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On May 20 2010 19:50 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 19:31 Yeld wrote:Im not really at the skill level where i would want to use gimmic moves, as there are tons of other things i can improve upon my gameplay without resorting to backstabbing my opponents base. Using a Nydus is not any more gimmicky than dropping with overlords or positioning your army correctly. I might read you wrong here, but I get the impression that you see the NW as a cheap way to achieve victory. As I see it, it is another tool in your arsenal, and if you refrain from using it because you think its cheap, then that doesn't help in making you a better player whatsoever. Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;? I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms. As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms. Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly. I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
Positioning and terrain advantage is "basics". If you have the best mechanics in the world, if you attack cliffs without air you will still lose. Having nydus worm gives someone mobility. The core of a zerg ground army (roach/hydra) are some of the most immobile units in the game off creep. So you only have a few choices as zerg:
1. Creep highways
2. Overlord speed and drop.
3. nydus worm
4. All of the above.
Having mobility isnt a "cute" thing. Its crucial for zerg play anything passed one expansion. Of course there are other ways to improve your play, but the point is, nydus worms don't require you to improve your play. They require a clever mind while being able to keep up APM.
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On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote:
I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
yeah that's not as necessary now that you have creep that gives 30% speed bonus.
i think it's better to be used to attack multiple bases at once.
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Nydus Worms are amazing, and if I could just figure out a way to queue drones to automatically mine through the network, it would open up insane potential for safe 1-base Zerg play, which is currently not viable except for early game rushes. They could mine the entire map from 1 base theoretically. If you wanted to be cute, you could even mine the opponent's base when he's low on minerals to starve him out (super risky though, just a thought). It's funny because I was trying it yesterday but I couldn't figure out how to queue them to go in the network, come out, grab the minerals, come back, unload. Nydus Worm, maybe a few Spine/Spore Crawlers and you've basically expanded except if they attack your expo, you can evacuate (can you move the crawlers through the network?), you don't lose much, and chances are you've got networks elsewhere/can easily make one and keep going as if you never lost a base and you won't suffer the huge drop in drone count/mineral loss in multi-base play.
Also, Nydus Worms + Overlord drops have really good synergy. I was watching Artosis play Zerg yesterday. He put a Nydus Worm near the opponent's base and built Spine Crawlers - not IN it but next to it on high ground, I forget the map because I only just started playing SC2. If he had Overlord drop tech he could just rally his units into the network, lift his units over and drop them. Much faster and safer for your Overlord and your units because the time in which you have to actually lift and drop your units with the Overlord is a few seconds, you spend no time flying over potential enemies who can snipe you, you don't have to use like 5 overlords to transport 20 units and generally Nydus Worms require an Overlord scouting anyway. It's also much easier to defend simply by putting Spore Crawlers to defend against drops - the units in the network will defend on the ground on their own, especially since you usually network Hydras. However, I would say Overlord drops are more cost-effective and faster to incorporate just because all you buy is 1 tech.
The main negative to Nydus Networks are that they cost a LOT to start up, if you make a network before you build an army, a timing push will crush you.
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On May 21 2010 01:00 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote:
I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play. yeah that's not as necessary now that you have creep that gives 30% speed bonus. i think it's better to be used to attack multiple bases at once.
+ the maps are so small atm that its basically faster to run to a place
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One funny use is to place the nydus inside the enemy base, but not have any units inside it. Usually he'll send all his units to the nydus, then i just attacked the front, sniped his expo and retreated :D
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If you can see the nydus worm burrowing in your base then you can hear the digging noise. Otherwise you will only hear the roar when it pops out.
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I have used NW to mediocur effect in the past, but their gas cost is far too high to be used as a standard strat, they need to reduce the cost of each worm to not include gas, and then we'll see them actually used all over the place...
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On May 20 2010 17:41 frogmelter wrote:
Another thing that I don't see zergs do is after you summon the worm and do some damage, you can retreat all your forces back in the worm
That way, you can avoid losing most of your troops while doing damage
something I haven't seen enough people do (makes more sense since they nerfed it, but still a viable strategy) is move spine crawlers through the nydus worm and plant them outside of it. you can keep a cemented back door to his base with base defenses that has more potential than a toss proxy outpost.
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On May 21 2010 00:38 scintilliaSD wrote:
I don't know why Zergs don't use Nydus Worms similarly to the way Nydus Canals worked in SC1 - as a way to defend their new expansions. I guess it has to do with the fact that the army is so mobile on creep now that you wouldn't really need it, and the maps are small enough for the Zerg army to move around from base to base very quickly. I hope larger maps come out that reward more SC1-style Zerg play.
I actually do do this... It works well, it surprises me that other people don't, as in seeing you don't have to sacrifice drones to do it anymore.
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I'm not even close to good (~17 gold division), but I have been able to use Nydus successfully in later game situations as a defensive strategy as I take over the map. Before a new hatch pops, I place a nydus worm right next to it and place a large portion of my army inside the network. I also load a few drones if I am smart enough to think that far ahead. In doing so, I can saturate a distant mineral field as soon as the hatch pops, as well as defend any of my bases as long as I see the opposition coming. IMO nydus worms are less valuable offensively because better players always seem to figure it out on time.
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Nydus only really becomes interesting in late game to abuse the spread of your opponent's bases and to help cover your spread out bases. It is not useful for direct attacks, drops are MUCH better for that.
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I don't have a training partner and haven't convinced anyone to try it but can an ally use your Nydus network?
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To everyone wondering if the nydus makes noise the worm while building doesn't but when the overlord starts dropping creep it makes some noise. I lost a worm because the guy heard the OL drop creep. I think it's worth it to load some hydras and drop them to guard the worm because if they see it they can destroy the worm really quick.
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On May 21 2010 03:23 Prdors wrote:
To everyone wondering if the nydus makes noise the worm while building doesn't but when the overlord starts dropping creep it makes some noise. I lost a worm because the guy heard the OL drop creep. I think it's worth it to load some hydras and drop them to guard the worm because if they see it they can destroy the worm really quick.
You don't need creep to place a nydus worm.
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On May 21 2010 01:16 slowmanrunning wrote:
something I haven't seen enough people do (makes more sense since they nerfed it, but still a viable strategy) is move spine crawlers through the nydus worm and plant them outside of it. you can keep a cemented back door to his base with base defenses that has more potential than a toss proxy outpost.
I don't think you can do that. You could move drones through, then build the spine crawlers though.
On May 20 2010 19:50 Madkipz wrote:
Just like rushing voidrays is another tool in protoss arsenal ;?
I agree with the fact that there is a fine line between utterly cheap and simply being more mobile, however rather than paying 300 gas for two nydus worms i would invest in either spire or hydra den and perhaps even get a few upgrades for the same price as two - three worms.
As day9 says. It is important to have the basics down and to understand all 3 matchups before you begin experimenting with terrain advantage, overlord drops and nydus worms.
Because if you can win without these cute things then when you finally start experimenting with them these cute things will become that much more deadly.
I agree that it is great and it can win you games but even in lower platinum, I just think that there are other ways to improve rather than corporate nydus worm and doom drops into your overall strategy.
The NW won't be worth the gas in a fairly normal close game that is low econ and high aggression. But if the opponent is deciding to tech and / or expo to drive the game into a longer game, there are good timing windows to punish them with the NW.
I understand the match-ups (as Z vs X) pretty well, so Its not like I just found the NW, clicked it, won a game, and decided they were good. I'm using them in response to the newer strategies than when it was used before. For instance vs the new style of Meching terran, or Stargates + warprays for P. I like to experiment with different play when there are new styles of play from other races, to see what they are weak against.
Honestly what drove me to experiment with them was the Meching Terran. Against terran its a good idea to put your nydus on a nearby Overlord's creepdrop so terran might miss with his scan.
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i like nydus'ing the enemy's LT cliff : the nydus "head" spawns creep so spines can be built immediately. works even better if you let the overlord (that gave you vision up there) dump creep as well.
the best part ofc is the ability to go back and forth.
indeed, the "1 unit per .5 seconds" is not suitable for large armies, but a handful of banelings can be quite effective for any expo
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lol I made a thread about this and zergs overreacting to roach nerf but it was closed due to being blasphemous or something against what other "top players" are saying. /facepalms
but yes, nydus worms are very, very good, and zergs refuse to use them STILL. You can build many of them and spawn worms simultaneously. It is sick.
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Once, playing a 2v2 as zerg, I pumped drones only and built a big spine crawler wall early, enemies were rallying near my choke to attack, I built a nydus in one enemy's base, transfered my queen and a dozen drones, dropped creep tumors,built spine crawlers, destroyed the base.
As zerg I always use Nydus network, I build it sticked to main hatchery then exits sticked to others hatcheries and strategic locations, in a mineral line, the creep prevent enemy to expand and I can flank him, a nydus cost nearly as much as 2 hydras but gives an huge advantage, I may be low on pop but my army is everywhere I built a nydus, I rally all hatcheries to the Nydus network, I always have units ready to pop out from a nydus.
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Zerg players: I don't really use nydus worms.
T and P players: For the love of god, don't use nydus worms!
interesting...
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It just seems so cheesy and it's something that won't fool a good player more than once. I could see it working on ladder right now but if everyone starts doing it people will be more proactive about spreading depots / pylons and spotting for worms.
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EPT
