EPT
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[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 13
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Porneus
Poland68 Posts
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twopint32oz
United States14 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 29 2010 02:31 twopint32oz wrote: Would the upcoming patch nerf to zealots make this less viable? It might make it a bit tougher in general vs T. My PvT fights are almost always near pylons because I often find that my first batch of zealots will get wiped out, but I can reinforce with more zealots quickly enough that my stalkers don't die. MM seems a little more efficient, but P has an unbelievable ability to reinforce with more waves of zealots to tank. Adding 5 seconds between waves will hurt in general. I don't think those 5 seconds are going to be a huge deal in the early game tho as I find I can through the early game with mostly stalkers. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia981 Posts
I'd like to rise a question of a proper follow-up for the build. What I'm doing currently is, if they 3raxed me, get an immortal(so that I can resume probe production by skipping a warpgate wave), otherwise 2 observers. Starting twilight after council and chronoing charge, if they did not take CC as 1st obs, cutting probes and going for 5gate zealot warp. Depending on obs, if they're getting ghosts and medivac, I add archives with next 200 gas after charge, but if they're going for MMM attack, which can get a good count faster, i'm warping sentries/zealots asap. If they FE'd, i break rocks while chronoing probes and starting archives and two more gas. Then I add up to 7 gates while getting sentries off gas, transfer probes and chrono gates to defend the massive push. Usually if I'm too greedy I die, have to find the balance I guess. My usage of HTs vs a 1base tech attack is to get feedback asap and get the ghost if lucky, or simply reduce energy to prevent kiting. No way to get storm on time unless you skipped/delayed something as crucial as obs or charge. However, I'm wondering if getting stargate after charge and chronoing phoenix would work. They still kill raven/banshee, can lift tanks - and if it's a MMM attack, you can kill the medivacs and lift some maradeurs. Phoenix would delay additional gateways(4th/5th), but they kick in faster than HT and are more mobile; you also don't need a 3rd gas with getting zealot/phoenix. I don't think they'd be a good follow to a terran who's got his CC(they have more stuff, attack later and can get vikings - HTs are a stronger choice), but if it's a one base all in perhaps they would do good? And if you misscouted and it's actually a ghost push, there's still a chance to lift the ghost - phoenix move much faster than a HT, if terran did hit them with EMP it's still a wasted EMP, and they still can attack the medivacs. And if they kick in too late in good count, perhaps skipping twilight altogether if they did not CC? I usually get council before obs can see them on backdoor CC maps, and probe sees CC even before that on front CC maps. | ||
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Porneus
Poland68 Posts
On August 29 2010 02:39 kcdc wrote: It might make it a bit tougher in general vs T. My PvT fights are almost always near pylons because I often find that my first batch of zealots will get wiped out, but I can reinforce with more zealots quickly enough that my stalkers don't die. MM seems a little more efficient, but P has an unbelievable ability to reinforce with more waves of zealots to tank. Adding 5 seconds between waves will hurt in general. I don't think those 5 seconds are going to be a huge deal in the early game tho as I find I can through the early game with mostly stalkers. It's 5 seconds in game on normal speed, so on faster - which is "normal" speed for all games it's about 2,5sec, it's really barely any difference + Show Spoiler + On August 29 2010 06:37 Soulforged wrote: Same here, I'm usually making 3-4 stalkers + 2zealots early on, and as far as warp tech, 5seconds is just a bit more probes pulled. I'd like to rise a question of a proper follow-up for the build. What I'm doing currently is, if they 3raxed me, get an immortal(so that I can resume probe production by skipping a warpgate wave), otherwise 2 observers. Starting twilight after council and chronoing charge, if they did not take CC as 1st obs, cutting probes and going for 5gate zealot warp. Depending on obs, if they're getting ghosts and medivac, I add archives with next 200 gas after charge, but if they're going for MMM attack, which can get a good count faster, i'm warping sentries/zealots asap. If they FE'd, i break rocks while chronoing probes and starting archives and two more gas. Then I add up to 7 gates while getting sentries off gas, transfer probes and chrono gates to defend the massive push. Usually if I'm too greedy I die, have to find the balance I guess. My usage of HTs vs a 1base tech attack is to get feedback asap and get the ghost if lucky, or simply reduce energy to prevent kiting. No way to get storm on time unless you skipped/delayed something as crucial as obs or charge. However, I'm wondering if getting stargate after charge and chronoing phoenix would work. They still kill raven/banshee, can lift tanks - and if it's a MMM attack, you can kill the medivacs and lift some maradeurs. Phoenix would delay additional gateways(4th/5th), but they kick in faster than HT and are more mobile; you also don't need a 3rd gas with getting zealot/phoenix. I don't think they'd be a good follow to a terran who's got his CC(they have more stuff, attack later and can get vikings - HTs are a stronger choice), but if it's a one base all in perhaps they would do good? And if you misscouted and it's actually a ghost push, there's still a chance to lift the ghost - phoenix move much faster than a HT, if terran did hit them with EMP it's still a wasted EMP, and they still can attack the medivacs. And if they kick in too late in good count, perhaps skipping twilight altogether if they did not CC? I usually get council before obs can see them on backdoor CC maps, and probe sees CC even before that on front CC maps. About phonixes, they're super effective if t gets banshee/marine combo, they shut down any probe harass and banshees just melt. About being greedy with push well my method against that is to leave base when storm is about 50%, warp in 2-3 HT and go, if you lose push, 3 storms + some zeal/stalker force which u will warp in as he approaches, will be more than enough to fend off push. Vs ghosts it's just much safer to get 1-2 colo, better to not take ur chances - will he emp all my ht or not @_@ | ||
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
Late game, the build time increase won't be too much of an issue but tanks doing less damage to non-armored units is huugge. Zealots easily needing 5 shots to die from tank fire (from 4 or 3 if they took any damage to HP) is easily worth the added build time. It should be much much easier for Protoss to takeout fortified positions now, dramatically changing the mid-game by allowing Protoss to be a far more offensive.. | ||
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Nokt
Australia3 Posts
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NadeDawg
Germany65 Posts
It's 5 seconds in game on normal speed, so on faster - which is "normal" speed for all games it's about 2,5sec, it's really barely any difference 5 seconds are 5 seconds, Terran's units won't build slower just because we're playing on faster gamespeed where 5 seconds are less than 4 :D It's a good amount of time. Anyway, gonna see this in practice first. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
The two games I tried this in were both ladder games where I was favoured. I got shut down by a MMM timing push (stim) and in the other game I got shut down by cloaked Banshee (couldn't scout him). I think I'm gonna make an early robo from now on to be safe. | ||
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Shron
United States162 Posts
I guess it's all the better that nobody know about it >:D Also, does anyone have a replay of this build shutting down a nicely executed marine/ghost bratOK push? I want to post it in another thread to help convince some people to try this build. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
It works  Well I actually I was somewhat lucky since I only got attacked after the res advantage kicked in but still... this exp is so damn early its unbelievable.And the funny thing is you can get that 2nd and 3rd gateway up really quick, so there really is just a very small window when u can not reinforce that well. afterwards u can spam zealots SOOO badly. Well together with gnials stalker void build, definitely the absolute best builds for pvt. thx for the nice build its really neat and works out so well, even the timings and having an fe as protoss is simply awesome. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
14 pool (14 gate), single gas, immediate expo, then cut probes/drones, use your macro mechanic (SL/chrono) to build as many basic units as you can, expo comes up, half saturation right before the enemy push, you produce a big blob of units just as they arrive while your lair finishes. The similarities are very apparent. However, thinking about that, I realize that zerg are not threatened by emp. My typical TvP build (i play rand) is 3 rax mmg. I build 1 rax, add a tech lab immediately, research stim, add 2 more rax, one with tech, one with reactor. I make about 50/50 rine/marauder with a singular or maybe 2 ghosts. I've encountered P who have FE'd and I did beat them with it. I don't try to stop the expo at all. I just try to flat out kill them with 1 big push. I'm 700 diamond myself, so we might be a good match. | ||
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driftme
United States360 Posts
I'm the top of my silver ladder, but usually play gold players, i guess due to mmr (where are you guys seeing that by the way?).. anyway, here's a couple of the highlights: VS ZERG on scrap station: Moved out with a stalker and a few zealots after building my expansion.. just trying to make sure he didnt advance before I was ready, since even a couple seconds delaying an army is worth losing a couple units if it means my next production cycle is up.. took out HIS fast expand with zealots and left the stalker to see any advancing army (proxy pylon was on the high ground next to the natural, so I warped in some zealots to reinforce.) he came with roaches just as I killed his expo and was moving to his main.. some micro fun with zealots and 4 stalkers just to hold him off while my charge was chrono boosting to completion. when charge was finished, I was able to move in with 12 stalkers and i think 10 zealots.. won handily. VS TOSS (also on scrap station): Toss went for a cannon rush, messing up my expo. took out the cannons threatening my expo with a group of stalkers and zealots, then left them in the ground between main and expo while i rebuilt it, just to make sure he didnt encroach with his cannons again. all his cannons at that point were massed in and around that walkway with the vent in it, so i was able to keep the expo safe. I kept poking in with my stalkers to snipe a cannon or two and hopefully trick him into thinking I was sticking with ground. Meanwhile, I built two stargates and was able to keep chrono boosted void ray production at a constant fever pitch. flew over to him when I had 8 rays (1/1 upgrade plus speed in case he had cannons, to get in beam range faster and for general mobility of expo defense)... he was going rays too, but he only had 2 when I attacked. killed his base, then moved to his cannon mass and just a-moved once they were charged. WICTOREE!! I... love... this... build. I understand there are some builds it just wont work against. For those of you bringing up that as a reason why this build sucks.... show us a build that works against EVERYTHING and you'll have a valid point. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 31 2010 04:31 driftme wrote: Tried this build out today a little bit.. immediately went 4-0. However, I didnt play a single terran, it was 2 games vs toss, 2 games vs zerg. I'm the top of my silver ladder, but usually play gold players, i guess due to mmr (where are you guys seeing that by the way?).. anyway, here's a couple of the highlights: VS ZERG on scrap station: Moved out with a stalker and a few zealots after building my expansion.. just trying to make sure he didnt advance before I was ready, since even a couple seconds delaying an army is worth losing a couple units if it means my next production cycle is up.. took out HIS fast expand with zealots and left the stalker to see any advancing army (proxy pylon was on the high ground next to the natural, so I warped in some zealots to reinforce.) he came with roaches just as I killed his expo and was moving to his main.. some micro fun with zealots and 4 stalkers just to hold him off while my charge was chrono boosting to completion. when charge was finished, I was able to move in with 12 stalkers and i think 10 zealots.. won handily. VS TOSS (also on scrap station): Toss went for a cannon rush, messing up my expo. took out the cannons threatening my expo with a group of stalkers and zealots, then left them in the ground between main and expo while i rebuilt it, just to make sure he didnt encroach with his cannons again. all his cannons at that point were massed in and around that walkway with the vent in it, so i was able to keep the expo safe. I kept poking in with my stalkers to snipe a cannon or two and hopefully trick him into thinking I was sticking with ground. Meanwhile, I built two stargates and was able to keep chrono boosted void ray production at a constant fever pitch. flew over to him when I had 8 rays (1/1 upgrade plus speed in case he had cannons, to get in beam range faster and for general mobility of expo defense)... he was going rays too, but he only had 2 when I attacked. killed his base, then moved to his cannon mass and just a-moved once they were charged. WICTOREE!! I... love... this... build. I understand there are some builds it just wont work against. For those of you bringing up that as a reason why this build sucks.... show us a build that works against EVERYTHING and you'll have a valid point. This is a build that should only be used vs terran. You're playing awful players where anything is viable. Don't use this vs P or Z once you get better you'll lose every game. | ||
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Teeny
Austria885 Posts
I have to thank you for this strat. It´s definatly viable. | ||
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driftme
United States360 Posts
On August 31 2010 04:36 Floophead_III wrote: This is a build that should only be used vs terran. You're playing awful players where anything is viable. Don't use this vs P or Z once you get better you'll lose every game. I understand the landscape changes as you move up in ladders.. I'm playing mainly gold players right now, occasionally some platinum. But most of my opponents are not silver. But why wouldnt this work against a zerg player? If you manage to keep them from attacking you early on, and can shut down their first expansion, it seems like you would be WAY ahead and set for a sure win if you don't mess up. I fully understand the reasons this doesn't usually work vs toss, but if I see an opportunity, I'm gonna do it =] Although in those cases, probably any build would work. | ||
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altairian
United States105 Posts
Protoss has an extremely difficult time handling speedlings. Zealots are slow, and stalkers get completely decimated by speedling surrounds. Having a very early expansion with a low unit count to protect it will lead to you simply getting rocked by early speedlings. If you want to fast expand against zerg, you need to adjust for this by creating a wall with gateways/forge in front of your natural to prevent speedling runbys with zealots plugging holes. It's riskier to FE against zerg than it is against terran, imo. I much prefer using an early timing push with an immortal or simply a quick 3gate push and expanding while you push out against zerg. Typically a zerg player is going to be fast expanding and any sort of push is going to force them in to a defensive position allowing you to easily expand. | ||
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
Well played and gg | ||
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driftme
United States360 Posts
So yea, i've had a chance to play it against some terrans now and its great. I'm getting more comfortable with living on the edge for a few seconds and reinforcing during that first crucial battle. i like it. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 31 2010 07:29 frogmelter wrote: Wow I just lost to you kcdc using this build Well played and gg Ha, was that on on LT? gg, bro. | ||
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