goes both ways. The terran didnt play perfectly, neither did the toss (getting warp gate upgrade waay late on Xelnaga Cavers for example). OP has presented fairly high level empiric results to support his argument that this build works, all you've done is say is that this doesn't work against good terrans, without any support what so ever. Your word isn't enough, unless someone comes up with a high level replay of how to crush this build its safe to say that this is a solid build order.
True, and until I have versed this build on the ladder, I won't have a replay to show, so my words mean very little, and if I come up against it and lose, I will eat my words. I'm not saying it won't work against good terrans, It just seems as though if you had 2 identically skilled players, one doing the 3 rax rauder and 1 doing the FE, the FE could be in trouble.
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On August 31 2010 17:45 Homerclese wrote:
True, and until I have versed this build on the ladder, I won't have a replay to show, so my words mean very little, and if I come up against it and lose, I will eat my words. I'm not saying it won't work against good terrans, It just seems as though if you had 2 identically skilled players, one doing the 3 rax rauder and 1 doing the FE, the FE could be in trouble.
Well, during my development of my variation of this build I've played against a similiarly ranked (~1100) terran practice partner. For about 6-7 games I've specificly asked him to do a 3rax all-in, and I think I only lost two(where I 9scouted, took 2nd gas before 2nd gate, and had bad micro).
Because I asked him to do that, we could test out the situation where the terran is adding the two extra raxes before I've started the nexus, thus being the "blind all-in" situation. I could defend, and when he microed properly and I did not I could still defend by pulling probes. Even if I lost 6 probes on micro mistakes and when he pulled ~4 scvs for the attack, I still had about 4-6 more probes by the end. And the nexus.
I would love to find a way to handle a no-gas marine allin, though  .
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Well, during my development of my variation of this build I've played against a similiarly ranked (~1100) terran practice partner. For about 6-7 games I've specificly asked him to do a 3rax all-in, and I think I only lost two(where I 9scouted, took 2nd gas before 2nd gate, and had bad micro). Because I asked him to do that, we could test out the situation where the terran is adding the two extra raxes before I've started the nexus, thus being the "blind all-in" situation. I could defend, and when he microed properly and I did not I could still defend by pulling probes. Even if I lost 6 probes on micro mistakes and when he pulled ~4 scvs for the attack, I still had about 4-6 more probes by the end. And the nexus. I would love to find a way to handle a no-gas marine allin, though .
Well if that's the case my word's are for supper :D
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2010 15:05 CynanMachae wrote:
Today's D9 daily had a build quite similar to this. I really think it's viable on does well on most non-steppes of war maps. I've been using it a lot.
One thing that worries me tho is that the Zealot nerf might make this quite less viable :/
It works on steppes aswell unless its vs 3 racks, If you manage to keep ur probe alive long enough and u see 2nd gas or bunker you can FE safely, you should constantly poke his front with probe, like once per minute to see if ur unit count is similar, you can be behind by about ~5 cause if you see him moving out u'll get that 5more in time. About zealot nerf it's about 2,5secs of real time, I don't see how it's goin to affect this fast expo build, since your army will be mostly stalkers, only few zealots to tank marauders - at least until u get 5th gate up
+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2010 17:29 frantic.cactus wrote:
I'm play T but FE strats are always interesting. It seems stalkers are integral to the defence of your expansion. I'v been playing a 1/1/1 Raven opening against toss which has a strong push with a couple of tanks, marines and a raven. I have a feeling this push would inflict quite a lot of damage as I have found that the correct use of a PDD can be can be extremely effective in nullifying stalkers. Would this be enough to win outright?
Nope, this build deals with 1/1/1 easily, before u get 2 tanks and raven 5 gates are already up, so it's np to fend off.
I enclosed some replays on previous page but seems like nobody watched em -.-
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On August 31 2010 18:20 Porneus wrote:
I enclosed some replays on previous page but seems like nobody watched em -.-
Ppl are to busy jumping directly to the last page to claim it does not work.
scnr
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On August 31 2010 18:38 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:20 Porneus wrote:
I enclosed some replays on previous page but seems like nobody watched em -.- Ppl are to busy jumping directly to the last page to claim it does not work. scnr
This is a serious poster :D
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@ soulforged
Against the marine no gas all in he can't be having stim so the key is to use stalker kiting to the fullest before you engage. Guardian shield also helps tons in keeping your stalkers/zealots survive longer.
I see your preference is to scout quite lot so you can afford a faster 2nd gas etc but for scouting something like a marine all-in it may be a bit late.
I do this FE build with a 13 gate scout, which is generally enough to sneak your probe in so you can see the amount of gas he is taking etc. which i still find important to know if im facing banshee's or something else. The method of running a stalker up the ramp to see the army makeup isn't foolproof as the risk of losing the stalker to a marauder with shells or just not seeing enough (ie. only seeing a bunch of marines) is too high imo.
Starting with 1 zealot then 2 stalkers then 1 sentry you got some early stalkers to deal some damage to a marine all-in on their way over and a reasonably fast sentry helps enormously with guardian shield which is just critical against marines imo. I think it's important anyway to make 1 early sentry in this build as it is a mineral low unit allowing you to expand even faster and guardian shield is good on all occasions. Against kiting marauders you can exactly keep your guardian shield over your zealots while chasing him letting you kite a fair bit longer.
Against a mass marine with scv pull push it's impossible to keep the nexus I think but if you scout this in time you should be able to cancel the nexus (again, the importance of forward stalkers against a no gas build). If you cancel the nexus and keep your ramp with your sentry (which should be able to cast 2 force fields and you can warp in another), I think you can followup with quick colossi to punish his marine build. Afterall if he went very late gas he cant ever get vikings & marauders in time to deal with that, despite you losing the nexus (him pulling scv's costs him about the same as your nexus even if you didn't get to cancel in time).
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EPT
